The King's English???

[Foul Mike]

Today, while working in the oil patch, I heard a worker say things like;
"Me and John went and did some things together this last weekend."
"Me and the other workers on the tower got together and asked the safety officer about what we thought was a violation."
I am by no means an English professor, but would it not be more correct to say;
John and I went and did some things together this last weekend.
The other workers on the tower and I got together and asked the safety officer about what we thought was a violation.
Things like that grate on my nerves. What is correct?
Regards, FM

 

[Veer_G]

Re: The King's English???

Separate the people in the sentence:

"John and me went downtown."

"John went downtown."

"Me went downtown."

Sounds a bit like Tarzan talking, right? It should be "I went downtown," so put <span style="text-decoration: underline">I</span> into the original sentence instead of <span style="text-decoration: underline">me</span> to be correct. Read up on subject vs. object pronouns: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=39893

 

[Twitch2120]

Re: The King's English???

Grok like speaking

 

[Nachtadler]

Re: The King's English???

You are correct. In the subject of a sentence any people other than the speaker are mentioned first. The word "I" is always last. In the predicate of a sentence the other people come first, then the word "me" is last.

Veer G's link is good stuff. Like he suggested, just start cutting out unnecessary words until you have a bare bones sentence, then determine if it makes sense.

 

[cavscout1983]

Re: The King's English???

King's English is found in the South. The oft made fun of Southern way of speaking is a vestige of the King's English.

English is a bastard, good luck tracing its genes as if a birth certificate exists.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">King's English is found in the South. The oft made fun of Southern way of speaking is a vestige of the King's English.

English is a bastard, good luck tracing its genes as if a birth certificate exists. </div></div>

The King's (or Queen's) English is simply correct and properly pronounced English. Additionally, "The King's English" was a series of early 20th century grammar books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_English

"Received pronunciation" refers to English as it is expected to be spoken at the Court of St. James: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

 

[Victory]

Re: The King's English???

Well, if this is it old boy, I hope you don't mind if I go out speaking the King's

 

[Switchblade]

Re: The King's English???

Ah, language, coloquial dialect, and proper speaking are all not what they seem. Historical fact upon the matter shows that prior to the American Revolution, people spoke close to what we speak like now in the western educated societies.
The King's English, that stuffy dialect that one hears in England is nothing more than pop fakery that went farther than it should have by becoming trained coloquial dialect. It was started by those who wanted to distance their image from the common riff raff, the rapscalions, and peasents. It was nothing more than an act, that somehow became part of the language generations later, a natural progression from a fake accent that was learned from birth by the following generation of spoon fed babies

 

[pyplynr]

Re: The King's English???

Needs more profanity in those sentences to be coming out of the oilfield industry.

I've been in the oilfield industry my whole life. It'd be more like this if it were to come out of the mouths of my workers.

"Me and John went and did some sh*# together this last weekend. That sumbitch is crazy."
"Me and them other a**holes on the tower got together and asked that f^#*ing safety officer about what we thought was a violation."

Or all that in Spanish and I understand none of it.

 

[Maggot]

Re: The King's English???

Sheeit, ya'll mofo's donkno what de hail yalls talkin bout. Over heaya we speaks Mer'can, not no daym english. sheeit.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: The King's English???

America Slang, coloquialized by dialect and accent as well as ignorance and image(note Oakland California's ebonic dialect)

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: The King's English???

Jarjar, isdat you?

 

[Maggot]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">America Slang, coloquialized by dialect and accent as well as ignorance and image(note Oakland California's ebonic dialect) </div></div>

Ah yes, well spoken, my dear blade.

Tally ho, and we're offto the hunt.

 

[mexicanmatch]

Re: The King's English???

If y'all ever get to VA take a trip to a little island in the Chesapeake Bay called Tangier. That is were Frances Scott key was held prisoner by the British during the Rev war. That is were you will hear the Kings English spoken but in little different manner. If you can get a local to talk to you he will speak back words. Its very hard to write it down for you but it is very interesting. MM

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: The King's English???

Thanks to all.
I heard this on the TV last night and it raised my hackles. Coming from someone that I thought was in the highly educated group, yet there it was, scratching the blackboard for me.
There is a show, about Pickers and the one A'hole will say over and over,"Me and Frankie did this or another thing."
Damn, that really sets me off, scratching the blackboard or something like it equally annoying.
It really pisses me off when it comes across by someone who is in the elite status and I think they would know better. How did they get to where they are without proper English?
Rant over. Regards, FM
PS Pyplyner, all those other words were in the conversation too, used in the right context, I just didn't want to put them all up here and I use them too. Switch, you have got it I believe.

 

[Kells81]

Re: The King's English???

LOL if this gets on your nerves then you are in the wrong place man.... They arrived where they are at this juncture with this. An oilfield worker can make a fair amount of money with little to no education. Your average college grads do not do this type of work because it requires a fair amount of labor. This creates what you have. Not all Oilfield Workers are slow but it seems not all of us are Rocket Surgeons either. Why work for Min wage at McD's when you can make double and all you have to do is work hard.

BTW I have had the pleasure of working for some highly educated people and you would be amazed at how bad the grammar gets when they are pissed off. I.E. I have an Email correspondence with an American Brigadier General that I swear was written by a third grader. But he was pretty pissed off at the time because I didn't know the tail number of the aircraft bringing my Transfer switch to BFE Afghanistan.

 

[Wes_Mantooth]

Re: The King's English???

America man, 'cause "fuck you" sounds so much better than "shag thee".

 

[Veer_G]

Re: The King's English???

Years ago, when I was at college, I remarked to a Spanish professor that I was jealous of the advantage that another student had. This other guy, Lenny, was from the northern end of Manhattan, the child of Dominican immigrants. My professor looked at me and said that he had the same advantage at Spanish as someone with no education from the most despicable, wretched hole in the contiguous 48 would have at English.

Speaking a language doesn't make one any more capable at explaining why it works the way that it does, nor does it make one any more skilled at speaking it in a correct (read mutually intelligible between speaker and listener, with regard to accepted rules of grammar and syntax) fashion. I know perfectly well what someone means when they say, "I seen him, he done it." Improperly using the past participles "seen" and "done" in place of the past tense "saw" and "did," while irritating in the extreme, doesn't lessen what's communicated.

Many times, when speaking Spanish, I'm told that I speak correctly, more so than anything else because I speak with a strong trace of an accent from Spain. Speaking with a "mother country" accent may make some people melt, but a language serves its purposes best if it <span style="font-style: italic">completely</span> serves the purposes of the speaker. We say more than the mere words that come out of our mouths. Many times, when we speak, we're trying to communicate information about authority, or sincerity, or even membership in a given social class. If I'm trying to get something that I need from someone who wouldn't appreciate a high-tone approach, sounding like a Thurston Howell III isn't going to cut it.

By the way, the third accent in this series is a fair approximation of someone trying "to do" Received Pronunciation:

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3UgpfSp2t6k"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3UgpfSp2t6k" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: The King's English???

Veer_G, before being stationed in Honduras, I'd spent years cultivating a proper Castilian lisp. The problem was, the <span style="text-decoration: underline">straight</span> Hondurans I worked with didn't lisp (and looked at me funny when I did). Oops.


As a rule, your typical grammar nazi (such as I) is about as welcome as a turd in a hot tub, so I generally just plug my ears and grit my teeth until the danger has passed.

OTOH, a key indicator of a dead language is that it no longer is evolving. And a living, breathing, evolving vernacular is an indication of a healthy language.

Like all evolution, it's a competition, the survival of the best adapted. English in particular is a linguistic snowball. It's rolling down the side of the language mountain, picking up everything in its path, keeping what suits it and throwing away what doesn't. And whether a thing suits or not can and does change.

Military jargon is a perfect example. After Vietnam and before GW1, the slang was dotted with donations from the people of Vietnam. Didi. Ricky-tick. Dinky-dow. Mama-san.

After GW1, the old Vietnamese slang began being discarded wholesale, replaced with new from "the sandbox." Battle rattle. Muj. Haji. Jingle truck. Fobbit. Raghead.

So they might be saying "Me'n Bob wuz drinkin' beers last night" or "Can I git me a huntin' license here?" as an informed choice and not out of ignorance.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Veer_G, before being stationed in Honduras, I'd spent years cultivating a proper Castilian lisp. The problem was, the <span style="text-decoration: underline">straight</span> Hondurans I worked with didn't lisp (and looked at me funny when I did). Oops.</div></div>

I never did manage to pick up the habit of <span style="font-style: italic">seseo,</span> since my speech patterns were well enough laid down before I got there. Everything else common to the <span style="font-style: italic">Levante</span>, yes.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a rule, your typical grammar nazi (such as I) is about as welcome as a turd in a hot tub, so I generally just plug my ears and grit my teeth until the danger has passed.

OTOH, a key indicator of a dead language is that it no longer is evolving. And a living, breathing, evolving vernacular is an indication of a healthy language.</div></div>

I agree, languages evolve, and conservative linguists fight a losing battle against descriptives in a somewhat senseless war.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So they might be saying "Me'n Bob wuz drinkin' beers last night" or "Can I git me a huntin' license here?" as an informed choice and not out of ignorance. </div></div>

As I said before, speech is as much a matter of communicating information about socioeconomic status, desired or actual, as it is anything else.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: The King's English???

I suspect there's been a stigma attached to failing to speak whatever language was in vogue ever since civilization began. The English word "barbarian" is an onomatopoeia the Greeks used to describe anyone who didn't speak Greek because the noise they made sounded to the Greeks like the bleating of sheep: baa-baaa-baaaa....

Speaking of Southern English, there are towns and settlements in Appalachia where the dialect of the locals still has remnants of Middle English, which was replaced by Early Modern English in England proper about 400 years ago. Before immigrating to the colonies, their Scots-Irish ancestors must have lived in the more remote corners of the kingdom because the new English hadn't much affected them, and they have been living in relatively isolated (and insulated) pockets ever since.

Sgt. Alvin C. York was from one of those regions. If you've ever been to that part of Tenntucky, you know the dialect represented in the Gary Cooper movie is very little exaggerated, and is strikingly similar to what's still spoken there today.

 

[Tough Guy]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Foul Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks to all.
I heard this on the TV last night and it raised my hackles. Coming from someone that I thought was in the highly educated group, yet there it was, scratching the blackboard for me.
There is a show, about Pickers and the one A'hole will say over and over,"Me and Frankie did this or another thing."
Damn, that really sets me off, scratching the blackboard or something like it equally annoying.
It really pisses me off when it comes across by someone who is in the elite status and I think they would know better. How did they get to where they are without proper English?
Rant over. Regards, FM
PS Pyplyner, all those other words were in the conversation too, used in the right context, I just didn't want to put them all up here and I use them too. Switch, you have got it I believe. </div></div>

Your subject matter and demeanor remind of someone who once said... "We've become a nation of whiners and criers".

 

[Unknown]

Re: The King's English???

The use of written and spoken language in the USA has deteriorated considerably over the past 50 years. Previously, people were at least mildly embarrassed over seeming ignorant by their poor ability to speak or write well.

However, lately, it appears that ghetto speak, trailer trash talk, and all sorts of other lowly ways of speaking don't even embarrass their speakers. Some people are so hard to understand it is almost as if they are speaking an entirely different language.

A few examples:

"I axed him."
"He borrowed me $10."
"I borrowed him $10."
"We done went and got drunk."
"My baby dint do nuffin."

 

[Veer_G]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The use of written and spoken language in the USA has deteriorated considerably over the past 50 years. Previously, people were at least mildly embarrassed over seeming ignorant by their poor ability to speak or write well.

However, lately, it appears that ghetto speak, trailer trash talk, and all sorts of other lowly ways of speaking don't even embarrass their speakers. Some people are so hard to understand it is almost as if they are speaking an entirely different language.

A few examples:

<span style="font-weight: bold">"I axed him."</span>
"He borrowed me $10."
"I borrowed him $10."
"We done went and got drunk."
"My baby dint do nuffin."
</div></div>

I'll tackle the first.

<span style="font-style: italic">Aksed</span> as a variant of <span style="font-style: italic">asked</span> is an example of that which in linguistics is called metathesis. Rather than being hard evidence that someone is of a socioeconomic group in the proximity of which you would rather not reside, or that they know not how to properly speak English, it's simply a vestige of an earlier English that has remained regular usage here and there:

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19991216

Specifics on what is called an "s-cluster metathesis":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_consonant_clusters#S-cluster_metathesis

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The use of written and spoken language in the USA has deteriorated considerably over the past 50 years. Previously, people were at least mildly embarrassed over seeming ignorant by their poor ability to speak or write well.

However, lately, it appears that ghetto speak, trailer trash talk, and all sorts of other lowly ways of speaking don't even embarrass their speakers. Some people are so hard to understand it is almost as if they are speaking an entirely different language.

A few examples:

"I axed him."
"He borrowed me $10."
"I borrowed him $10."
"We done went and got drunk."
"My baby dint do nuffin."
</div></div>
I do believe, that you are referring to a time when Humility, Deference, Respect, Dignity, and Maturity were in existence. Those 5 attributes seem to have gone extinct some time ago.

And they call this 'Progress', eh?

 

[Veer_G]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And they call this 'Progress', <span style="font-weight: bold">eh?</span> </div></div>

Speaking of types of English!

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: The King's English???

y'all forgot to mention the classic:

AmberLamps


got's t' git me one'a them.

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: The King's English???

Fred C. D You are right about military slang, to the point that I believe that Ricky Tick came from the Korean era and stayed over.
There are probably other words and phrases that remain in that slang from all of the wars.
Thanks to all for your input, it has been interesting.
As far as the oil patch goes, I can hold up with the best of them and introduce a bad word or phrase here and there that sets them all back.
I am not called Foul Mike for nothing. Regards, FM

 

[Switchblade]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mexican match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If y'all ever get to VA take a trip to a little island in the Chesapeake Bay called Tangier. That is were Frances Scott key was held prisoner by the British during the Rev war. That is were you will hear the Kings English spoken but in little different manner. If you can get a local to talk to you he will speak back words. Its very hard to write it down for you but it is very interesting. MM </div></div>

Sir, that would not qualify as 'The King's English' simply because 'The King's English' was not in use at the time of The American War for Independance(The American Revolution led to this war). The King;s English, as it is known, is as I formerly stated, a made up dailect and speech process made up by upper class British who wanted a speech patter to seperate them from the rest of the riff raff of the world. This pop fakery, as it was, became normal speech through the generatiopns of children who grew up hearing it as natural language patterns and from there, each generation refined this King;s english as it is called. Historically though, it is nothing more than amade up dialect that became a norm for a demographic group of wealthy people.
I imagine what one would hear on that wee island would mor elikely, and properly be called,'Proper English', or English language as it woud be spoken by generations of people who spoke that particular dialect as a norm.

Also note, we cannot mix dialect with slang. The words of our uncles and some of you regarding mama san didi mauing with your money, and myself using that new slang about haj and the shithole sandbox arte exactly that, slang words, not as we are discussing, dialect and improper use of words in coloquial speech patterns

 

[mexicanmatch]

Re: The King's English???

Thanks Switchblade, I have been there several dozen times and was told by an old timer that it was as close to the Kings English as could get. I am sure what you are saying is true, I have enough trouble with American? English. It was also used as a penal colony for some time. Thanks for your in put. MM

 

[Switchblade]

Re: The King's English???

Shoot, I have trouble with American english! The dialects and colloquial pronunciations kick my ass along with the heavy infusion of colloquial slang. Although I myself try to use proper language, my own Nor-Cal slang and dialect slip in a lot with USMC/US Army polished swearing

 

[Veer_G]

Re: The King's English???

You guys are killing me. You're making it sound as if it were some sort of plot on the part of the upper crust. I've had to reexamine my own understanding of the phenomenon (having taught ESL in the past here and abroad I have a bit of direct experience, as it was once vastly the preferred accent on the Continent). I think it can be expressed more along the lines of the various English accents that we've heard from newscasters at the network level for years.

This guy talks about it a bit ...

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RCrtzdK23pk"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RCrtzdK23pk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

... which is pretty much a riff on all the information on this page:

http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/case-studies/received-pronunciation/

 

[Maggot]

Re: The King's English???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mexican match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If y'all ever get to VA take a trip to a little island in the Chesapeake Bay called Tangier. That is were Frances Scott key was held prisoner by the British during the Rev war. That is were you will hear the Kings English spoken but in little different manner. If you can get a local to talk to you he will speak back words. Its very hard to write it down for you but it is very interesting. MM </div></div>

Sir, that would not qualify as 'The King's English' simply because 'The King's English' was not in use at the time of The American War for Independance(The American Revolution led to this war). The King;s English, as it is known, is as I formerly stated, a made up dailect and speech process made up by upper class British who wanted a speech patter to seperate them from the rest of the riff raff of the world. This pop fakery, as it was, became normal speech through the generatiopns of children who grew up hearing it as natural language patterns and from there, each generation refined this King;s english as it is called. Historically though, it is nothing more than amade up dialect that became a norm for a demographic group of wealthy people.
I imagine what one would hear on that wee island would mor elikely, and properly be called,'Proper English', or English language as it woud be spoken by generations of people who spoke that particular dialect as a norm.

Also note, we cannot mix dialect with slang. The words of our uncles and some of you regarding mama san didi mauing with your money, and myself using that new slang about haj and the shithole sandbox arte exactly that, slang words, not as we are discussing, dialect and improper use of words in coloquial speech patterns </div></div>

Not unlike the Germans who have low german, which is quite gutteral, and high german, in which they use the tounge a lot more.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: The King's English???

per Veer's video, I rest my case. Call it what you will, but the language used by upper crust is indeed an adopted pronunciation which as the man stated, is learned and passed down. Some changes ovvured since the 19th century, but my bet is it still holds well in upper crust society. Kind of like the way this Indian kid speaks at school who for some reason decided to leave Oxford and come here(WTF???). The kid dresses like a Brit, speaks like a Brit, and from what I can tell, acts like a Brit(based upon my dealings with a certain attache/liason from my old unit...Oxford schooled, Old Brigade trained)