The lands

[Bwhntr53]

Ok. So finally I have been able to get everything I need to get started reloading. I have what I need to find my cartridge overall length, my measurement to the lands of my rifle, etc. I searched for an answer to my question but did not find what I was looking for unless I was looking in the wrong place. My question is: What is a safe measurement away from the lands of my rifle is a safe place to start. I do not want to start jammed into the lands because I know that it will create a lot of pressure from what I have read. Thanks for the advice.
Bwhntr53

 

[rockchalk06]

Since finding Jam and shelving the comparator tool to try and find lands, my life's been easier.

That said, .020" is a safe place to start. That's what I do. I end up usually going further to comply with mag length though.

 

[Bwhntr53]

Since finding Jam and shelving the comparator tool to try and find lands, my life's been easier.

That said, .020" is a safe place to start. That's what I do. I end up usually going further to comply with mag length though.

Thanks.
Bwhntr53

 

[918v]

I don’t understand why people are so set on being so close to the lands. Why can’t you first learn how to assemble a round correctly at saami coal before trying stuff you don’t know anything about.

.020” off the lands gives you no advantage with anything. It is an arbitrary number which almost always results in having to single feed the round because it’s too long to fit in the mag.

 

[Bwhntr53]

I don’t understand why people are so set on being so close to the lands. Why can’t you first learn how to assemble a round correctly at saami coal before trying stuff you don’t know anything about.

.020” off the lands gives you no advantage with anything. It is an arbitrary number which almost always results in having to single feed the round because it’s too long to fit in the mag.

This is my plan. To start with the Hornady Reloading Book and go from there. Measuring the magazine clip is the first step before ever starting. Otherwise you have not only wasted time but money as well. Obviously if a reload doesn't work through your magazine you have nothing. My question was being far enough from the lands as a starting point so as not to blow your face off and your rifle up as well.

 

[isofahunter]

I don’t understand why people are so set on being so close to the lands. Why can’t you first learn how to assemble a round correctly at saami coal before trying stuff you don’t know anything about.

.020” off the lands gives you no advantage with anything. It is an arbitrary number which almost always results in having to single feed the round because it’s too long to fit in the mag.

Amen brother.

 

[SporterII]

Learn to assemble rounds knowing how they fit your chamber. Learn to assemble rounds that you understand that they fit, and why.
What’s wrong with that.

 

[Bwhntr53]

Learn to assemble rounds knowing how they fit your chamber. Learn to assemble rounds that you understand that they fit, and why.
What’s wrong with that.

Nothing at all. Was just looking for advice as a newbie reloader. I can and have read a lot. Just looking for advice. Something instead of a video or book. Real life reloaders. Those tried and trued.

 

[SporterII]

As a new loader, I started all my rounds at .018”
If I wanted .015 they would average 18-20. If I wanted .020....,
It works for me 10000 rds later. Amax and SMK and 105 hybrids.
That’s what I do in my house.
You can learn what works for you with experience.
Knowing all the dimensions is rudimentary.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Knowing where your lands are is important so you don’t load too long and end up with an action full of powder when you try to eject an unfired round....

Being able to measure your lands will also help you keep track of throat erosion.

Seating to jam is supposed to increase pressure, so if you are working out your max powder load jammed then any amount of jump “should” be lower pressure and therefore safer for your final load development.

Actually loading to the lands after an initial pressure test is debatable as most projectiles WILL group tighter with an amount of jump (which will vary between types).

Depending on freebore and ogive shape, not all projectiles will even reach the lands anyway, but you wont know until you know and knowing is half the battle.

 

[308pirate]

This is my plan. To start with the Hornady Reloading Book and go from there. Measuring the magazine clip is the first step before ever starting. Otherwise you have not only wasted time but money as well. Obviously if a reload doesn't work through your magazine you have nothing. My question was being far enough from the lands as a starting point so as not to blow your face off and your rifle up as well.

Before you get too wrapped up around the axle based on conventional wisdom, you might want to read this and think it through: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020...4hTRrT_PmM8ytbl2Q7B4eSp9AjxxxX8m-U_gUuXUsqxyo

I'm starting to think that this jump business is far less relevant to the kind of shooting that we do than most people think it is. A lot of the reloading bullshit out there comes from the benchrest world and other than the fact that they are shooting a rifle there's hardly anything in common between benchrest and any practical rifle discipline.

As I've gained experience (through my own testing and that of others) over the 20 some odd years I've been reloading, I gradually have cut out or changed steps in my reloading process because not doing them (or changing how I do them) had no negative impact on the kind of shooting I do.

Note, I'm not saying you shouldn't know what length from base to ogive will result in contact with the lands. I'm saying the amount of jump that you load to may not be as important as so many seem to think it is.

 

[DellaDog]

^^ That‘s a great article that verified what I’d stumbled on after I found my BRA shot really well at -070 to -080. I had read Litz‘s article on finding the best seating depth with Berger bullets and noticed -010 shot well, but +- .005 not so much. But, -065 thru -080 shot just as well and was a considerably wider “node.”

Though he also mentions elsewhere that Hybrids are pretty jump tolerant so you could just start at -015 and not worry about the erosion.

 

[SporterII]

Yup. And to know it’s , that relationship, you measure it.

 

[MakeSawdust]

The wheeler method and the method Marc at sac uses are the two best methods I have used. There are youtube videos explaining both methods.

Also, while you are at it, watch Erik Cortina's videos on finding and chasing the lands. That is really all the info you need on bullet seating depth and tuning.

If you want to go down the rabbit hole, look up optimal charge weight, optimal barrel time, and positive compensation. Those are theories that attempt to explain, in depth, how all of this works.

Also, with a good blank chambered by a good smith, the worst loads will still usually shoot sub moa at 100 yds.

 

[Bwhntr53]

The wheeler method and the method Marc at sac uses are the two best methods I have used. There are youtube videos explaining both methods.

Also, while you are at it, watch Erik Cortina's videos on finding and chasing the lands. That is really all the info you need on bullet seating depth and tuning.

If you want to go down the rabbit hole, look up optimal charge weight, optimal barrel time, and positive compensation. Those are theories that attempt to explain, in depth, how all of this works.

Also, with a good blank chambered by a good smith, the worst loads will still usually shoot sub moa at 100 yds.

Yes, I watched these videos. Great videos

 

[hollywood1981]

Finding the lands is pointless when I reload now. I find better results when I use jam as a reference, and from jam take .030 off the top from there. Load my ladder test with charges. Use my chonograph to find my velocity node. Once I establish my velocity node, I will load 3 rounds with that certain powder charge, and work my way back .003 until I find my accuarcy node with the correct seating depth. Look for the accuracy node to have 2 tight groups at two diffrent seating depths next to each other. Once this is found I will load 5 rounds in between both seating depths and test. This should get you where you need to be.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Finding the lands is pointless when I reload now. I find better results when I use jam as a reference, and from jam take .030 off the top from there. Load my ladder test with charges. Use my chonograph to find my velocity node. Once I establish my velocity node, I will load 3 rounds with that certain powder charge, and work my way back .003 until I find my accuarcy node with the correct seating depth. Look for the accuracy node to have 2 tight groups at two diffrent seating depths next to each other. Once this is found I will load 5 rounds in between both seating depths and test. This should get you where you need to be.

So how do you know you accurately load to jam and then .030 off the lands without first measuring what CBTO you will jam at?

 

[hollywood1981]

So how do you know you accurately load to jam and then .030 off the lands without first measuring what CBTO you will jam at?

I measure it with a shell/dummy round that has been loaded with a bullet. Then I pull that bullet, then open up the bullet with a mandrel. This let's the bullet then move with a little resistance. I then strip my bolt, load the round with bullet. This is how I find the jam of the bullet. Then I use the comparator to measure my CBTO and subtract .030 off the top of that measurement, and work my way back.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

I measure it with a shell/dummy round that has been loaded with a bullet. Then I pull that bullet, then open up the bullet with a mandrel. This let's the bullet then move with a little resistance. I then strip my bolt, load the round with bullet. This is how I find the jam of the bullet. Then I use the comparator to measure my CBTO and subtract .030 off the top of that measurement, and work my way back.

Sounds to me like you are in fact finding your lands, which “is pointless when I reload now”?

 

[hollywood1981]

Sounds to me like you are in fact finding your lands, which “is pointless when I reload now”?

I'm measuring from jam not lands. I could care less where the lands is does not matter. Maybe you need to read it again. Lands and jam are 2 diffrent things.

 

[Bwhntr53]

So how do you know you accurately load to jam and then .030 off the lands without first measuring what CBTO you will jam at?

I was going to ask this same question. How do you know how far back your load works best before you find the lands as a reference point.

 

[Hoyt7mm]

I suggest watching these 2 videos. It took me more than 1 viewing to understand what Erik is getting at, but they were very helpful in modifying my reloading process




The lands move (recede) throughout the life of the barrel. Your seating depth 'node' will not change (if it ever does) at the same rate of barrel erosion. If you find jam, you only ever find it once on the barrel. Back off from that and do a seating depth test. Then you'll never need to measure the lands or jam again.

For sake of clarity, I consider "finding the lands" as touching them. For me, I refer to jam as max distance into the lands the bullets can be, which is dependent on both bullet geometry and neck tension.

 

[Bwhntr53]

I suggest watching these 2 videos. It took me more than 1 viewing to understand what Erik is getting at, but they were very helpful in modifying my reloading process




The lands move (recede) throughout the life of the barrel. Your seating depth 'node' will not change (if it ever does) at the same rate of barrel erosion. If you find jam, you only ever find it once on the barrel. Back off from that and do a seating depth test. Then you'll never need to measure the lands or jam again.

For sake of clarity, I consider "finding the lands" as touching them. For me, I refer to jam as max distance into the lands the bullets can be, which is dependent on both bullet geometry and neck tension.

I agree. From what I have read if my memory serves me right exactly like you say. Isn't it the throat of the barrel that eventually erodes away?

What amount of throat erosion means barrel is toast?

Just tossing this out there to see if any folks had info of their own to share. My current 6.5CM AI barrel is up to about 3000-3100 rds down the tube. In preparation for the inevitable replacement, I ordered a replacement a few months back. For yucks, I pulled the comparator out and measured...

www.snipershide.com

Practical Tips to Extend Barrel Life

With the number of “overbore” rifle cartridges popular today, barrel erosion is becoming a hot topic...

precisionrifleblog.com

.

 

[Jabot]

I don’t understand why people are so set on being so close to the lands. Why can’t you first learn how to assemble a round correctly at saami coal before trying stuff you don’t know anything about.

.020” off the lands gives you no advantage with anything. It is an arbitrary number which almost always results in having to single feed the round because it’s too long to fit in the mag.

260 -140 hybrids 15 thousandths off the lands mag feed.
6.5x47 - 140 hybrids 10 thousandths off lands mag feed
6xc - 105 rdf 20 thousandths off lands mag feed
223 - 75 gn hornady 15 thousandths off lands, mag feed
What kind of freebore u guys running

 

[High H2o]

For long range, I used to start on page 100 of Berger "s reloading Manual (1st) and follow their protocol of loading 24 rounds with 4 different coals, but I've found, in my limited experience, to load'em LONG and HOT! I was having trouble with my SAKO Finlite in 300WM till I got them touching the lands, and loaded it hot. Now I feel very confident out to 700-800 yrds, right conditions permitting...

 

[High H2o]

As a follow-up, I'll ask maybe a dumb question... It's easy to find the Max length for a round, but how about a Min length? Can you, within reason of course, load a round that's TOO short?

 

[Shootin Stuff]

I'm measuring from jam not lands. I could care less where the lands is does not matter. Maybe you need to read it again. Lands and jam are 2 diffrent things.

When you are loading to “jam”, you are in fact “jamming” into the lands. There is nothing else in that area of the barrel that you are “jamming” into.

Your description of how you find “jam” is also EXACTLY how you find your lands and is precisely what you are actually doing, regardless of what you THINK you are doing.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

As a follow-up, I'll ask maybe a dumb question... It's easy to find the Max length for a round, but how about a Min length? Can you, within reason of course, load a round that's TOO short?

I wouldn’t seat deeper than the bearing surface of the projectile, but as long as pressure is OK then I am not aware of any reason you couldn’t load a round shorter than minimum spec.

 

[hollywood1981]

When you are loading to “jam”, you are in fact “jamming” into the lands. There is nothing else in that area of the barrel that you are “jamming” into.

Your description of how you find “jam” is also EXACTLY how you find your lands and is precisely what you are actually doing, regardless of what you THINK you are doing.

No shit lol, I'm not debating that. Obviously you have to go thru the barrell where the bullet loads into you chamber to find either or. All im saying is I use the jam method to get initial measurement, I don't use the kissing the lands method. I take my jam measurement and adjust my seating depth back from there.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Finding the lands is pointless when I reload now.

I open up the bullet with a mandrel. This let's the bullet then move with a little resistance. I then strip my bolt, load the round with bullet.

I could care less where the lands is

No shit lol, I'm not debating that.
All im saying is I don't use the lands method.

I’ll just leave this here........

OP, don’t listen to this guy.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Before you get too wrapped up around the axle based on conventional wisdom, you might want to read this and think it through: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020...4hTRrT_PmM8ytbl2Q7B4eSp9AjxxxX8m-U_gUuXUsqxyo

I'm starting to think that this jump business is far less relevant to the kind of shooting that we do than most people think it is. A lot of the reloading bullshit out there comes from the benchrest world and other than the fact that they are shooting a rifle there's hardly anything in common between benchrest and any practical rifle discipline.

As I've gained experience (through my own testing and that of others) over the 20 some odd years I've been reloading, I gradually have cut out or changed steps in my reloading process because not doing them (or changing how I do them) had no negative impact on the kind of shooting I do.

Note, I'm not saying you shouldn't know what length from base to ogive will result in contact with the lands. I'm saying the amount of jump that you load to may not be as important as so many seem to think it is.

Basically this. While I enjoy loading and some of the more meticulous steps.....

For shooting steel, especially with modern software, you can literally load almost any charge weight or jump, and as long as its under an moa and 60 or so ES.......your ammo won’t be what’s holding you back.

Guys are literally winning matches with factory ammo that shoots no better than this.

 

[308pirate]

Basically this. While I enjoy loading and some of the more meticulous steps.....

For shooting steel, especially with modern software, you can literally load almost any charge weight or jump, and as long as its under an moa and 60 or so ES.......your ammo won’t be what’s holding you back.

Guys are literally winning matches with factory ammo that shoots no better than this.

It's just SO easy to blame ammo/gun/equipment.

When Bob Vogel crushes souls with a lightly modified Glock or Nils Johnasson with a slightly modified Canik (oh the horror)……………...well, those who blame their lack of performance on their pistol/ammo/holster/belt/whatever look like chumps.

 

[hollywood1981]

I’ll just leave this here........

OP, don’t listen to this guy.

All you have provided is trolling all my posts. So you are the last person anyone should listen too on this thread.

 

[hollywood1981]

Here you go, this is the way I load develope to start out OP. @Shootin Stuff since you want to argue with what i am saying.

 

[hollywood1981]

 

[Bwhntr53]

Here you go, this is the way I load develope to start out OP. @Shootin Stuff since you want to argue with what i am saying.

I just watched this video. The guy was doing nothing more than jamming his bullet into the lands. So when you are trying to find the lands in your rifle you are finding the jam of your rifle. Same thing.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I just watched this video. The guy was doing nothing more than jamming his bullet into the lands. So when you are trying to find the lands in your rifle you are finding the jam of your rifle. Same thing.

Not the same. Touching lands and being into the lands enough to stick a bullet is totally different.

 

[Dthomas3523]

With Erik’s method of finding “jam” you may still be into the lands when you come back .020 as he is measuring pretty close to being jammed far enough into lands to stick a bullet. That’s all he cares about, not sticking a bullet.

When using something like the hornady tool or the wheeler method, you are fine where the bullet just touches the lands.

 

[Bwhntr53]

Not the same. Touching lands and being into the lands enough to stick a bullet is totally different.

I understand, I think. Jamming the lands is pushing your bullet maximum into the throat? Touching the lands is basically what it implies. Am I right on this?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I understand, I think. Jamming the lands is pushing your bullet maximum into the throat? Touching the lands is basically what it implies. Am I right on this?

Depends who you ask. But in the context of the video, jamming is well into the lands(so there is a chance of sticking a bullet) and touching would just be touching.

 

[Bwhntr53]

With Erik’s method of finding “jam” you may still be into the lands when you come back .020 as he is measuring pretty close to being jammed far enough into lands to stick a bullet. That’s all he cares about, not sticking a bullet.

When using something like the hornady tool or the wheeler method, you are fine where the bullet just touches the lands.

I'm still learning everything I can. A storehouse of information here. When I ask questions I hope that others will read and get some information that they may need. Helping others

 

[SporterII]

Measurement technique is still a measurement. A baseline. Performance of the technique is another aspect.

 

[NCHillbilly]

When I start load development, I jam .010" into the lands to help me find the max charge for THAT load in that rifle. Once I have established what is the max charge, I can start seating shorter without fear of over charging, because pressure will actually drop as the bullet moves away from the lands. If you start short and increase coal and charge weight, you may inadvertently get into the lands with a too hot charge weight, which could give you a nasty surprise.

 

[Bwhntr53]

Ok. Got my Hornady Comparator today. Using a once fired case and the Hornady 120gr gmx I inserted the case and bullet until the bolt closed. With this picture I should be at the ogive of the bullet. 2.244 Using the Hornady Comparator. Right?
Caliper measured 2.88 COL after removing the case and bullet after closing the bolt, Hornady reloading manual says 2.71 COL., magazine feed is going to have to be 2.81 or less.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

The only time we care about COAL is to ensure your loaded round will fit in the mag, eject from your action and when comparing to load data for initial powder loadings (a shorter than book COAL will increase pressure slightly so is something to be aware of when starting your workup). From then on, the only measurement of any real significance is CBTO.

Was your bolt stripped of firing pin and ejector? Did your bolt close smoothly on JUST the fired case with no spent primer or bullet in it?

I usually slit a case neck on short headspaced brass and let the bullet gently seat itself as I close the bolt. Interestingly enough, shoulder location on your slit brass doesn’t matter as long as it isn’t causing drag on the bolt close as we are only after Cartridge Base To Ogive at this stage.

But assuming you slowly seated the bullet deeper bit by bit until your bolt closed with just a hint of drag towards the end then congratulations! It sounds like you have successfully found your lands. You can also soot up the projectile with a match and rechamber it, there should be 5-6 shiny little land marks evenly spaced around the ogive (depending on how many groove your barrel is) to confirm.

If your CBTO to touching the lands is longer than what will fit in your mag then that is fine too, it just means you have some built in jump in your rifle/magazine combo.
Subtracting CBTO at max mag length from CBTO at touching the lands will give you the minimum jump you can achieve and even though you can’t load to touch, at least now you KNOW you can’t load to touch and just as importantly, you have an accurate point of reference to Zero your CBTO measurements to.

Seating longer than SAAMI/load data is OK and has several advantages if it will still function in your rifle. It will also result in lower pressure for a given powder charge as there is more expansion room in the case.

It may not function in someone elses rifle if it is outside of SAAMI spec, but fuckem.
I didn’t spend all this time infront of the loading press so someone else can torch through my good handloads.

 

[Dthomas3523]

When you are loading to “jam”, you are in fact “jamming” into the lands. There is nothing else in that area of the barrel that you are “jamming” into.

Your description of how you find “jam” is also EXACTLY how you find your lands and is precisely what you are actually doing, regardless of what you THINK you are doing.

This is incorrect.

There’s finding a touch point (some call kissing, or other names) and then there is jamming which is loading into the lands and further than your touch point.

When you jam or load into lands, there is a possibility of sticking/pulling a bullet. Things like neck tension will dictate how far jammed or loaded into the lands will pull the bullet.

Finding and loading to your touch point will not stick a bullet (unless large amounts of carbon buildup which creates a jam situation).

 

[Shootin Stuff]

This is incorrect.

There’s finding a touch point (some call kissing, or other names) and then there is jamming which is loading into the lands and further than your touch point.

When you jam or load into lands, there is a possibility of sticking/pulling a bullet. Things like neck tension will dictate how far jammed or loaded into the lands will pull the bullet.

Finding and loading to your touch point will not stick a bullet (unless large amounts of carbon buildup which creates a jam situation).

So what exactly is the point you are trying to make here?

There is nothing incorrect about what I said, but if you are going to be like that then “jam” is just a heavy touch so he still found his lands and blew straight past the measurable, repeatable touch point and went straight to an unknown amount of “jam” (as per your neck tension remark, powder compression is another as is jacket material or lack thereof) with no actual value whatsoever. If your point of reference is dependant on several other factors then it is not a point of reference.........

The process is the same and the way the two components meet is the same, the execution is different and so are the end results.

How do you know how far “jammed” you are if you don’t know the measurement to a touch?

 

[salks]

The research Mark Gordon did on this was a real eye opener. He talked about it in the summit. Jump node of a bullet. A certain bullet will shoot very well at a certain jump regardless of powder charge, rifle, even different calibers.

 

[Dthomas3523]

So what exactly is the point you are trying to make here?

There is nothing incorrect about what I said, but if you are going to be like that then “jam” is just a heavy touch so he still found his lands and blew straight past the measurable, repeatable touch point and went straight to an unknown amount of “jam” (as per your neck tension remark, powder compression is another as is jacket material or lack thereof) with no actual value whatsoever. If your point of reference is dependant on several other factors then it is not a point of reference.........

The process is the same and the way the two components meet is the same, the execution is different and so are the end results.

How do you know how far “jammed” you are if you don’t know the measurement to a touch?

My point is, you don’t have a firm grasp on these things and you’re attempting to educate people.

Most people here aren’t jamming because in practical shooting, sticking a bullet is one of the worst things you can do. So, most here don’t need to know exactly where their touch point is because they aren’t jamming.

I’m going to strongly recommend you do more learning/reading and less posting until you have a better grasp of what you think you’re talking about.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

My point is, you don’t have a firm grasp on these things and you’re attempting to educate people.

Most people here aren’t jamming because in practical shooting, sticking a bullet is one of the worst things you can do. So, most here don’t need to know exactly where their touch point is because they aren’t jamming.

I’m going to strongly recommend you do more learning/reading and less posting until you have a better grasp of what you think you’re talking about.

I’m not the one advocating he jam anything, that was someone else. I have been telling OP to measure to touch, not to the point where he pulls a bullet...

Think about this for a second.
If you don’t know the measurement to touching the lands how do you know that for a given CBTO seating depth (+- your regular variance) wont have some bullets jumping, some touching and some jamming?

What happens when you are on the verge of pressure with a heavy powder charge, decide to load a little longer and end up unknowingly into jam?

What happens when you need to load some more ammo and have different brass, neck preparation process, lubing (or not) projectiles etc etc etc and you lose your “master” dummy loaded round seated to jam? Your new jam number will be different to the original and you have no point of reference from before.

By measuring to touch you have a REPEATABLE point of reference that wont change regardless of your brass prep or other variables.

You could argue that a smart move would be to write this all this info down in the first place, but a smart person wouldn’t use “jam” as a reference point either.