The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

[sandwarrior]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

I'm a little confused here. The length of the action is clearly short action. It is also a push round feed, not a controlled round feed. Because of the shadow you can't tell if it has a Remington safety or the safety is a Winchester style on the bolt shroud. S/N is on the right and "stamped" not "engraved". This indicates it is a post '63 short action Winchester. I was under the impression, he was given a M40A1 which is a Remington 700. I was also under the understanding the Marines never issued post '63 Win 70's. And why would Carlos ask for a non controlled round feed rifle if that was what he preferred?

Is it possible he is simply having his picture taken with a training rifle?

 

[BSully]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

the rifle is a 700k serial number receiver. all win 70s have stamped serial numbers. all win 70s have the number on the right side of the receiver. the rifles in the 700k range are post 64 and are push feed. funny enough the remington 700 is a push feed. with the supposition that the M40 is one of the finest sniping weapons around and is push feed, why would it be far fetched to think the Marines had M70s that were push feed and that one was used for the building of this rifle? the us government continued to purchase 70s into the late 70s.

it is what it is, the picture doesnt lie. the 308 match rifle is a long action 70, long action screw spacing, small mag box. the sn of the rifle is in the DOD small arms data base. the stock was not an issue as they were inletted the rte shop.

 

[Rainier42]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

Sandwarrior ... he wanted the M70 because that is what he used as his main rifle when he was a sniper ... a pre64 Win M70 long-action 30-06. Was his prefered rifle.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rainier42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior ... he wanted the M70 because that is what he used as his main rifle when he was a sniper ... a pre64 Win M70 long-action 30-06. Was his prefered rifle.</div></div>

Correct, But, this is a short action, push round feed.

So, it begs the question, "Is this just another training rifle?" Or, does the rifle in the picture have a different significance?

Edit:

BSully,

Sorry, I didn't read your whole post before moving down. I was not aware that the Marines or the U.S. Gov't bought, for any branch of the service, post '63 Win M70's. Not saying they aren't good, just that to my knowledge, albeit limited here, they never were purchased. Not at least as a sniper rifle. Rec services in any branch could have bought them. The RTE shop may have acquired one through this route?

 

[BSully]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

The 70's purchased in the 70's were all match rifles, International and or otherwise. They would have been in the system and easy access as they would have been in the shop already.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

Okay, so it came straight in through the marksmanship side. That would actually make more sense then.

For anybody in the know, how did Hathcock feel about the later model 70's vs. the earlier? As long as they were accurate it was all good?

 

[six 4 sure]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BSully</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the rifle is a 700k serial number receiver. all win 70s have stamped serial numbers. all win 70s have the number on the right side of the receiver. the rifles in the 700k range are post 64 and are push feed. funny enough the remington 700 is a push feed. with the supposition that the M40 is one of the finest sniping weapons around and is push feed, why would it be far fetched to think the Marines had M70s that were push feed and that one was used for the building of this rifle? the us government continued to purchase 70s into the late 70s.



it is what it is, the picture doesnt lie. the 308 match rifle is a long action 70, long action screw spacing, small mag box. the sn of the rifle is in the DOD small arms data base. the stock was not an issue as they were inletted the rte shop. </div></div>



Actually, if you look long enough on google images for a large enough picture you will see the sn# starts with an 8, and is six digits long, presumably putting it in the 800k range manufactured between 64-67. I believe in 68 the sn#'s started with a G prefix.



FWIW, Pre-64's all the same length.

Post-64's all the same length, until the 80's. Winchester didn't produce two different size actions until the 80's and buy then they were in the 1mil sn# range with a prefix.



My gut tells me that is a 66-67 Mod 70. If it is a 308, it just has a mag box with a spacer. Just like the 700k Model 70 I have in .243.

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

All the debating aside, this has been one historically educating thread thus far. I'll sit back and read with interest, 'cause you guys have these historical guns down a whole lot better than I do!

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

It may just be me but the action looks like a short action.

I have a pic here of 3 of my post '63 Win 70 rifles. The front one is a short action and post '80 as it has the 'G' prefix to the serial number. The second is an 800xxx S/N and the third is a long action again with 'G' prefix.

As noted the beveling out for the ejector port has been done on some models. I have, what I believe to be, a newer Model 70 stock with those bevels cut out.

I may be wrong, but the reason I keep thinking short action is the ratio of length of the rear ring to the ejection port. As you can see on my short action in the front the ejection port is just barely longer than the rear ring. On both of my long actions, the ejection port is considerably longer.

 

[BSully]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

As you were, had to go look. The rifle Carlos has in the picture in question is SN 859363. My rifle 8594xx less than 100 off. I'll see if I can attach some pics. Again the clip slot is very distinctive. 800k is post 64 in manufacture. Long action hole spacing on action screws and short ejection port.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

BSully,

Great pic. Something weird here. My rifle, in the middle of my pic is 8008xx and the rear ring is no where near as long as yours. For that matter, neither is my short or long action G's.

 

[BSully]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

Again, it is a special 308 match rifle, clip slotted receiver. It is specific to itself. Believe limited production at best.

 

[GLB]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

BSully what stock is that?

 

[TwoGun]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

Looks like 858863 hand scribed.

 

[BSully]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

Hand scribed? With what? A set of hardened metal stamps? Then yes, you're correct it is standard Winchester factory serial number markings. Compair the pic of my sn and the sn on the rifle in your pic. Thats how Winchester did them. The stock on my rifle is a McMillan marksman stock. The stock on the rifle in the pic with Carlos is a McMillan HTG ( M40A1) stock inletted for the m70 action.

 

[BSully]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

As far as the number on the rifle. You may need a better copy of the picture. 859363 and again stamped.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BSully</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, it is a special 308 match rifle, clip slotted receiver. It is specific to itself. Believe limited production at best.</div></div>

I apparently didn't post my update last night. I see the difference as the clip slot. And, you can see it in the original picture as well.
That is interesting as it isn't really well documented out here in the civilian world that the military bought post-'63's specifically made for the military. Meaning with a little searching you come across a bunch of stuff on the pre-'64 in military use. Not so much post-'63.

This has been a great thread. I didn't know any of this.

 

[Rainier42]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

sandwarrior ... did they buy for sniping or did the buy for competition back in the States?

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rainier42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sandwarrior ... did they buy for sniping or did the buy for competition back in the States?</div></div>

Good question. Are there any military or high power comps that would require the use of a speed clip? I could see the 200 yd. Highpower Service rapid-fire sitting stage as needing a speed clip. 10 rounds in 20 seconds? Or, is that one minute? And, you have to reload.

 

[Badgerord]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

I knew Carlos and thats a pic of him.

That rifle is a M70 Winchester, the pic was taken at Stone bay in the early 90's and the rifle was a gift to Carlos. He told me what the rifle was, in person, Win action, 308, McMillan stock Rings appear to be Lupy and the scope was a "Rescued" Greeny

I have an 8.5X11 hanging in my office that Carlos signed for me in 1995 at the SHOT show in Dallas.

Why do I think it's a Winny? Well the serial number is on the right side of the receiver, the rear bridge is too long to be a Remmy.

Marty
Badger Ordnance

PS Sandwarrior NRA high power matches have rapid fire stages and require stripper clips if you want to have a chance at winning and scopes aren't allowed so strippers work.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rainier42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sandwarrior ... did they buy for sniping or did the buy for competition back in the States?</div></div>

Good question. Are there any military or high power comps that would require the use of a speed clip? I could see the 200 yd. Highpower Service rapid-fire sitting stage as needing a speed clip. 10 rounds in 20 seconds? Or, is that one minute? And, you have to reload. </div></div>

In High Power Rifle Comp. shooting a bolt gun you have to do a reload during the relay. You start with 5 rounds in the gun. When targets appear your allowed to get into position and at that time close the bolt. You shoot your 5 rounds and you have to reload with 5 rounds. Stripper clip is the way to go unless you have a detachable mag. but before detachable mags. where around is was stripper clips only.

At 200 yards you get 60 seconds to get off your 10 rounds with a reload of 5 rounds.

At 300 yards prone rapid you again start from the standing position. When targets appear your allowed to get in your prone position and again at that time you close your bolt. In the 300 yard prone rapid you get 70 seconds with a reload of 5 rounds.

When I built my first across the course rifle it was on a Rem. 700 action (i'm left handed) and had the action machined for the stripper clip slot. That was back in 1990. There where no detachable mags. at that time being used in Hi Power rifle matches. In the early 90's there where a couple of guys converting .308win. SA guns mostly Rem.700 to use M14 mags and guys shooting .223 Rem. on SA 700's where converting them to use AR15 mags. That's all I saw back then.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[bpd459]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

Greetings,
The stock in this photo is a McMillan Dunlap pattern, which was used primarily for highpower competition. They made them ftom the mid 70's to early 2000 or so.
Take care,
John

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

Frank, Marty,

Thanks for those posts! It's kind of amazing that as late as the nineties, the old WWI to WWII systems were still up and running. Yeah, it took me a while to see that the length of the stripper clip notch was the difference in length between my 70's rear bridges and the one in the picture.

 

[Stranded Yank]

Re: The M70 Carlos Hathcock Is Pictured With...

Thanks to everyone for the posts and information! It has been great to hear from folks that have known Carlos and others who have been there as well. Again many thanks!

 

[Sargesniper]

When i was ending my tour and enlistment with the Marine Corps in March of 1967 i turned in my Mod 70 and saw the replacement rifles to be issued. This is the rifle and scope that was to be issued in April 1967 to the Snipers at Dong Ha, Camp Carroll. Hope this clears it up. SEMPER FI!

 

[pawprint2]

Guys maybe I can help solve this mystery. In the "Death from Afar" series vol V on page 191 there is a picture of Carlos Hathcock receiving a rifle for his retirement from the RTE Shop in Quantico. The book says it is a Winchester Model 70 with a green Redfield scope, and from looking at the picture the stock appears to be "Smear" pattern. The picture was taken in 1979.

Unless Ltc. Chandler is wrong (and I do not think norm is) you are dead on, I just look it up in my copy, no further discussion necessary!

 

[kraigWY]

Here is a picture of a M-70 target. It came with the stripper guide and bases for a scope. Its in 308, but basically the same thing. I got this from the CMP who got it from the Army.

 

[totenkopf]

USMC Take-off Mcmillan it was on a Pre-war model 70 46,xxx serial range, would have been from the first batch of M70's sent to the Corps.

Looks like a McMillan shilouette stock, not USMC. This type were issued in smear to us in the SEAL teams and civilians in the 1980s.

Mark

 

[totenkopf]

I just talked to DICK DAVIS at McMillans, no m70 stock was ever sold to the USMC...period. When the M40A1 stock were contracted they were for Remington 700 BDLs. Any mods were unofficial!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My very limited understanding is that Carlos obtained a commercial M70 .30-'06 sporting rifle from the Da Nang BX during his first tour in Vietnam. I suspect it had a heavy/varmint weight barrel, and I have no clue what optics or mounts were on it.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When i was ending my tour and enlistment with the Marine Corps in March of 1967 i turned in my Mod 70 and saw the replacement rifles to be issued. This is the rifle and scope that was to be issued in April 1967 to the Snipers at Dong Ha, Camp Carroll. Hope this clears it up. SEMPER FI!

Hey Sarge; In Spring of 1967, I was running the electrical generator at Camp Carroll; TDY from 11Th Engr. Bn, Dong Ha. My service number was in the 225XXXX range, and I was a newly minted E-4 Corporal (01/67).

Semper Fi.

Greg

 

[ArcticLight]

I asked this question a few years ago, the answer (From here) was indeed that it was his gift for leaving the Marine Corps.

That rifle is with his son now.

There was one that made it to the USMC museum though, forget if it was his or Chuck Mawhinney's

 

[reelman]

I am just looking at that photo and making some guesses.
It is not an M40 or any 700 action for several reasons.
Integral lug action, gas port on right side of rec, SN on right side of receiver over gas port. It is not a pre '64 70 because it does not have a claw extractor. It is also a short action, which was not available in the Pre 64 action.
That pretty much settles it as a post '64 short action in 7.62.

I'm pretty sure Winchester didn't make short actions until the mid 80's. I had a NIB M70 308 match rifle from the 70's that was built on a long action.

 

[NachtKracht]

The Marine Museum in Quantico has the rifle from Chuck M hanging in its collection. If i am not mistaken, one of Carlos H's rifles is laying in the museum at the NRA Whittington Center, New Mexico.

 

[mwhite]

i think the usmc built carlos hathcock C.O.,,,,E. Jim land with a commertive M40 when he retired from the usmc also.

 

[Peafowllady]

Hackcocks sniper rifle

I just spoke with the person who built hathcocks first sniper rifle when he went into the
marines.... It was a winchester model 70, 30-06 with a urnitil 8 scope....he worked for
winchester and made the gun for himself and winchester made him give it to carlos,
the bullet load was : Weight 180 gr, sierra boatail bullet with 55 gr of 4895 hodgins
powder with a remington primer with norma brass.

I may have spelled something in correctly but this is the correct information you are
seeking. He made the gun in 1958 or 1959 and loaded the ammo all through the v.n. War.
Carlos wanted extra hot ammo.

 

[Redmanss]

I just spoke with the person who built hathcocks first sniper rifle when he went into the
marines.... It was a winchester model 70, 30-06 with a urnitil 8 scope....he worked for
winchester and made the gun for himself and winchester made him give it to carlos,
the bullet load was : Weight 180 gr, sierra boatail bullet with 55 gr of 4895 hodgins
powder with a remington primer with norma brass.

I may have spelled something in correctly but this is the correct information you are
seeking. He made the gun in 1958 or 1959 and loaded the ammo all through the v.n. War.
Carlos wanted extra hot ammo.

I love the 104k member Hide.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

I just spoke with the person who built hathcocks first sniper rifle when he went into the
marines.... It was a winchester model 70, 30-06 with a urnitil 8 scope....he worked for
winchester and made the gun for himself and winchester made him give it to carlos,
the bullet load was : Weight 180 gr, sierra boatail bullet with 55 gr of 4895 hodgins
powder with a remington primer with norma brass.

I may have spelled something in correctly but this is the correct information you are
seeking. He made the gun in 1958 or 1959 and loaded the ammo all through the v.n. War.
Carlos wanted extra hot ammo.

Seems legit.

 

[MescaBug]

I just spoke with the person who built hathcocks first sniper rifle when he went into the
marines.... It was a winchester model 70, 30-06 with a urnitil 8 scope....he worked for
winchester and made the gun for himself and winchester made him give it to carlos,
the bullet load was : Weight 180 gr, sierra boatail bullet with 55 gr of 4895 hodgins
powder with a remington primer with norma brass.

I may have spelled something in correctly but this is the correct information you are
seeking. He made the gun in 1958 or 1959 and loaded the ammo all through the v.n. War.
Carlos wanted extra hot ammo.

After all these years, we now have a genuine source of information about Carlos and the M70. Keep us entertain.

 

[Redmanss]

Keep us entertain.

 

[MescaBug]

lol

 

[Weird one]

Just an FYI if anyone cares, I have an old M-70 that supposedly came from the USMC Depot that was closed at I think Hawthorn NV. It has a fibre-glass stock that was bedded, free-floated and marked IDEAL inside the barrel channel. It has a replacement heavy barrel in .30-06 ( unmarked ), iron sight blocks, unertl base blocks, black rubber recoil pad ( maker unknown but looks Pachmayer ) and standard win. 1 1/4" swivels and sn indicates mfg. in 1945. Likely just a target rifle but I also ended up with 2 M-1903-a1 NM rifles, 1 with a NM special stock ( shotgun buttplate ) both with unertl bases installed. Not classic sniper stuff but still cool.

 

[sandwarrior]

Just an FYI if anyone cares, I have an old M-70 that supposedly came from the USMC Depot that was closed at I think Hawthorn NV. It has a fibre-glass stock that was bedded, free-floated and marked IDEAL inside the barrel channel. It has a replacement heavy barrel in .30-06 ( unmarked ), iron sight blocks, unertl base blocks, black rubber recoil pad ( maker unknown but looks Pachmayer ) and standard win. 1 1/4" swivels and sn indicates mfg. in 1945. Likely just a target rifle but I also ended up with 2 M-1903-a1 NM rifles, 1 with a NM special stock ( shotgun buttplate ) both with unertl bases installed. Not classic sniper stuff but still cool.

Did you get those NM 1903A1's from Hawthorne too? My uncle worked there in the 1950's.

 

[peterh]

I am just looking at that photo and making some guesses.
It is not an M40 or any 700 action for several reasons.
Integral lug action, gas port on right side of rec, SN on right side of receiver over gas port. It is not a pre '64 70 because it does not have a claw extractor. It is also a short action, which was not available in the Pre 64 action.
That pretty much settles it as a post '64 short action in 7.62.

rth1800 is correct, it's a pre-64 Winchester Action in 7.62, the stock is a McMillan with molded in camo, that is the gun that was given to him as a present and is the one he is pictured with in page #41 of this post. I own a copy of the Photo at the top of this page, he personally signed it for me. These photos and others were done in an effort to generate money for him because he was really sick and needed financial help.

Note about the Redfield scope; These green bronzed anodized 3-9 scopes were no different than the commercial Accutrack available to hunters. Basically they have a plastic scale that moves up and down displaying distance. According to what is known about them the men used to lock them down at 9 power and that was it. Also it is said that the plastic scale could melt due to sunlight.

 

[sandwarrior]

rth1800 is correct, it's a pre-64 Winchester Action in 7.62, the stock is a McMillan with molded in camo, that is the gun that was given to him as a present and is the one he is pictured with in page #41 of this post. I own a copy of the Photo at the top of this page, he personally signed it for me. These photos and others were done in an effort to generate money for him because he was really sick and needed financial help.

Note about the Redfield scope; These green bronzed anodized 3-9 scopes were no different than the commercial Accutrack available to hunters. Basically they have a plastic scale that moves up and down displaying distance. According to what is known about them the men used to lock them down at 9 power and that was it. Also it is said that the plastic scale could melt due to sunlight.

That is definitely a "Post '63" action. No 'claw' on the bolt.