So in the "Precision AR" thread, it was discussed that in order to gauge a rifle and shooter you need a 20 shot group? I get this argument goes back 100 years as people always want more. But if we go back in time when Sniper's Hide was in its infancy, I tried enacting a 5 shot minimum on groups posted because of the older debate 3 rounds vs 5 rounds. Now we have 20 rounds thrown into the mix so what is necessary to be able to speak on the subject. If a person asks for an approximate value on a particular rifle system how do you respond?
Fast forward, we have the Kraft Data thread and target. Where we test an individual with 12 shots from 4 positions. 3 shots each position, grouping on paper for a score. Chris came up with this target to test people from various positions in order to help with competition shooting.
We used to say, 3 shots test the rifle, 5 shots test the shooter. So what does 20 do besides add more weight to the sample size? Sure a rifle barrel can have stress and walk after X number of shots. A shooter can get distracted or fatigued in shooting a 20 shot string and throw a few, so what is the end result of having 20 shots at 200 yards for record in order to speak on a subject?
Why 20 at 200, is it because someone likes that location at their personal range? I agree with the difference between groups at 100 and 200 is normally very noticeable, if you can do 1/2" at 100 odds are you are doing 1.5" at 200 unless you practice. 200 is a different animal from some shooters. But why this standard that nobody has ever followed, not once?
The question becomes, What are we really testing, Me, the rifle, or the Ammo... or all three? If I bought an AI AT rifle, and shoot factory ammo, what should I expect? AI doesn't really have an accuracy guarantee, they did, but it's like 1.25" when you translate it. So if I drop down and shoot a group of 5 rounds and measure 1/2" while I understand it's a meaningless single number, doesn't say, yes I can work with this rifle ? Don't people usually grown into a system, get a tiny bit better over time, refine the ammo, techniques, etc. So where and when do we use this accuracy standard to figure out what a rifle is doing ?
Do we really need to ?
Is there is a host of companies lying to us about the standard to expect out of their rifle? Why do we need 20 shots at 200, who are we speaking to, me or someone else. If my brain is happy with 5, why do I need 20 to prove my rifle fit? I am generally curious about the mindset here. Is it you are tired of "everyone" saying I shoot 1 MOA all day long with boring consistency? I get that, but then again, I know when to stop listening to people and can usually gauge performance by a combination of their words.
Where do you stand, I tried saying 5 shot group minimum, never happened, is this a case if you claim accuracy you better be able to show 20 at 200 or are those people unrealistic? If that is your requirement you do it, but do we need to hold shooters to a new standard ?
Tell me the target, I will make it, I am creating some new updated paper targets to post, so why not
Fast forward, we have the Kraft Data thread and target. Where we test an individual with 12 shots from 4 positions. 3 shots each position, grouping on paper for a score. Chris came up with this target to test people from various positions in order to help with competition shooting.
We used to say, 3 shots test the rifle, 5 shots test the shooter. So what does 20 do besides add more weight to the sample size? Sure a rifle barrel can have stress and walk after X number of shots. A shooter can get distracted or fatigued in shooting a 20 shot string and throw a few, so what is the end result of having 20 shots at 200 yards for record in order to speak on a subject?
Why 20 at 200, is it because someone likes that location at their personal range? I agree with the difference between groups at 100 and 200 is normally very noticeable, if you can do 1/2" at 100 odds are you are doing 1.5" at 200 unless you practice. 200 is a different animal from some shooters. But why this standard that nobody has ever followed, not once?
The question becomes, What are we really testing, Me, the rifle, or the Ammo... or all three? If I bought an AI AT rifle, and shoot factory ammo, what should I expect? AI doesn't really have an accuracy guarantee, they did, but it's like 1.25" when you translate it. So if I drop down and shoot a group of 5 rounds and measure 1/2" while I understand it's a meaningless single number, doesn't say, yes I can work with this rifle ? Don't people usually grown into a system, get a tiny bit better over time, refine the ammo, techniques, etc. So where and when do we use this accuracy standard to figure out what a rifle is doing ?
Do we really need to ?
Is there is a host of companies lying to us about the standard to expect out of their rifle? Why do we need 20 shots at 200, who are we speaking to, me or someone else. If my brain is happy with 5, why do I need 20 to prove my rifle fit? I am generally curious about the mindset here. Is it you are tired of "everyone" saying I shoot 1 MOA all day long with boring consistency? I get that, but then again, I know when to stop listening to people and can usually gauge performance by a combination of their words.
Where do you stand, I tried saying 5 shot group minimum, never happened, is this a case if you claim accuracy you better be able to show 20 at 200 or are those people unrealistic? If that is your requirement you do it, but do we need to hold shooters to a new standard ?
Tell me the target, I will make it, I am creating some new updated paper targets to post, so why not