Rifle Scopes The New Guy. Mil/MOA/MRAD Questions

[JWLevin]

Hola Amigos,

So full discloser here: "I have no clue as to what I'm doing behind a rifle with an expensive optic looking at targets past 500 yds". There she is. Honesty. Pistols? AR platform? No problem. Bolt gun with open sights? Again no problem. Last time at the range the wife dropped the bomb; she wants to shoot distance. Dream come true? Oh yea. Problem is I dont know anything about optics, MOA, MILs, or MRAD other than what I've found on forums or the Magpul video I ordered. Already got the Remington 700 SPS Tac sitting in gun jail for 10 days (stationed in CA). Now its time to find a scope. Leupold seems like a good starting point with the MIL/LE program. I THINK the Mk4 3.5-10 LR/T will work for our uses. Those uses being adventure races such as the 24hr Sniper Adventure Challenge, things of that nature. Also not sure on which turrets to order (1/4 MOA, 1/2 MOA, 1 MOA) and which is easier to shoot with a spotter. Any thoughts on this is very much appreciated!

-Josh

 

[fireEMT5]

JW,Welcome to the hide!Before the masses dog pile on you, check out this thread - http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/55703-optics-selection.html Do some reading on your own, then decide your honest uses, ranges you will likely shoot, expectations and finally budget. Once you have an idea of those things, come back and list them and you'll most likely get a more detailed response.MIL or MOA that really comes down to a personal preference, but the more important thing is that the reticle matches the turrets which will be describes as MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. Having this match will just make your life easier.No doubt since your new around here, some ass hat will recommend Counter Sniper scopes. Totally disregard this recommendation and anything else you hear from that reply - you are being fucked with - plain and simple. These scopes are pure junk and highly overpriced - you've been warned.Depending on your budget, you can get into some damn fine glass by looking at S.W.F.A.'s SS scopes, Vortex Optics, Bushnell as well as others.Want to go higher end - $1500 on up = Nightforce, Vortex Razor, Stiener, S&B, March, USO.You mentioned Leupy scopes in your post........ Have never used one, so I can't comment on them good or bad. I can tell you this though, Leupy is pretty far from most talked about brand around here, so take that with a grain of salt for what it's worth.Personally, I am currently running only SWFA SS scopes - 1-6, 3-9, and a 5-20 and have been very happy with all 3. In my biased opinion, they are a great value for the money and I've been more than happy with them.One other thing you may wish to keep in the back of your mind is customer service after the sale. Any scope no matter how cheap or expensive is just a mechanical tool, and they can all have problems. Two companies that I can think of that have no B.S. lifetime warranties are Vortex optics and S.W.F.A. (South West Fire Arms)....... there may be other companies also, but these two are the most mentioned if I'm not mistaken. For what it's worth comparing Vortex and S.W.F.A, many people will tell you SS scopes have better glass at a given price point, with the exception being the higher priced Vortex Razor line which many around here talk very highly of.Good luck on your quest finding glass to fit your needs.

 

[fireEMT5]

My appologies, I can't get the edit to insert paragraph breaks.....? I typed it up correctly, and above is the way it posts.

 

[Andy27AL]

1/4 moa or .1 mil is the standard for most. Exceptions would be benchrest guys using 1/8. The larger adjustments, 1/2 and 1 moa, do not give enough adjustment and are outdated and obsolete in today's world by general consensus. For most purposes 1/4 moa or .1 mil is the best choice.

 

[JWLevin]

JW,Welcome to the hide!Before the masses dog pile on you, check out this thread - http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/55703-optics-selection.html Do some reading on your own, then decide your honest uses, ranges you will likely shoot, expectations and finally budget. Once you have an idea of those things, come back and list them and you'll most likely get a more detailed response.MIL or MOA that really comes down to a personal preference, but the more important thing is that the reticle matches the turrets which will be describes as MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. Having this match will just make your life easier.No doubt since your new around here, some ass hat will recommend Counter Sniper scopes. Totally disregard this recommendation and anything else you hear from that reply - you are being fucked with - plain and simple. These scopes are pure junk and highly overpriced - you've been warned.Depending on your budget, you can get into some damn fine glass by looking at S.W.F.A.'s SS scopes, Vortex Optics, Bushnell as well as others.Want to go higher end - $1500 on up = Nightforce, Vortex Razor, Stiener, S&B, March, USO.You mentioned Leupy scopes in your post........ Have never used one, so I can't comment on them good or bad. I can tell you this though, Leupy is pretty far from most talked about brand around here, so take that with a grain of salt for what it's worth.Personally, I am currently running only SWFA SS scopes - 1-6, 3-9, and a 5-20 and have been very happy with all 3. In my biased opinion, they are a great value for the money and I've been more than happy with them.One other thing you may wish to keep in the back of your mind is customer service after the sale. Any scope no matter how cheap or expensive is just a mechanical tool, and they can all have problems. Two companies that I can think of that have no B.S. lifetime warranties are Vortex optics and S.W.F.A. (South West Fire Arms)....... there may be other companies also, but these two are the most mentioned if I'm not mistaken. For what it's worth comparing Vortex and S.W.F.A, many people will tell you SS scopes have better glass at a given price point, with the exception being the higher priced Vortex Razor line which many around here talk very highly of.Good luck on your quest finding glass to fit your needs.

fireEMT5,

Thanks for the quick response! Ok so the matching MIL/MIL MOA/MOA thing....

Leupold Optics Mark 4 LR/T 3.5-10x40mm (30mm) M3 - | Leupold Optics

That is what I'm looking @ with the TMR reticle. Would that then be in Mil/MOA?

-Josh

 

[thrusty]

1/4MOA or .1MIL turrets are what you should be looking at. Biggest thing is to have a reticle that is in the same unit of measurement. IE: If you go MOA turrets, ensure you get MOA reticle...makes things easier when you look through the scope and want to translate bullet impact to turret movement.

Leupy Mk4's are ok...I would get the M5 dials to match the MIL reticle. Personally, though, I'd spring for the Mk6 in TMR reticle if you're on the FED/MIL program. Glass and quality is much better over the dated Mk4 line.

 

[Ring]

moa or mil dont matter a ton, BUT its best to be on the same system all the other shooters are useing in your "sport".. and that would be mil/mil.. "mrad is mil"

the MAIN thing is matching turrets... mil/mil or moa/moa... mixed moa/mil is 1970's tech... dont do it...

 

[A300fe1]

I'd like to suggest getting on YouTube also and looking at some of the NSSF videos on understanding MOA and understanding MILS. I thought the magpul precision rifle video was going to teach a lot too but in reality they never explain anything about the basics of ranging or the differences between MILS and MOA. You have to know quite a bit about MIL/MOA before you ever watch the video. All that aside it's an awesome video to watch and you can learn a lot. You may notice, like a lot of other people have, that the video is kind of a very long advertisement for Horus reticles. They certainly do show a lot of different scopes and weapons systems.

 

[JByrd]

Bushnell Elite Tactical 3.5-21x50 G2DMR Scope ET35215GZ for sale! - EuroOptic.com

a set of badger or seekins rings and you'll be well on your way.

 

[JWLevin]

Thanks for the replies guys,

So from the first reply on I get the feeling Leupold isn't the best option for this. So the question becomes whether or not I can increase the guns bottom line w/o having to cook my own meals. How much more should the glass cost than the rifle? $723.75 out the door is what I got it for, rings, base, bipod, case yet to be bought.

What I've taken away from this, paraphrased; Match reticle to turrets = happy shooter.

-Josh

 

[Windburn725]

I had the SWFA SS 5x20 and it was an amazing scope for the money. Good glass clarity and matching Mil/Mil retcile and adjustments. Ill second first focal plane as well, much easier to use then second focal.

 

[JWLevin]

DFOOSKING,

If I where to put, say, a $1500-$2000 optic on this particular rifle by saving my "allowance" for another month or so would that be considered a good choice? I'm only asking because its currently @ best a $900 rifle when you add base and rings to the guns cost. I guess a better question would be this; Will the rifle (not myself or the wife) be able to shoot well enough to justify that optic?

Thanks for the posts guys!

-Josh

 

[Pinecone]

LOTS of threads here to help you choose.

I went with a Vortex Viper PST 6-24 FFP scope. It has worked well for shooting out to 1200 yards with a .308.

Vortex has a lot of features for the price. And superb customer service.

But you can't go wrong with the other choices mentioned.

But first thing to decide, what is your budget? Realize you can get good optics for well under $1000, or spend over $3000.

 

[Notso]

DFOOSKING,

If I where to put, say, a $1500-$2000 optic on this particular rifle by saving my "allowance" for another month or so would that be considered a good choice? I'm only asking because its currently @ best a $900 rifle when you add base and rings to the guns cost. I guess a better question would be this; Will the rifle (not myself or the wife) be able to shoot well enough to justify that optic?

Thanks for the posts guys!

-Josh

JW - You can never go wrong with getting the best optics you can afford. "Buy once, cry once". And even if the two of you as shooters are not up to the potential of the rifle or the glass - there is at least room to grow and you know you're not being limited by the gear. Also it depends on what rifle is your $900 rifle. I started with a $450 rifle (Rem SPS tactical) and after several lesser optics, it now wears a $3K S&B PMII and it shoots lights out. The rifle was FAR more capable than the shooter when I 1st got it.

As to glass - there are several good scopes in your $1000-1500 price range. I had a Vortex PST 6-24x FFP and thought it was really good for the price. It was certainly not the same as an S&B, but for $2000+ less - it was very nice. And for some reason there seems to be a lot of Leupold hate here - but my experience with their scopes from several friends who shoot Mk4s has been very good. So don't discount them from the list. Look at the new Mk6s - but they are more at the top end of the range.

Agree with all about making sure the turrets and reticle match. MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. MIL is much more common now outside of the hunting community. But don't get wrapped around the mental exercise of using the reticle for ranging. It can certainly be used for that, but with the advent of cheap laser range finders - the need for ranging with the reticle is almost moot. Where the reticle REALLY comes into play is using it for adjusting your shots and getting on target quickly with the follow up shot. That's why its so critical that the turrets and reticle match so you don't have to do mental gymnastics. If you see your 1st shot at 1000 yds hit in the dirt to the left - you will use your reticle to measure how far off the center it hit in both elevation and windage - and then adjust the turrets (or hold) that exact amount. Makes for very accurate 2nd shots if you do it right. And that is really where the FFP scopes are worth the money, because you can do that exercise above in any magnification.

Finally, if you can - go look at a range of reticle styles (Mil Dot, Mil hash, TMR, blah blah blah). Because much of that is personal preference and what your eye likes best. Some people find some reticles too busy, some too plain. Have a look at as many as you can before you decide.

Good luck!

 

[lifebreath]

Bushnell Elite Tactical 3.5-21x50 G2DMR Scope ET35215GZ for sale! - EuroOptic.com

a set of badger or seekins rings and you'll be well on your way.

+1.

 

[JWLevin]

Notso,

Thanks for the response man. Lots of good info there. Since posting this I have managed to read much of what was recommended and feel like I have a much better grasp of this new sport.
As far as the rifle goes, its a Remington 700 SPS Tactical ($725, gun, DROS, CA taxes), the rest of that $900 I mentioned is counting rings (looking at Badger, Leupold, or Nightforce) and base (looking at LaRue or Badger).
Really think it will come down to which scope I can get to fastest. Vortex, Leupold MK-4 or MK-6.
Again thank you for the advice!

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[JWLevin]

Guys,

After reading the above posts, doing some online research, and asking around work I've narrowed my search down to 4 scopes. The Leupold discount was to good to pass up on this buy, so Leupy it is. MK-4 LR/T 3.5-10x40(30mm) w/ M5, MK-4 ER/T 4.5-14x50(30mm) w/ M5, MK-6 3-18x44(34mm) w/ M5B2, or MK-4 ER/T 6.5-20x50mm(34mm) w/M5A2 turrets. Prices there range from cheapest to most expensive (MK-4 somehow comes out more expensive than the MK-6?) but there is only a $500 difference from the "low-end" MK-4 to the top. All scopes being compared are FFP with TMR.

So correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points here:
1) The 34mm tubes have more elevation
2) The 34mm tubes are the newer offerings and have better glass
3) x10 is sufficient to make hits on steel @ 800-1000yds without having to worry about mirage.

So in essence I'm asking you guys to talk me out of the MK-6 or into the 34mm tubed MK-4. The older MK-4's, to my understanding, are overpriced and I could buy cheaper from Vortex.

Thanks again guys!
-Josh

 

[Mayhem52]

34mm only means it has a larger tube. Any difference in glass quality or elevation quantity is totally dependent upon what the manufacturer elected to provide. The better makers will provide better in both, regardless of tube size. At this point in time 34mm is being used more for a gimmick selling point than for an actual increase in optical performance. The objective size will determine the amount of light that can get into the tube. The quality of the glass and the coatings inside have exponentially more influence on optical quality than tube size. I would want to perform an "outside in broad daylight" comparison between scopes before choosing a 34mm over a 30mm. Never, ever take the words printed in an advertisement as "gospel".

A 10 power scope will get you there but a 20 power scope can be dialed down to 10 if such is desired. It can also be dialed up to 18 or 20 for those smaller, more challenging targets. A couple steps down from max magnification is usually all that's needed to make mirage more manageable. Then again, a hot barrel generates more mirage than any scope can over come Leupy is a very good brand, but make certain you do as other have suggested. Don't mix mil and moa in the same tube. It will forever drive you nuts.

 

[Jaydee1445]

One thing I haven't seen discussed much here is field of view. The mk6 gives up 2x on the top magnification but FOV is 36.8 ft. vs 14.3 for the mk4 at the lowest setting.
FOV may be a mute point for sniper teams but IMHO would greatly help with situational awareness/target acquisition for a lone shooter. While my mission is different than yours, FOV was a major factor in my decision to go with the mark 6 for a SPR.

 

[bogeybrown]

I've used an old Mk4 3.5-10 with the mismatched turrets out to around 1200 on steel, so it can be done, but it's a PITA and even though I could HIT the targets at those ranges, I needed someone else to verify that I'd hit it because I couldn't tell if the steel was really swinging or if it was mirage. To deal with the turret/reticle mismatch I just had to tell my Kestrel that I wanted my elevation in MOA, but as [MENTION=45125]Notso[/MENTION] very accurately pointed out, I could only shoot a hold-off for a 2nd shot correction since the mental math of converting what I was seeing in my (mil) reticle into the proper dial-up on my (moa) reticle would have given me an aneurysm.
Of the 4 choices you listed, I'd be on the Mk6.. I don't have the current Fed/Mil pricing in front of me, but if I remember correctly it's still up around $2 (probably a few hundred less?). If it is indeed in that price range, the Bushnell ERS/HDMR series is a HELL of a scope to look at. It offers slightly more magnification with a few other reticle options. I've never owned/used Vortex, but I believe their Razor is in that same price ballpark and it's typically pretty well liked by the guys here that have them.
Even in the Fed/Mil price range of the Mk4 3.5-10 there are some FFP options to look at. At 10x max magnification I don't really care that my Leupy is SFP because it stays maxed at 10x (so the reticle is always "calibrated"), but if you're going into the higher mag-range scopes, do yourself the favor and get FFP.

 

[SoCal762Shooter]

You will appreciate the higher power optics outside of 500 yards. Is it necessary to have 15X or 18X to shoot 1000, no, but it just makes everything a little easier, target acquisition, hit verification, etc. You can always dial down your optic for the closer shooting. I frequently shoot my 17X optic down at 8 or 10 for close engagements.

 

[snowdog650]

If you can get the Leupold Mil/LE discount ... you should check out the Bushnell G2DMR on Promotive.

 

[Notso]

Guys,

After reading the above posts, doing some online research, and asking around work I've narrowed my search down to 4 scopes. The Leupold discount was to good to pass up on this buy, so Leupy it is. MK-4 LR/T 3.5-10x40(30mm) w/ M5, MK-4 ER/T 4.5-14x50(30mm) w/ M5, MK-6 3-18x44(34mm) w/ M5B2, or MK-4 ER/T 6.5-20x50mm(34mm) w/M5A2 turrets. Prices there range from cheapest to most expensive (MK-4 somehow comes out more expensive than the MK-6?) but there is only a $500 difference from the "low-end" MK-4 to the top. All scopes being compared are FFP with TMR.

So correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points here:
1) The 34mm tubes have more elevation
2) The 34mm tubes are the newer offerings and have better glass
3) x10 is sufficient to make hits on steel @ 800-1000yds without having to worry about mirage.

So in essence I'm asking you guys to talk me out of the MK-6 or into the 34mm tubed MK-4. The older MK-4's, to my understanding, are overpriced and I could buy cheaper from Vortex.

Thanks again guys!
-Josh

If its not too late and not too out of budget - I would spend the extra and get a Leupy with more magnification. Yes you can hit at 1000 yds on 10x. But I think you can be more precise with higher magnification. Unless your steel is the size of a volkswagon, a mansize steel plate at 1000x yds is TINY on 10x.

Your choice - but I would seriously look at at least 14-15x. Ideally 20x+ if you can afford it. Leupy is great, but if you get out of your budget to go up a higher mag leupy - take a look at the PST 6-24x or some of the other similar ones like the Bushnell, etc. They seem to be getting good reviews of late.

If you were only shooting out to 4-500 yds - then I would say you would be fine with 10x. But if your stated goal is 800-1000, I don't think you will be happy with 10x after a few times out.