The Postal Service and its Money Orders: A cautionary tale

[rg1911]

A bit more than a month ago, I bought a Nightforce NSX 8-32 scope from a Hide member and sent off two USPS Money Orders via Priority Certified mail, in one of those USPS window envelopes. That letter, and my money, are still listed as being In Transit to the destination.

And, contrary to what I was told about USPS Money Orders and how easy it is to get your money refunded if they are lost, getting my money back is going to be a long, annoying process. To begin, I can't even cancel the money orders and file for reimbursement until at least 45 days from the issue date. Then I'm told that the USPS could take up to 60 days to finally reimburse me. (I hope I misunderstood that part of the explanation.) I'm fortunate that I filled-out the money orders completely and kept all the receipts.

Basically, then, it seems the USPS can use my money, interest-free, for more than 3 months.

According to the USPS employees here, the most secure way is to send anything via Registered mail, because it is more closely tracked. It is, of course, also expensive.

This situation has been a bit of a rude awakening for me, and I'll be much more careful of using the USPS and its money orders.

So how did I finally get the scope, which arrived today? I scrounged up the cost of the scope (again) and sent a check via Registered mail and added enough extra so the seller could send the scope also via Registered mail. This added time to the transaction since Registered mail is slower than standard mail, plus my check had to clear. (Fortunately I wasn't in a hurry, since I'm recovering from shoulder surgery and can't do anything related to shooting, anyway.) Had I sent a check the first time and the letter was lost, I could have gone to my bank, cancelled the check in a matter of minutes, and had the replacement in the mail. Fortunately, the seller was patient, understanding, and helpful.

Richard

 

[Marinevet1]

If I purchase anything from this sight, or any other that cost more than $100-$150.....I will use a cashiers check.......easy to get from the bank, doesn't cost me anything.......F___K the USPS......

 

[Centuriator]

Forget money orders....that was first error.

 

[Cartman]

I've seen some sellers here asking for PayPal or USPS Money Orders. I'll not be using PayPal again. So would you pass on a deal over the USPS hassle?

 

[Steel+Killer]

I sold my NF BEAST on here recently for $3,100.00 with free shipping and insurance to the buyer and I let the buyer pay me via PayPal I sent the scope via UPS Ground fully insured for $3,000.00 the shipping and insurance cost me $95.81 from SC to TX, no way in hell I was sending a $3,000+ scope with USPS there tracking system is a joke UPS sent both me and the buyer an update every step of the way.

 

[lash]

I have used money orders to buy items on here and the truck has always been to use certified or registered mail. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've made it a habit since, well a very long time, to send important letters via certified or registered mail.

Actual high dollar goods go via UPS, packed double by me.

but thanks for the cautionary tale and post, however unfortunate for you. It's good to know for future dealing.

 

[Srgt. Hulka]

I've had the USPS loose a MO also. I went to file a claim with them, just like you. And like you, I got the 45 days blah blah blah runaround. So, for 45 days, you're absolutely helpless. The thing is, those MOs will eventually end up at the seller's house. Make sure the seller is keeping an eye out for it so he can send you your money back.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I think USPS money orders were more for the sellers benefit as they're harder to fake or some shit like that. I always see sellers listing USPS money orders as their only form of acceptable payment and always just assumed that was why. Sorry to hear about your trouble.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Maggot]

Realistically, if you consider the volume of items handled, and the distance involved, the USPS does a great job. I had a MO go astray, and yes its a hassle, but you will get your money. Ive had priority packages make itfrom Ca. to Va mailed Monday and got it Wed. fro $5.95. Try that most anywhere else.

 

[mrbig]

I had a PMO lost in the mail also,,they said if someone doesnt cash it in 60 days I will get my money back,,thay also said if someone besides who I sent it to somehow cashed it that I would be shit out of luck,,they could get me the info on where it was cashed but getting my money back would be up to me,,the 60 days came and went and I got my money back from the PO,,
not being able to stop payment on a PMO is a big enough deal to me to be a deal breaker,,if they wont take a personal check or a certified check from my bank then screw it,,I am out,,

 

[308220]

Ive never had any issues yet with money orders. And Ive sold nearly 40 items on accurate shooter. Im more cautious of paypal then I am of USPS. Money order or certified check when buying from me. Unless, the buyer has established feedback and wants to send it via paypal gift.

 

[kortik]

USPS is doing all right. At the end of the day, you'll collect what they owe you. USPS insurance actually works, based on my experience sending more than 10,000+ packages by USPS. Not sure about UPS or FedEx, both have a weird attitude to paying for potential loss.

 

[Redmanss]

Anything big money (over $500), I send in a large flat rate priority envelope. It always seems those get better attention and less likely to be lost.

 

[Strykervet]

You all do know sending a cashier's check is akin to just sending cash, right? I mean, there is NO recourse, at least with a PO money order you can get your money back (albeit later) if the check doesn't make it there (rare, never happened to me, been doing it for decades). I addition, if the guy cashes the check but doesn't bother sending you your item, then he just committed mail fraud and they take that seriously. And what makes you think a cashier's check will make it there when a PO money order won't? I'm assuming you are mailing the cashier's check through the same mail system?

I had a guy on here play fuck-fuck games with me for months and I was real patient. When I told him I'd run out of patience and had contacted the Postal Inspector and then they contacted him, I immediately got my order plus a "please let this go away" bonus if I called off the investigation. Postal fraud is one reason I use USPS.

I'm patient. I know I'll get my money back or what I ordered. Having a PO Box and a relationship with the staff at the PO helps too. I use them when at all possible.

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

Cashier's Check is made out to the person you want to send the money. It's not as tradable as cash and obviously requires a bank account for the money to go to and hence an audit trail. Coupled with emails, personal details isn't there as much evidence for supporting fraud and criminal investigation with the police as there is with postal fraud?

 

[Downzero]

I wouldn't do any transaction on the internet unless it was through paypal anymore or a credit card with a merchant account. If there's a seller on here who won't take paypal for a scope, buyer beware, it's a scam.

As a seller, of course I'd RATHER have the money order because it's as good as cash once it's in your hand. But I have also seen enough fraud in my time that the only safe way to buy something is with protection through a third party.

I had a money order lost a few years ago and my money was tied up, like yours, for a while. It was an annoyance. It's the 21st century--if you can't use an electronic funds transfer of some kind and send a tracking number or sign me up for a tracking email, sell your crap to someone else.

I understand Paypal is "anti-gun." I also understand that there is no other internet standard for funds transfers and until they do, it's Paypal or nothing for me.

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

I wouldn't do any transaction on the internet unless it was through paypal anymore or a credit card with a merchant account. If there's a seller on here who won't take paypal for a scope, buyer beware, it's a scam.

As a seller, of course I'd RATHER have the money order because it's as good as cash once it's in your hand. But I have also seen enough fraud in my time that the only safe way to buy something is with protection through a third party.

I had a money order lost a few years ago and my money was tied up, like yours, for a while. It was an annoyance. It's the 21st century--if you can't use an electronic funds transfer of some kind and send a tracking number or sign me up for a tracking email, sell your crap to someone else.

I understand Paypal is "anti-gun." I also understand that there is no other internet standard for funds transfers and until they do, it's Paypal or nothing for me.

Some folks don't take PayPal because they're anti-2ndA. It's not necessarily a scam...

 

[kortik]

I wouldn't do any transaction on the internet unless it was through paypal anymore or a credit card with a merchant account. If there's a seller on here who won't take paypal for a scope, buyer beware, it's a scam.

As a seller, of course I'd RATHER have the money order because it's as good as cash once it's in your hand. But I have also seen enough fraud in my time that the only safe way to buy something is with protection through a third party.

I had a money order lost a few years ago and my money was tied up, like yours, for a while. It was an annoyance. It's the 21st century--if you can't use an electronic funds transfer of some kind and send a tracking number or sign me up for a tracking email, sell your crap to someone else.

I understand Paypal is "anti-gun." I also understand that there is no other internet standard for funds transfers and until they do, it's Paypal or nothing for me.

+1.
I actually prefer PayPal, they have solid and very secure structure for financial transactions, although quite often, they do not really care too much what their customers really want. In regard to PayPal being "anti-gun" - I really enjoy the fact that I use them, "anti-gun" company, to sell our gun related accessories. When "anti-gun" people de-facto participate in the business of "pro-gun" people, it feels particularly good... Just my look at this situation from the other side.

 

[Downzero]

Some folks don't take PayPal because they're anti-2ndA. It's not necessarily a scam...

It's a scam and they're stupid. I work way too hard to send a few thousand dollars to someone with no way of assuring I get my stuff.

 

[coach4christ]

It's not necessarily a scam. I don't use PayPal, and not because they are anti 2A. I don't necessarily think I'm stupid either. If I'm selling something and the buyer insists on PayPal, we just won't make a deal. No biggie on my end.

 

[Erud]

I wouldn't do any transaction on the internet unless it was through paypal anymore or a credit card with a merchant account. If there's a seller on here who won't take paypal for a scope, buyer beware, it's a scam.

As a seller, of course I'd RATHER have the money order because it's as good as cash once it's in your hand. But I have also seen enough fraud in my time that the only safe way to buy something is with protection through a third party.

I had a money order lost a few years ago and my money was tied up, like yours, for a while. It was an annoyance. It's the 21st century--if you can't use an electronic funds transfer of some kind and send a tracking number or sign me up for a tracking email, sell your crap to someone else.

I understand Paypal is "anti-gun." I also understand that there is no other internet standard for funds transfers and until they do, it's Paypal or nothing for me.

Paypal can be just as bad for a seller as a USPS money order can be for a buyer. If I sell you something and you pay me via PayPal, all you have to do is complain to them that it wasn't as described or whatever (doesn't need to be true), and they will freeze my account, take the money back out, and do whatever they want while investigating the claim. It happens all the time. I won't take PayPal as payment, but I will use it to pay. If that means I'm a scammer and you won't ever buy anything from me, I guess I'll just have to Iive with that.

As for the USPS losing stuff, I've had USPS, UPS, and Fedex all lose stuff of mine. Eventually, they all got it sorted out. USPS priority is fast and cheap, so I use it for most stuff. I bought a rear sight from a guy in CA a few days ago. He dropped it off at the post office on Wednesday, tracking says it will be delivered to me in MN today. As of this morning, I have gotten 8 status updates via text message about the package's progress from USPS. Nobody else can do that for $7.00.

 

[boomer81]

I think the postal service is a joke of massive proportions. Im all for shutting it down. Hell let amazon run it. any other business would have went out by now if it was 15 billion in the hole. Also every time I go there I have to wait in line behind a bunch of illegals who are buying the same money orders and mailing them back to Mexico untaxed. Billions of dollars a year out of our economy like that. The usps is also a black hole of worthless employees. Some of the Worst customer service I've ever seen.

 

[rg1911]

As a follow-up to my original post, I finally was able to file to get my money back. Adding insult to injury, I was charged $11 to get back the money the USPS lost. No idea how long it will take to get the refund.

And, a business sent me payment, via Registered mail, for a rifle. Tracking shows that it left Memphis two days ago with no further information. I may be overly pessimistic, but I'd say it's lost.

Richard

 

[264win]

I don't want to hijack this thread from the op, but after reading all the suggestions to use PayPal I want to make a suggestion, DONT.
not only is a person committing fraud when they say the item is not a prohibited item ( almost anything gun related ) and it is, or uses the " friends and family" option to rip PP off,
But the kicker is this, for up to 90 days after your last transaction PayPal can withdraw up to $ 10,000.00 from the Account of the Buyer and or Seller. And if you dont have the $ to cover it you can be turned into collections.

​​​​​​This happened to me when I accepted PP as payment for binoculars. It took me months to get it straightened out and over a year to get it off my credit history.

Usps has plenty of issues but they do offer protection for both buyer and seller.

 

[myronman3]

i wont use paypal.

i bought a scope off a member here....

long story short....a phone call with someone will give you a really good idea about them....if they are legit or not. first reason someone gives me to doubt them,, i walk away from it in a milli-second.

moreover....i've been racked over in court for a divorce and i am still bent over a barrel backwards finacially. someone screws me out of 2000 that i've saved up for years.....i aint got that much to loose and i aint afraid of road tripping. and yes, i will only mail stuff to an address that i've checked out six ways from sunday.

could i still get scammed? i suppose. The vast majority of the hunting/shooting community are some of the finest people you are likely to meet. that, and a bit of common sense, and i've yet to be screwed.

as far as the post office screwing up....yeah...some of the warehouse shitbags take great pride in kicking shit around and throwing shit. pack it up good, and then pack it. up some more. when you can. throw it out of an airplane and it'll be fine, you are GTG.

 

[Shoten]

I'm confused about the Paypal issues... I run a Firearms modification, parts sales business. All of my transactions are done through PayPal. I've never had any issues, and have been doing so for the last 4-5 years. They clearly know what I'm selling/doing because of the business name, so I don't think they really care or pay attention. Unless someone reports you/your business to them for a fraudulent charge, I don't see what they're interests would be.

That being said, I've always shipped USPS Priority Mail w/ Insurance and Tracking... Never had a problem. I'll use another carrier at the buyers expense, but if I'm covering the costs, that's how it'll be handled.
Personally, I have no problem with someone's choice in payment or shipping. If they say they don't want to use PayPal, fine... But I do ask why? Sometimes it's as simple as they don't know how, and I'll explain exactly what they're options are.

As for the OP, that situation really sucks. Good luck with it, and glad you got everything resolved with the purchase, at least.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Bill Larson]

Bank Draft wire to wire.......

 

[JMGlasgow]

It's not necessarily a scam. I don't use PayPal, and not because they are anti 2A. I don't necessarily think I'm stupid either. If I'm selling something and the buyer insists on PayPal, we just won't make a deal. No biggie on my end.

Exactly, I can't stand PayPal or ebay. They both can go kick rocks.

And I've never had a transaction here or elsewhere go awry. If it seems like a scam, no matter the form of payment, walk away.

 

[craigos]

deal with people who have been on the forum for a long while, preferably with high post count and int he good guys thread. keep it simple - as for the USPS - they hire dimwits it seems, the less i have to do with them the better.

 

[unrepentant]

I wish they'd make a sticky out of my post. I've posted this on this forum in several versions several times over the years.

My experience comes from being a USPS window clerk employee for 3 miserable f'n years. The worst job I ever had, but I learned a LOT about USPS operations. The USPS could give a shit about your money order--all that matters to them regarding MO's is accounting. A MO is not treated as a safe method of payment. Inside accountability is almost nonexistent. Theft and forgery of USPS MO's isn't even tracked weekly. It may be monthly now--when I worked there, every quarter, a new 'hot list' of bogus and stolen MO serial numbers was circulated. *Quarterly*. If a money order is lost or stolen, a trace will not be started until 45 days has passed from the date of issue. The fee for initiating a trace (which in this case) would fall on the MO purchaser. Even though your complaint isn't that it was lost or stolen, your request is that a query about its' status be made.

What *will* light a fire under a Postal Inspector's ass is that you will be claiming mail fraud. If it involves a firearm, the appeal of your case to them is that much stronger. If they're chasing a $500 loss on a spotting scope, the urgency will be much reduced, but you should get some response.

Three delivery circumstances will attract maximum attention--loss in a Registered Mail transaction, drugs, and firearms.

This is how I conduct all my high-dollar internet purchases:

Buy and send a bank certified check or bank money order. (Not Walmart, not Western Union. B-A-N-K. FDIC.) Banks account for their money orders; most do it "periodically"--every couple days--they can tell you a day after your query if your payment's been cashed and where. Inscribe on the back of your bank draft "Deposit Only". That way, the seller will have to provide ID and/or deposit it into their own bank account--that action will give the Postal Inspectors and name and address.

Send your payment by USPS Registered Mail. Before you finalize your agreement, ask the seller to agree to send the merch by RM, and offer to pay the fees (~ $11 plus 1st-class shipping. It won't be cheap. And FFL's *can* send by USPS. Mine does it all the time.) *NOTHING except your own personal bonded courier is as safe a mode of transport as Registered Mail*. The short version of Registered Mail is, everyone inside the USPS who handles RM must sign for it. When it disappears, the last person to sign for it is responsible for explaining its' loss. The addressee also must sign for it, and provide ID which should be recorded by the postal employee. RM is slooow--5-7 days across the country--because of the lockbox transit. Indemnity is allowable up to $25,000. It is the bread and butter of the USPS. If I were shipping the family heirlooms, I’d ship it by USPS Registered Mail.

Postal Inspectors swoop on transactions involving RM. Fraudulent transactions conducted through the mail is federal, but conducted through Registered Mail, it's federal with a nuclear 'F'. All I ever had to do when I made a payment for a high dollar item was explain that I wanted to /guarantee/ that my payment arrived and that I, "and I assumed, my seller" wanted the same result from my mailed payment. No one has ever objected strenuously. Once in a while I was dealing with someone who was in a big hurry for the cash, but in that case, I'd ask, then why they'd accept payment by mail?

If you're the victim of a scam, you can then claim that you sent payment by USPS Registered Mail and were scammed. This is known as mail fraud; it’s a federal crime, and most sellers get weak-kneed when a Postal Inspector knocks on their door with that insinuation. Even in the antiquated bureaucracy of the document-paper-based USPS, you'll usually get a response from a Postal Inspector within days.

 

[rg1911]

Updates.

The business that bought my M1A has had to start an official USPS search for the missing Registered letter. This is both ridiculous and annoying.

In my case, I won't get my refund until at least 60 days past the date the money orders were purchased. I'm beginning to agree with boomer81 that we could be better off if Amazon took over the USPS.

Richard

 

[kortik]

Updates.

The business that bought my M1A has had to start an official USPS search for the missing Registered letter. This is both ridiculous and annoying.

In my case, I won't get my refund until at least 60 days past the date the money orders were purchased. I'm beginning to agree with boomer81 that we could be better off if Amazon took over the USPS.

Richard

Yep, it's going to be amazing to see Amazon delivering billions of letters for the current USPS price of under $0.50...
Regardless of some issues here and there, USPS is of strategic importance for the country.
Anybody who runs business and is involved in shipping has a pretty good idea why USPS should stay USPS as is.

 

[kortik]

About PayPal:

At some time last year, I was really trying to find an alternative to PayPal, because I've been really pissed off by some PayPal website issues, related to "New Experience" interface. I spent a lot of time reading about "5, 10 or 15 best alternatives to PayPal" articles, researched all of them and found out than absolutely none of them can be a real alternative to PayPal as means for doing business. All these PayPal alternatives suck even more than PayPal, lacking some very important features which business has to have to operate in an efficient manner. In the last 7 years, I did not yet see any material evidence of PayPal being "anti-gun". PayPal is certainly not perfect, but it works 99.5% of the time. If anybody knows of 100% comparable PayPal alternative for business transcations, please post about it...

 

[rg1911]

Yep, it's going to be amazing to see Amazon delivering billions of letters for the current USPS price of under $0.50...
Regardless of some issues here and there, USPS is of strategic importance for the country.
Anybody who runs business and is involved in shipping has a pretty good idea why USPS should stay USPS as is.

Yup. Fully aware of that. Think of the expressed sentiment as an acknowledgement that the USPS has some obvious problems to which it is responding in a manner that would put other businesses in jeopardy. Think about it: after paying the fee for two money orders, and the Certified, Priority mailing cost, the USPS loses the letter and then charges me a fee to reimburse me my own money; an action that takes 60+ days. In addition, I also had the extra expense of mailing a replacement payment via Registered Priority in the hope that this letter would not also be lost, and extra money to the seller so he could ship the scope via Registered mail. In short, the USPS has had me spend an additional $80 to fix *its* mistake.

So, while I can agree with the necessity of the USPS, I cannot agree that it should stay as it is.

Richard

 

[Ramius]

I use USPS because the Postal Inspectors become my thugs if I have a problem. They can do the knee breaking and rough-in-up of the idiot if they do not get my product to me.

In 40 years the USPS has lost TWO registered mail parcels for me. Everytime I say that they don't believe me. They say jewelers use registered mail to send and receive high dollar items. Well it happened, but with the amount of stuff they handle it's pretty secure. Everything is relative.

 

[kortik]

Yup. Fully aware of that. Think of the expressed sentiment as an acknowledgement that the USPS has some obvious problems to which it is responding in a manner that would put other businesses in jeopardy. Think about it: after paying the fee for two money orders, and the Certified, Priority mailing cost, the USPS loses the letter and then charges me a fee to reimburse me my own money; an action that takes 60+ days. In addition, I also had the extra expense of mailing a replacement payment via Registered Priority in the hope that this letter would not also be lost, and extra money to the seller so he could ship the scope via Registered mail. In short, the USPS has had me spend an additional $80 to fix *its* mistake.

So, while I can agree with the necessity of the USPS, I cannot agree that it should stay as it is.

Richard

Just to clarify what I meant - there is certainly room for an improvement at USPS. However, USPS should NOT be doing business under Amazon or the likes, cause then the prices for items like mail will certainly go through the roof.

 

[rg1911]

Semi-Unbelieveable Update:

The USPS just delivered the Priority Certified letter I mailed 3 months ago.

In the meantime, after waiting 60 days from the mailing date, the USPS cancelled the money orders and refunded my money (minus a $5.50 per money order processing fee).

I really am at something of a loss for words.

Cheers(?),
Richard

 

[Tiger83]

I wish they'd make a sticky out of my post. I've posted this on this forum in several versions several times over the years.

My experience comes from being a USPS window clerk employee for 3 miserable f'n years. The worst job I ever had, but I learned a LOT about USPS operations. The USPS could give a shit about your money order--all that matters to them regarding MO's is accounting. A MO is not treated as a safe method of payment. Inside accountability is almost nonexistent. Theft and forgery of USPS MO's isn't even tracked weekly. It may be monthly now--when I worked there, every quarter, a new 'hot list' of bogus and stolen MO serial numbers was circulated. *Quarterly*. If a money order is lost or stolen, a trace will not be started until 45 days has passed from the date of issue. The fee for initiating a trace (which in this case) would fall on the MO purchaser. Even though your complaint isn't that it was lost or stolen, your request is that a query about its' status be made.

What *will* light a fire under a Postal Inspector's ass is that you will be claiming mail fraud. If it involves a firearm, the appeal of your case to them is that much stronger. If they're chasing a $500 loss on a spotting scope, the urgency will be much reduced, but you should get some response.

Three delivery circumstances will attract maximum attention--loss in a Registered Mail transaction, drugs, and firearms.

This is how I conduct all my high-dollar internet purchases:

Buy and send a bank certified check or bank money order. (Not Walmart, not Western Union. B-A-N-K. FDIC.) Banks account for their money orders; most do it "periodically"--every couple days--they can tell you a day after your query if your payment's been cashed and where. Inscribe on the back of your bank draft "Deposit Only". That way, the seller will have to provide ID and/or deposit it into their own bank account--that action will give the Postal Inspectors and name and address.

Send your payment by USPS Registered Mail. Before you finalize your agreement, ask the seller to agree to send the merch by RM, and offer to pay the fees (~ $11 plus 1st-class shipping. It won't be cheap. And FFL's *can* send by USPS. Mine does it all the time.) *NOTHING except your own personal bonded courier is as safe a mode of transport as Registered Mail*. The short version of Registered Mail is, everyone inside the USPS who handles RM must sign for it. When it disappears, the last person to sign for it is responsible for explaining its' loss. The addressee also must sign for it, and provide ID which should be recorded by the postal employee. RM is slooow--5-7 days across the country--because of the lockbox transit. Indemnity is allowable up to $25,000. It is the bread and butter of the USPS. If I were shipping the family heirlooms, I’d ship it by USPS Registered Mail.

Postal Inspectors swoop on transactions involving RM. Fraudulent transactions conducted through the mail is federal, but conducted through Registered Mail, it's federal with a nuclear 'F'. All I ever had to do when I made a payment for a high dollar item was explain that I wanted to /guarantee/ that my payment arrived and that I, "and I assumed, my seller" wanted the same result from my mailed payment. No one has ever objected strenuously. Once in a while I was dealing with someone who was in a big hurry for the cash, but in that case, I'd ask, then why they'd accept payment by mail?

If you're the victim of a scam, you can then claim that you sent payment by USPS Registered Mail and were scammed. This is known as mail fraud; it’s a federal crime, and most sellers get weak-kneed when a Postal Inspector knocks on their door with that insinuation. Even in the antiquated bureaucracy of the document-paper-based USPS, you'll usually get a response from a Postal Inspector within days.

Great post! Should be made into a sticky.

 

[rg1911]

^^^^^^^^^^^

Second that! Should be made a sticky.

Richard