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Rifle Scopes The Ring/Mount scam
- Thread starter zfk55
- Start date
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can say this with the full authority of a manufacturer because I am a manufacturer. Among those things we make are a series of scope mounts, both aluminum and steel, and all precision machining for dedicated applications.
So the reason for this post/rant............
I'm having to buy a specific mount for a Premiere Heritage scope for mounting on a flat top rifle. Bear in mind I've not had to purchase anything like this in a very long time.
These mounts offered by various manufacturers are no more difficult, and some far less difficult to make than any of the mounts I make, but because they're a current "must have" to fit various state of the art optics, the prices are unreal.
I call it a mutual scam, and I fully realize and recognize the "what they don't know won't hurt them" mentality of a large number of current accessory manufacturers.
Now......... I'm going to whip out the checkbook and write a check in the amount of $200.00 for a mount worth a maximum of $69.00 and a manufacturing/machining cost factor of a nominal $42.00.
Rant off.
zfk55</div></div>
And your point is?
Question for you, if you make mounts that are as good as anything out there then why are you buying them?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can say this with the full authority of a manufacturer because I am a manufacturer. Among those things we make are a series of scope mounts, both aluminum and steel, and all precision machining for dedicated applications.
So the reason for this post/rant............
I'm having to buy a specific mount for a Premiere Heritage scope for mounting on a flat top rifle. Bear in mind I've not had to purchase anything like this in a very long time.
These mounts offered by various manufacturers are no more difficult, and some far less difficult to make than any of the mounts I make, but because they're a current "must have" to fit various state of the art optics, the prices are unreal.
I call it a mutual scam, and I fully realize and recognize the "what they don't know won't hurt them" mentality of a large number of current accessory manufacturers.
Now......... I'm going to whip out the checkbook and write a check in the amount of $200.00 for a mount worth a maximum of $69.00 and a manufacturing/machining cost factor of a nominal $42.00.
Rant off.
zfk55</div></div>
And your point is?
Question for you, if you make mounts that are as good as anything out there then why are you buying them?
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
Profit, make as much as you can. It's the American way. Our nation and it's prosperity are based on this very principal.
Demand and competition are the balancing factors. That's why big business loves to buy out the competition. Kinda narrows things down.
Profit, make as much as you can. It's the American way. Our nation and it's prosperity are based on this very principal.
Demand and competition are the balancing factors. That's why big business loves to buy out the competition. Kinda narrows things down.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
I wouldn't call the dollars unnecessary as you need to mount a scope to a flat top rifle. I wish everything was $50 too but the sad fact is they aren't and people aren't selling stuff for what it costs to manufacture. You should know that. You have a profit on top of that which goes to pay for business expenses and pay. Just the way things are. Probably a higher mark up on that scope you're mounting than the rings you are going to mount it with.
I wouldn't call the dollars unnecessary as you need to mount a scope to a flat top rifle. I wish everything was $50 too but the sad fact is they aren't and people aren't selling stuff for what it costs to manufacture. You should know that. You have a profit on top of that which goes to pay for business expenses and pay. Just the way things are. Probably a higher mark up on that scope you're mounting than the rings you are going to mount it with.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tooling up for a specialty mount is cost prohibitive, I'm not interested in taking on the manufacture of unrelated product lines and I have plenty of popcorn.
The point is a simple, pointless, frustrated rant about unnecessary dollars flying out the window.
zfk55</div></div>
.....say what.....
you got your little niche market....if you thought you could make good on your frustrations ...i'm sure you would....but me thinks your yap aborts your creativity......there is a seat for every asshole out there.....go make a new seat and market the heck out of it.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tooling up for a specialty mount is cost prohibitive, I'm not interested in taking on the manufacture of unrelated product lines and I have plenty of popcorn.
The point is a simple, pointless, frustrated rant about unnecessary dollars flying out the window.
zfk55</div></div>
.....say what.....
you got your little niche market....if you thought you could make good on your frustrations ...i'm sure you would....but me thinks your yap aborts your creativity......there is a seat for every asshole out there.....go make a new seat and market the heck out of it.....
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
There are cheaper options out there.
You can protest with your dollars (or lack thereof).
Appearantly the market will bear the cost, or else they would not be able to sell them.
As you yourself stated, it is expencive to roll out a new product. Perhaps with time, the prices will go down (once the tooling, R&D, market testing, etc. are paid for).
I do not begrudge a company for setting the price of an item at whatever they can get, if it to high, the market will tell them. If it is fair, they will sell.
Sucks, but thats the way it works. If there was no potential for profit on designing the latest and greatest, noone would do it.
I prefer people make money and I get the oportunity to purchase great products.
There are cheaper options out there.
You can protest with your dollars (or lack thereof).
Appearantly the market will bear the cost, or else they would not be able to sell them.
As you yourself stated, it is expencive to roll out a new product. Perhaps with time, the prices will go down (once the tooling, R&D, market testing, etc. are paid for).
I do not begrudge a company for setting the price of an item at whatever they can get, if it to high, the market will tell them. If it is fair, they will sell.
Sucks, but thats the way it works. If there was no potential for profit on designing the latest and greatest, noone would do it.
I prefer people make money and I get the oportunity to purchase great products.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$6K AR? Details
</div></div>
You'd think with a $6k AR he'd be accustomed to over paying by now.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$6K AR? Details
</div></div>
You'd think with a $6k AR he'd be accustomed to over paying by now.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
I assume that the price includes both AR and optics.
If that is the case, that is right in line with what I have in mine. If not, well...
My "cheaper" comment is saying that you don't have to use the latest and greatest QD type mounts. You can either run really tall rings or standard rings with a riser on the AR's.
I am actually running the riser/rings setup on mine (I have high end stuff though (Badger) but you could go less expencive just as easily.
For example, I have had good luck with the Burris XTR rings ($50 a set) and there are risers out there everywhere fo AR's (or any picatinny for that matter).
I assume that the price includes both AR and optics.
If that is the case, that is right in line with what I have in mine. If not, well...
My "cheaper" comment is saying that you don't have to use the latest and greatest QD type mounts. You can either run really tall rings or standard rings with a riser on the AR's.
I am actually running the riser/rings setup on mine (I have high end stuff though (Badger) but you could go less expencive just as easily.
For example, I have had good luck with the Burris XTR rings ($50 a set) and there are risers out there everywhere fo AR's (or any picatinny for that matter).
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tooling up for a specialty mount is cost prohibitive</div></div>
Looks like you have the majority of the answer to your whine right there, would you like cheese with that?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tooling up for a specialty mount is cost prohibitive</div></div>
Looks like you have the majority of the answer to your whine right there, would you like cheese with that?
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup. Free floated, and very close tolerances.
I should explain. <span style="font-weight: bold">This one is a custom mfg. from a military contract builder</span>. all except the receiver and buttstock hand made in his own machine shop.
zfk55 </div></div>
Norm Chandler?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup. Free floated, and very close tolerances.
I should explain. <span style="font-weight: bold">This one is a custom mfg. from a military contract builder</span>. all except the receiver and buttstock hand made in his own machine shop.
zfk55 </div></div>
Norm Chandler?
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My son just corrected me. Add the scope and it was actually $7,150.00 and the rings another $200.00,</div></div>
What the fuck?!?!?!?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and I guess it is right in the ballpark for this type of rifle.</div></div>
You guess wrong in my opinion. I have around 3200 into my Noveske AR10 including glass and it produces .5 moa
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My son just corrected me. Add the scope and it was actually $7,150.00 and the rings another $200.00,</div></div>
What the fuck?!?!?!?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and I guess it is right in the ballpark for this type of rifle.</div></div>
You guess wrong in my opinion. I have around 3200 into my Noveske AR10 including glass and it produces .5 moa
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup. Free floated, and very close tolerances.
I should explain. This one is a custom mfg. from a military contract builder. all except the receiver and buttstock hand made in his own machine shop.
zfk55 </div></div>
If this is the rifle in the picture, then the only things I see that are custom are possibly the barrel and gas block. The receiverS, stock, magazine, SWS rail, bipod, and most everything else all look to be readily available, commercial items. I really don't understatnd why this rifle was $6000, and not 1/3 that price. To top it off, the only military contract for Armalite AR-10s that I know of is Canadian. And they use a badger rail, not a "handmade" SWS rail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup. Free floated, and very close tolerances.
I should explain. This one is a custom mfg. from a military contract builder. all except the receiver and buttstock hand made in his own machine shop.
zfk55 </div></div>
If this is the rifle in the picture, then the only things I see that are custom are possibly the barrel and gas block. The receiverS, stock, magazine, SWS rail, bipod, and most everything else all look to be readily available, commercial items. I really don't understatnd why this rifle was $6000, and not 1/3 that price. To top it off, the only military contract for Armalite AR-10s that I know of is Canadian. And they use a badger rail, not a "handmade" SWS rail.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
I tried to get a local shop to make a flat top scope mount. They said no problem. All I had to do was draw up an autocad file. I drew it up and they told me it would be $80 an hour for programming with 2 hours as an estimate. Then $60/hr manufacturing cost plus material, and finally the plating cost. The kicker was that I worked there and would be running the program on a machine that I operate every day. I understand how it could fustrate you to spend a couple hundred or more on a mount knowing that you have the capacity to make them on your own. If your buy one and it ain't right you could have it replaced instead of firing up the machine and make another.
I tried to get a local shop to make a flat top scope mount. They said no problem. All I had to do was draw up an autocad file. I drew it up and they told me it would be $80 an hour for programming with 2 hours as an estimate. Then $60/hr manufacturing cost plus material, and finally the plating cost. The kicker was that I worked there and would be running the program on a machine that I operate every day. I understand how it could fustrate you to spend a couple hundred or more on a mount knowing that you have the capacity to make them on your own. If your buy one and it ain't right you could have it replaced instead of firing up the machine and make another.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
I have a Heritage on a Flat Top AR in 308... works fine and its no hassle at all...
Spending $6k for an AR10, then complaining about $200 for rings, I think you're bit confused.
I have a Heritage on a Flat Top AR in 308... works fine and its no hassle at all...
Spending $6k for an AR10, then complaining about $200 for rings, I think you're bit confused.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
Ah. Stewart Wilson brings two flavors of special sauce to the AR10 world. One is a working Carbine length gas system, the other is a revised ACOG sight height gizmo. A friend has had 3 of his rifles and said friend is not active duty.
When one signs up for the special sauce world then they get the sales pitches to go with them, sometimes of which are actually partially based in fact. Having been down the broader special sauce avenue you describe above and glad to have recovered my funds unscathed, all I can say is good luck and maybe a Super Sniper with some TPS rings could better support your needs.
Ah. Stewart Wilson brings two flavors of special sauce to the AR10 world. One is a working Carbine length gas system, the other is a revised ACOG sight height gizmo. A friend has had 3 of his rifles and said friend is not active duty.
When one signs up for the special sauce world then they get the sales pitches to go with them, sometimes of which are actually partially based in fact. Having been down the broader special sauce avenue you describe above and glad to have recovered my funds unscathed, all I can say is good luck and maybe a Super Sniper with some TPS rings could better support your needs.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
Really, I think you realized you were a bit taken by the rifle and now you're turning your anger to the rings...
Really, I think you realized you were a bit taken by the rifle and now you're turning your anger to the rings...
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
Why are people giving zfk shit for a $6,000 AR? Does anyone give people shit for a $5000-$6000 Gap Or Tac-Ops. Enough said.
Luck to you ZFK. Nice Stick.
Why are people giving zfk shit for a $6,000 AR? Does anyone give people shit for a $5000-$6000 Gap Or Tac-Ops. Enough said.
Luck to you ZFK. Nice Stick.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, Stewart Wilson. He's also the head of field instructors for E.D.M. He teaches Designated Marksmen to use LR rifles. Spends a lot of time traveling for them now. He's semi-retired from his own Mfg. business.He said he just sort of tired out. Too many years doing it.
We have the only one made for a Civilian.
zfk55 </div></div>
just a passing question. Who does Stewart Wilson build rifles for? The only 308 gas gun that i know of in the military is the Mk11 or M110 or variants of the Knight SR25. I believe LL was a little spoton about you realized that you got taken on the cost of the rifle and now are bitching about the rings
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, Stewart Wilson. He's also the head of field instructors for E.D.M. He teaches Designated Marksmen to use LR rifles. Spends a lot of time traveling for them now. He's semi-retired from his own Mfg. business.He said he just sort of tired out. Too many years doing it.
We have the only one made for a Civilian.
zfk55 </div></div>
just a passing question. Who does Stewart Wilson build rifles for? The only 308 gas gun that i know of in the military is the Mk11 or M110 or variants of the Knight SR25. I believe LL was a little spoton about you realized that you got taken on the cost of the rifle and now are bitching about the rings
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
You could buy a JP LRP-07 and a Premier (and a mount) for under $6000 and you got <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> for $7150+. Ouch.
You could buy a JP LRP-07 and a Premier (and a mount) for under $6000 and you got <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> for $7150+. Ouch.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
Congrats...you just hit 50 posts, you can now use the swapmeet and save yourself a lot of money in the FS sections.
Congrats...you just hit 50 posts, you can now use the swapmeet and save yourself a lot of money in the FS sections.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are people giving zfk shit for a $6,000 AR? Does anyone give people shit for a $5000-$6000 Gap Or Tac-Ops. Enough said.
Luck to you ZFK. Nice Stick.</div></div>
Boone who has spent that much on a GAP AR10? Even the bolt guns are in the low to mid $3000s
$2450
http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-2009-custom-rifles/ga-precision-precision-ar-10.html
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are people giving zfk shit for a $6,000 AR? Does anyone give people shit for a $5000-$6000 Gap Or Tac-Ops. Enough said.
Luck to you ZFK. Nice Stick.</div></div>
Boone who has spent that much on a GAP AR10? Even the bolt guns are in the low to mid $3000s
$2450
http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-2009-custom-rifles/ga-precision-precision-ar-10.html
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are people giving zfk shit for a $6,000 AR? Does anyone give people shit for a $5000-$6000 Gap Or Tac-Ops. Enough said.
Luck to you ZFK. Nice Stick. </div></div>
No one is giving him shit. We are just a bit taken bake by it.
I happen to own one of the said GAP's, but it is an AR and it retails for a touch over $3000. Just a big gap in pricing is all. I hope he is happy with his rifle. It is indeed a nice stick. I am very happy with mine at half the cost.
To each their own. Nobody gives anyone shit for buying a $20,000 German bulpup either, we are just taken back by the price/performance.
You do have to laugh at the irony of it though.
z rants about a mount costing twice what it should, but owns a rifle that costs...anyone...come on...you can figure this out...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are people giving zfk shit for a $6,000 AR? Does anyone give people shit for a $5000-$6000 Gap Or Tac-Ops. Enough said.
Luck to you ZFK. Nice Stick. </div></div>
No one is giving him shit. We are just a bit taken bake by it.
I happen to own one of the said GAP's, but it is an AR and it retails for a touch over $3000. Just a big gap in pricing is all. I hope he is happy with his rifle. It is indeed a nice stick. I am very happy with mine at half the cost.
To each their own. Nobody gives anyone shit for buying a $20,000 German bulpup either, we are just taken back by the price/performance.
You do have to laugh at the irony of it though.
z rants about a mount costing twice what it should, but owns a rifle that costs...anyone...come on...you can figure this out...
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are people giving zfk shit for a $6,000 AR? Does anyone give people shit for a $5000-$6000 Gap Or Tac-Ops. Enough said.
Luck to you ZFK. Nice Stick.</div></div>
Boone who has spent that much on a GAP AR10? Even the bolt guns are in the low to mid $3000s
$2450
http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-2009-custom-rifles/ga-precision-precision-ar-10.html </div></div>
Maybe IBA build it...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are people giving zfk shit for a $6,000 AR? Does anyone give people shit for a $5000-$6000 Gap Or Tac-Ops. Enough said.
Luck to you ZFK. Nice Stick.</div></div>
Boone who has spent that much on a GAP AR10? Even the bolt guns are in the low to mid $3000s
$2450
http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-2009-custom-rifles/ga-precision-precision-ar-10.html </div></div>
Maybe IBA build it...
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im still curious what branch of the military the builder builds for? </div></div>
Uber Secret Ninjas of course... Here's Shaggyback on a Meth bust
With the latest uber secret weaponry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im still curious what branch of the military the builder builds for? </div></div>
Uber Secret Ninjas of course... Here's Shaggyback on a Meth bust
With the latest uber secret weaponry
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
Don't ever let Shaggy drink then go on a bust man... It gets kinda weird sometimes.
Don't ever let Shaggy drink then go on a bust man... It gets kinda weird sometimes.
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
Looks like the pool was a little chilly as well......
Now back to your regularly scheduled $7000 AR10 thread.......
Looks like the pool was a little chilly as well......
Now back to your regularly scheduled $7000 AR10 thread.......
Re: The Ring/Mount scam
I think we are not really giving him shit, we are just a little concerned that he bought a 10 year wait/$7000 AR-10 that was sold to him as "custom fabricated in a military contract machine shop." I don't know if there is anything he can do to get his money back, other than outing the builder and giving him a reputation as a snake oil salesman.
I think we are not really giving him shit, we are just a little concerned that he bought a 10 year wait/$7000 AR-10 that was sold to him as "custom fabricated in a military contract machine shop." I don't know if there is anything he can do to get his money back, other than outing the builder and giving him a reputation as a snake oil salesman.
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