The Savage 110 BA rifle report

[varmint slayer]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Excuse my ignorance if this is a widely known problem or flaw but why do you want to replace the recoil lug right out of the gate?

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Well, Im not sure on the BA, but the lugs they use on every other rifle are stamped parts, and only ~.200 thick. You can imagine what happens to a piece of metal when it is punched out of a sheet by a giant press (not super flat, incase thats what you were thinking).

Also you gain some more rigidity, sharp shooter supply makes them out of .240 stainless and are precision ground flat.

Just something to take out of the equation basically, since I have the equipment, I will probably true the action face while Im at it as well. And DEFINITELY install one of the SSS triggers right out of the gate too.

 

[shaggy]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

You Sir, have much more ambition than do I!
When the agonizing waiting period is over, I plan on spending a few nights cleaning her up and mounting the scope - then try to work in some range time to break in the barrel.

 

[birddogsx3]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

The recoil lugs on the 110 BA are precision ground not stamped and are thicker. They are the same ones found on the Savage Target actions. I would not see the need to change it out. Although I have never measured one to see how flat they are.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, Im not sure on the BA, but the lugs they use on every other rifle are stamped parts, and only ~.200 thick. You can imagine what happens to a piece of metal when it is punched out of a sheet by a giant press (not super flat, incase thats what you were thinking).

Also you gain some more rigidity, sharp shooter supply makes them out of .240 stainless and are precision ground flat.

Just something to take out of the equation basically, since I have the equipment, I will probably true the action face while Im at it as well. And DEFINITELY install one of the SSS triggers right out of the gate too.</div></div>

I see what you are saying with the recoil lug but I'm would say just shoot it first and see how it does. If it shoots well (which mine does) then shoot the shit out of it and when it comes time to re-barrel it, then do all the action truing and trigger and what not. The trigger actually feels pretty good with no creep and breaks very crisp and fairly light. I know it can be adjusted down more than it comes from the factory but I thought that it felt just about right where it was at but hey its your gun and you can set it up however you want it. If you do decide to do all the upgrades then I would be interested in some before and after results/comparisons.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: birddogsx3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The recoil lugs on the 110 BA are precision ground not stamped and are thicker. They are the same ones found on the Savage Target actions. I would not see the need to change it out. Although I have never measured one to see how flat they are. </div></div>

Thats good to hear, I could probably hold out on the action work now knowing that the recoil lug is ground not stamped.

I shot the BA once though and the trigger annoyed the hell out of me, not the pull weight, but the fact that its the accutrigger and the placement of it made it too akward for me to pull for some reason.

 

[boottrac]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

How do you like the magazine system?

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

The magazine system works fine. The factory mag that comes with it is a little chinsy but you can buy an AICS mag and replace it from what I understand. The factory one feeds fine and fits pretty decent with not a whole lot of slop.

 

[KAOS]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

I've been having extractor problems with my 110 in 338. I'm shooting factory ammo just trying to break the barrel in so I highly doubt its over pressuring the cases. anyone have the same problem?

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kaos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been having extractor problems with my 110 in 338. I'm shooting factory ammo just trying to break the barrel in so I highly doubt its over pressuring the cases. anyone have the same problem? </div></div>

What kind of factory ammo?

I know everyone who tried Hornady brass had these issues.

I couldve sworn the gun came with an AI mag? I guess thats not the case?

 

[KAOS]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Hornady 285 grain hbpt.
no it came with the savage factory mag

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kaos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hornady 285 grain hbpt.
no it came with the savage factory mag </div></div>

I think we may have just found your extraction issues, try something that uses Lapua brass and I bet it goes away.

And it has nothing to do with pressure, guys were loading a few grains under minimum load and still having extraction issues.

 

[KAOS]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

I never thought about it being the brass, but that actually does make a lot of sense. I will definitely have to try that out, thanks for the info!

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Hell I use cheap Winchester brass and a Hornady sizer and have no problems with extraction. But then again mine is the .300WM version so not exactly apples to apples.

 

[KAOS]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

I never really thought about the problem coming from that side of the equation. I had a hard time believing it to be the rifle though. As soon as I get to a place to pick up some more I will try that out.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Yeah, not sure if its just the reamer Savage is using is not compatible with the brass, or if the extractor isnt, or maybe the Hornady brass just really sucks. Havent heard much whether guys with other brand or custom 338's are having the same issues with it.

 

[KAOS]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

I actually just talked to a friend of mine this morning, he had a Christensen Arms rifle built in .300 Ultra Mag and had the same problem with Hornady factory ammo. Kinda makes me a bit suspicious of Hornady's quality control. Gonna try and get ahold of them and address them about the problem.

 

[Furtaker_.223]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Very nice review. And a sweet rifle to boot.

 

[shaggy]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Good to hear the mags are on the AI platform. I am still waiting to pick up the Savage, but on line Savage shows teh 300 WM out of stock. Meanwhile I can get AI mags.
I have another Savage, also with Accutrigger, and I thought I wouldn't like it - but, in fact, it's crisp and by design safe. I carry a Glock pistol and it has a trigger safety and I really really don't like the trigger on that, after a number of rounds it wrecks your trigger feel. The Savage does nto work the same. Of course, I'm not blasting off rounds like on a pistol course....

 

[KAOS]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

The accutrigger on my 110 is great. It took a handful of rounds to get used to it, but now I can use it almost like a double set trigger. It breaks really cleana and crisp and not much over travel, for an "economically priced rifle" its definitely top notch.

 

[Johnny Lately]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Thanks for the review. How do you like the bolt handle?

 

[Johnny Lately]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmithE-6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great, I have the BA110 in the 338LM on order, well back order, I am getting everything ready for it. Hell it seems like every day is too long. Thought about ordering the 300 bolt and barrel to go with it. Should come in pretty handy to have both in the same gun. According to savage they are interchangeable. Just remove bolt, remove barrel and replace in oppisite order. </div></div>

Here's thread that covered that topic pretty well:http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,40814.0.html

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

The bolt knob feels fine. Just about the right size. Will have pics of the bolt with some high helix flutes done by Chad at Long Rifles Inc. In a couple of weeks as I just dropped it off tonight and it is kinda the test dummy. Should look bad ass when its done.

 

[KAOS]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

No problem with the bolt handle. My only real gripe about the rifle over all is no picatinny rail on the bottom, only a sling swivel stud. It looks as if you could fasten one to the recessed slot in the bottom but its too far back for a bipod mount. Haven't shot mine of the Harris pods yet, but I don't foresee any problems there. Overall a GREAT rifle for the money.

 

[KAOS]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

I purchased some ammo through Hunting Shack and it perfomed flawlessly. No more Hornady for me!

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The stud on the bottom is fixed and threads all the way through the stock and is retained with a nut inside the stock. The two sling studs on both sides of the very front of the stock swivel though.

The piece that the stud and the allen screw go through is just shy of 2 inches long. The hole spacing is only about 3/4 inch so I don't think that the BT 15 rail would work as the spacing on it is wider than that. </div></div>

I just talked with Savage to find out if that rail is infact an Anshutz style rail, the lady did not know...however, she did say that the gun comes with a sliding bipod adapter?

I went ahead and ordered the AFAR kit from Accu-Shot to try it out. I know their target rifles with the sliding rail are Anshutz spec, so I would guess that if they do include the adapter with the BA that it is the same one....hopefully.

Should have the gun monday hopefully, so will let you know as soon as I receive the AFAR from SAC.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Yeah I didn't get an adapter with mine, just a sling stud. I would like to know if the Anshutz style adapter works. Let me know Jon. Also got some info on suppressors and full auto for the prairie dog trip. I'll PM ya.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

so 42X is good to go at 100 yards? Ive got a spotter that is gettin modified to attach rings so I too can drink the koolaid

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so 42X is good to go at 100 yards? Ive got a spotter that is gettin modified to attach rings so I too can drink the koolaid </div></div>

?

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Also ordered a 40moa base from Murphy, luckily he can set them up however you want, so I got it with 8-40 holes in it already, and he has a very short lead time also...hopefully it will be here at the same time as the gun.

 

[jimdvt]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah I didn't get an adapter with mine, just a sling stud. I would like to know if the Anshutz style adapter works.</div></div>

I didn't get a "sliding" adapter either, the stud adapter is attached to the stock with a thru hole and nut on the interior. I suppose you could remove that and install it in the slot. I hope the Anshutz adapter works, but I just checked the dims on the custom nut and I don't think it's going to sit in the slot without modification. I'm eager to find a solution for my Atlas that's on the way from Triad.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

I knew I shouldve asked to talk to either an engineer or a smith about it. She sounded quite confident that they came with a sliding adapter so I believed her....my fault.

Ill figure out a way to make it work, worst case I guess I just remove the front plate thats on the gun and bolt this one in place. It is the shortest mount Accu-Shot makes I think, so maybe it will fit in the spot up front there.

This is all what I get for being in a hurry to get this gun set up for a trip next week and ordering everything before I even see the gun in person haha.

 

[loghog]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

What type of loads are you guys running through your guns? I found a great load that works for me. Lapua brass, Lapua Scenar 300 gr, Vitavorhi 80.5 gr shoots awesome. Using a Vortex 6-24X50 PST.

 

[jimdvt]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I knew I shouldve asked to talk to either an engineer or a smith about it. She sounded quite confident that they came with a sliding adapter so I believed her....my fault.
</div></div>

I gave Savage a call today, clueless. Honestly, if I had it to do over again I don't think I would have bothered. I hate that stupid rail that comes with it, it doesn't even fit the receiver properly, it rocks. So I bought a Badger rail which needed to have the recoil lug machined off then the holes opened up to accept the larger hardware. Which I need to buy separately and have trimmed to length. Pay attention to your accuwedge, I had to send my stock forend back to them to have the thru hole opened up as the bolt was binding and not actually transferring the force to the wedge. Now I need to deal with how to get a piece of picatinny on the bottom of this pig. Anyway, I needed to vent. End of rant.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Well, the AFAR kit from Accu-Shot was a semi success. The inside of the rail on the gun measures 0.379, and the narrow side of the square nut on the AFAR was like 0.395. My first go at it was taking the nuts to the belt sander lightly and narrowing them down to 0.373ish. The nuts slid nicely in the rail, however the supplied screws were too short and only 1-2 threads were engaged.

I then realized that a sliding bipod picatinny seems pointless to me.

Phase two. I took off the factory bipod adapter with the swivel stud. The AFAR rail is 100% the perfect size to fit in the space there. Stuck the stock in the mill/drill, centered up on the stock, and drilled two #21 holes 1.600" apart. Tapped the holes 10-32 (1/4" of aluminum is plenty of meat), blue loctite on the screws and it worked like a charm.

For those wanting an Atlas on this gun that rail is perfect, you may try calling AccuShot and see if he will sell you just the rail though to save some $. Its plenty easy enough to DIY if at the least you have a sharpie, drill (preferably press but hand will work), #21 bit, and 10-32 tap.

Onto the scope base. The 40moa Murphy base came today, with the holes drilled for 8-40, and supplied with 4 stainless Torx screws and a wrench. The base came with ejection ports cut on both sides, they are the perfect length for the port, but the base could be completely solid on the bottom and it would look good. Im undecided whether I would like it enough better to have him make me a new one or not...the only thing pushing me that way is he accidentally engraved Titanium into my SS base haha.

Swapped out the pistol grip for a Sierra Precision, still undecided here as to which is going to be the best fit for me, so far this one feels the best, will have to shoot it a bit to know for sure though.

All I have left mechanically is to stick the YHM QD brake in the lathe first thing tomorrow and face a thou or two off it to time it up better, its sooooo close I was hoping Id be WINNING in this dept right out of the box.

Stole the Razor from my 308 (luckily PST will be here tomorrow), mounted it up, took some ogive measurements to find the lands gave me exactly 2.971 on 6 tries seating a bullet into a loose neck, measured with a hornady comparator.

Loaded up 4 rounds of 89.5, 90, 90.5, and 91 grains of Retumbo to try out tomorrow when my dealer comes out to shoot and brings my can. Hopefully my backstop is 300gn Scenar proof, will find out soon enough

The pics:

I sure hope the gun shoots, already drilling on it and havent shot it!

 

[jimdvt]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Thanks for the update. That's what I was figuring I would need to do. When you are behind the rifle can you adjust the bipod while mounted? I might try the slot mount first. I know you want it as far forward as possible but having it a little more to the rear could make it easier to adjust.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Ill have to let you know on adjusting the bipod. Shot it purely off a rest yesterday for load development...getting concerned. Best group it shot was about 1.5" at 100yds. Tried 89.5-91.5 grains of retumbo, lapua brass, 300 scenar seated at both .020 and .010 off. Scope is definitely tight. Ive got some H1000 to try, but I know most have good luck with retumbo so Im not sure why I cant get it to shoot any better.

How do you guys compare the bolt lift on your Savage 338 to a 308 say. Im not sure if Im having heavy bolt lift issues, or if the 338 is always just more difficult to lift. A few rounds had very heavy lift, but no signs of pressure at all. The ejector on mine feels extremely stiff, and it is leaving marks on the brass even though the brass is not flowing into the hole, it just seems like the ejector pin itself is scraping material off the head. Compared to my Savage 308 ejector it probably has at least 10lbs more spring pressure, is that normal?


I am VERY impressed with the YHM Phantom 338 though, the gun sounds about like my 308 with the 7.62 phantom on it.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Did all your guns come with an AR15 tool in a Brownells bag packaged in with the manual and such?

I cant for the life of me figure out what on earth this tool would be used for on this gun!

 

[jimdvt]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Yes, I received the barrel nut tool. Don't remember if it was in a Brownells bag or not.

The only time I noticed a sticky bolt lift was on a too hot load at the end of my load workup (300 SMK at 2809). The ejector is horrid for a reloader. The entire thing is radius-ed so you essentially have the entire force of the spring pushing on one point instead of spread across a flat ejector. On my rifle this scores an arc on the brass as you lock the bolt closed. I'm sure the ejector design and heavy spring pressure is a good thing for an operator in a life or death situation, but let's be honest about what market is using this rifle...

FYI, when working up my first 20 rounds with 250 SMK's the accuracy was good. Only three shot groups as I worked up but the groups were under an inch at 100 with three of the groups between 1/2" and 3/4". After that I removed the stock and when putting it back together I think there was an issue with the accuwedge where it's alignment couldn't make it work as designed. The subsequent groups working up a 300 SMK's sucked (about 1.25" getting progressively worse to 2") When I took the stock forearm off you could see where the accuwedge bolt threads were bearing into the thru hole of the aluminum forearm during recoil. You might want to pull that bolt and see if you have a similar issue.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

I thought maybe it was for the barrel nut, but couldnt believe they would actually supply a barrel nut wrench first of all...second, I tried it and it didnt seem to quite fit. Ah well, I thought maybe something got screwed up when packaging mine.

Ill take the stock off tomorrow and check it out. I did notice the first time I took the action out after removing it from the box that the action screws did not seem very tight. Are they not supposed to be torqued down very much? The manual is basically useless for this gun.

I have a set of headspace gauges coming that will hopefully be here friday so I can rule that out.

 

[rezmedic54]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Yep nice rifle. Was going to get one but just couldn't swing it but did manage to get a New Savage 118 Bear Hunter in .338 Win Mag. Great rifle and nice to shoot it has the adjustable muzzle break. The 110 BAS will be my next and last it will be in .338 Lapua Mag. Be a year or so in that time should have a really good 300 gr. load worked up for the win mag and just cross it over to the Lapua mag. Time will tell and in the mean time will enjoy reading about them here.

 

[jimdvt]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

It may not be for the barrel nut, I didn't take it out of the bag and just assumed. I wonder if it has to do with replacing the stock on the AR sized tube.

I tried a Harris bipod on the standard swivel and it's difficult for me to adjust from the firing position. It may be more difficult on the Atlas with legs angled forward. I'm 5'8" with a slightly longer than average wingspan.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Well, I am pretty frustrated with this thing.

Cleaned the hell out of the barrel this morning, took the bolt apart and cleaned it. Also polished the outside and the face of the ejector so it would quit ruining my brass (worked well).

Took the stock off again, looked for any signs of something out of the ordinary, this is my first accustock so Im not real familiar with the wedge but it appears to be functioning fine. Torqued the screws down until it felt like the action was really bottoming out on the blocks in the stock instead of just riding the wedge.

Loaded up the "best" powder charge of 90.0 grains retumbo, 3 shot groups, and jumping .030, .020, .010, and jammed .010.

Velocity seemed low at 2650, but was extremely consistent, maybe 10fps ES.

Accuracy again was horrid. two of the groups had two promising shots, but then the third was WAY off.

Checked the scope, the ARC rings were tight I guarantee its not them. Took the scope off to check the base, screws were still loctited and torqued properly. I will probably bed the base just to be sure, but may wait until I find out if I have a dud.

So, once I was fed up I clamped it up in my action vise, took the barrel nut off to inspect in there. I hate how Savage bead blasts it after assembly and does not clean it out, the tennon threads were full of media. The only thing I see as an issue is a pretty good booger on the action face, I will chuck that up in my truing fixture and face it off tomorrow.

Had to call Sharp Shooter to get a new recoil lug because for whatever reason Savage decided not to put a pin on these recoil lugs to locate it, even though the notch is still in the action?!? The lug does however appear to be of proper thickness and seems to be ground not stamped. Since I was paying for shipping I figured I might as well also get another one of their triggers since I like it so much on my 308.

What is your load for yours jimvt?

 

[jimdvt]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

I've only had 40 rounds through this gun as it's scopeless right now. After getting the fixed forearm back from Savage when I went to the range my scope wouldn't focus. I had a cheap Vortex Crossfire on it while waiting for a PST. Apparently the objective lens on the Crossfire can get stuck. So that went back to Vortex and when it came back I wasn't interested in mounting and wasting the components on an unknown since the PST was right around the corner. Got the PST and didn't care for the eyebox and image quality at the upper magnification, so that went back and now I'm waiting on the new SS 5-20.

Anyway, I can't give you any accuracy claims on these SMK 300 loads but here are the charges and velocities. Retumbo, FedGM primer, Lapua brass, COAL 3.680". Velocity averages are for three shots, except for two shots on the first.

90.0 = 2709
90.5 = 2719
91.0 = 2744
91.5 = 2743
92.0 = 2785
92.5 = 2801
93.0 = 2809 (HOT! Sticky bolt lift and sharp report)

Not a big enough sample but gives you an idea of the progression. Some skewed averages on 91 & 91.5 due to high and low velocity outliers. I'm guessing my load will settle somewhere in the 91-92gr range pending accuracy. Good luck!

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Oh, forgot to mention, Savage is worthless to call and ask for help. All the guy told me was to try 250gn bullets because that is what they use to test fire....

Jim, Im having trouble understanding the issue you had with the wedge. Could you explain it again? Was it one of the action screws that had the issue?

 

[jimdvt]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

It wasn't the action screw, it was the screw for the wedge which is up front where you can remove the forearm. If you PM me an email address I can forward you the email and pics I sent to savage. Or you can direct me to instructions for posting pics on here. I haven't looked for them yet because I don't bother with photobucket or anything like that.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

SSS sent me a small shank lug on accident, so while I was waiting for that I decided to bed the scope base to take that out of the equation.

If this thing still shoots like crap I think my only option is to get Savage to give me a new barrel...dont really see how it could be anything besides that. Action square, nut deburred, headspace perfect, base bedded. Ill try both the Razor and PST on it to rule out the reticle being loose, but the Razor works perfectly fine on my 308 right now.

Have to wait for my F4 to come back on my can probably before I can do anything else, its a bit too loud for my house with the brake on. That should be any day now.

 

[Ballistic Archer]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Nice report, in my limited experience with Savage they seem to have up'ed thier game in recent years. I picked up an Edge as a "rainy day" gun (literally) when I did not want to take the Browning A-Bolt out. Following a religious 100 round barrel break-in ritual of cleaning every 5 shots with shooters choice until a white dry patch is produced, the stick is shooting 5rds of BlackHills 68gr BTHP Match into an inch from a clean bore at 100 yds and 2 1/4" at 300 (9X scope setting). Pretty nice performance from a $380.00 rifle and $250.00 Burris scope with nothing but a good cleaning and basic tune.

I may have missed it but what was the total invested in your setup? Good luck getting your rig performing to its potential. Nice shop you have BTW.

Regards.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

Is the receiver built to the same dimensions as the other 110 receivers or is it larger in diameter and/or longer? I'd like to build one with a Krieger barrel on a McRee chassis but don't want to pay $2k for a barrel and stock I won't be using.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: The Savage 110 BA rifle report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the receiver built to the same dimensions as the other 110 receivers or is it larger in diameter and/or longer? I'd like to build one with a Krieger barrel on a McRee chassis but don't want to pay $2k for a barrel and stock I won't be using. </div></div>

If youre going to swap the barrel and stock you may as well wait for the long range hunter to come out. It is the same action in a basic accustock with a sporter barrel. Should be well under $1k.

Im not sure on the action screw spacing, but the scope base is standard LA spec, the bolt diameter is the same as both SA and LA. I dont see it being any different since it also comes in 300WM.