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Rifle Scopes The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

C

CCCP2k

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 30, 2011
151
0
51
Canada
#1
Hi all

How do you deal in practice with shadowing effect caused by vignetting in some scopes aka S&B 5-25x56 PMII? I find it very disorienting. I always mistake the shadow "by design" with shadow by my mistake.

What kind of elevation ranges you scopes can handle without showing the effect? For example my S&B relatively vignetting-free at elevations 8-20 milrads and wintages +-3 milrads

Have you ever seen it on other scopes? I can not see it on Night Force NSX 3.5-15x50, second focal plane.

Is there any relation to the focal plane placement?

Here is the picture of S&B PMII posted on this forum a while ago. The "moon" on top is vignetting effect.

Note, that I am not trying to argue the wisdom of S&B creators here. You can find their explanation of the effect below in Rob01's post.

SBscope1.jpg



 
#2
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

What cant base is the scope on?

I typically look through the scope, put the crosshairs where I want to hit and shoot. I don't gaze longingly through the scope and examine the full FOV and scope edges in all honestly. I just shoot stuff.
 
#3
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Like Jason I am too busy looking at the center where I am shooting.

Dude sell the scope. You obviously don't like it. You said it bothers you in the other thread even though you haven't even mounted it yet and shot behind it. You got the explanation from S&B and posted it in the other thread. For anyone not seeing the other thread here it is:

"Thank you for your inquiry into this question about the Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 PMII. We hope the following explanation helps you better understand this optical issue.
The 5-25x56 PMII was developed to provide 2000 meter capability. In order to achieve this in a first focal plane scope the erector tube must be allowed to move up and down to both ends of its vertical adjustment range. In doing so you will see a "shadowing" affect within the field of view.
This affect is called Vignetting (vin'yed•ing) and is defined as follows:
(optics) Reduction in intensity of illumination near the edges of an optical instrument's field of view caused by obstruction of light rays by the edge of the aperture.
(In this case, when the erector tube is at the end of its adjustment range you will see a distortion caused by the inside edge of the scope tube as it is now visible in the field of view.)
To see this, adjust the power ring to 5x power and set the elevation turret to its lowest setting. Now when looking through the eye piece you will see a "black ring" surrounding the field of view that is off center. The "black ring" will appear to be sitting on the bottom of the tube with a gap at the top. You will also see a shiny elliptical area above the top half of the "black ring" that is a reflection of the surrounding's in the direction you are pointing the scope. This reflective surface is the interior wall of the scope tube. Now if you adjust the elevation turret to its highest setting this view will change. Now the "black ring" appears to be touching at the top and the reflective surface is now visible at the bottom of the field of view. When the power is increased the "black ring" becomes blurred but is still evident even at 25x in the field of view.

Two solutions to this issue would be to:
a) Shorten the vertical adjustment range to eliminate the vignetting which would then also reduce the amount of total elevation adjustment in the turret or
b) install a baffle or ring that eliminates the vignetting, but also cuts down the field of view.
Either solution reduces the effectiveness of the 5-25x56 PMII as a long range scope. So if we remove the vignetting we lose a key feature in this scope which is extremely important to the users of the 5-25x56PMII and allowing this vignetting affect is a compromise Schmidt & Bender is making in order to provide a better product. "

 
#4
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like Jason I am too busy looking at the center where I am shooting.</div></div>

This is exactly why I started new thread. See, sometimes beginner shooters like me got tangled in the small little details while not seeing whole picture correctly. I have made this mistake several times and do not want make it again.

As you pointed out, concentrate at the center and I believe it's the right thing to do. How important do you think the alignment of your sight picture within the scope. Can you afford slight misalignment due to the moon when you release a not so deliberate shot?
 
#6
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What cant base is the scope on?

I typically look through the scope, put the crosshairs where I want to hit and shoot. I don't gaze longingly through the scope and examine the full FOV and scope edges in all honestly. I just shoot stuff. </div></div>

It's not mounted yet. Still waiting for the rifle.

I usually check the edges then switch to target. Occasionally I find myself loosing the sight picture alignment due to improper position or lack of natural point of aim. At these times the edges come handy. I think that I give too much of attention to the sight alignment because I have not developed completely consistent position and eye relief. This need should go away with practice.

I think S&B suits better for experienced shooters with consistent eye relief. They will never confuse the moon from scope internals with the shadow due to improper eye relief or the eye shifted from optical center
 
#7
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Is this a specific "problem" with the 5-25?

I've had a 3-12 for years and never noticed anything like that...but like others, maybe I'm too busy looking at where the crosshairs are pointing?

I'm waiting on a 4-16x42....maybe that has the same "issue"? I'll be sure to spend some quality fondling time before I get it mounted just to check.

But maybe it would be better to wait until you've got your scope mounted before worrying too much? Just a thought....
 
#8
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldfatguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what reticle and turrets does your scope have? Where did you buy it? And where are you located, your profile is a bit lacking in information.

OFG </div></div>

I have P4L-Fine reticle, milrad double turn turrets. Bought it from Wolverine, Canada.
 
#9
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this a specific "problem" with the 5-25?
But maybe it would be better to wait until you've got your scope mounted before worrying too much? Just a thought.... </div></div>

I have hard time to believe that mounting the scope will change anything. As you see many people do not see any problems with it. It would be really nice to take a look through the glass before buying it but these days people tend to sell virtual stuff (at least here in Canada). Nobody keeps stuff like this in stock.
 
#10
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

The first question is how far do you plan to shoot?

Unless you are maxing out your elevation range you are unlikely to see an issue until you start hitting really long distance ranges.
With a reasonable base like 20MOA to 40MOA, you can be out to 1000 yards and be in the 12 to 15 range and have plenty of up room to go.
So if you set up your scope well, most of your shooting will be in the middle of the elevation ranges and you won't have much of an issue.

I would disagree about the scope being best for experianced shooters only, I have put plenty of new shooters behind an AI with a S&B 5-25 scope even without it being perfectly adjusted to their checkweld height / length of pull etc, and they were surprised by how accurate and repeatable shots they could get.

Personally the S&B 5-25x56 scope is the scope I measure all others by and if you can do it as your first scope, then you have one of the best from the start and don't need to waste money going up the ladder.

I would suggest mounting it in a good 20moa to 45moa mount depending on your expected shooting range and then having fun with some of best glass to be had without so much worry about is my eye relief perfect etc before you have even gotten behind it on a rifle.

Take it out and enjoy it and then as you get more comfortable behind the rifle+scope make minor adjustments to make the eye relief perfect for your preferred shooting position.
 
#11
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Me thinks this issue is largely due to the difference in FOV from Call of Duty vs an actual optic. Had a similar issue a while back when a buddy shot my 1911 and was surprised that the gun did more than just vibrate in his soft hands....

Here's my suggestion: mount the scope, shoot rifle with said scope mounted.

If still experiencing issues as stated above, wait until next installment of Call of Duty is released and sniper on.


In all seriousness, shoot the rifle with the scope prior to going online to "complain" about something that in the real world has zero impact on the optics performance.
 
#13
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this a specific "problem" with the 5-25?
But maybe it would be better to wait until you've got your scope mounted before worrying too much? Just a thought.... </div></div>

I have hard time to believe that mounting the scope will change anything. As you see many people do not see any problems with it. It would be really nice to take a look through the glass before buying it but these days people tend to sell virtual stuff (at least here in Canada). Nobody keeps stuff like this in stock. </div></div>

Well...IMHO mounting it and getting a constant cheekweld will show you the difference between using it handheld as a telescope or in a fixed position on a rifle as a sight?

As for buying "blind" (forgive the pun...probably not the best way to buy optics unless you've already had one in your paws and checked it out on a mate's rifle?)) hope this helps?

http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/find-a-dealer/north-america/canada.html
 
#14
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Everything you say definitely helps helps.
Quick summary of the points given so far:

1. Mount the scope and see if it feels good
2. Adjust your base slope so it matches the distances you shoot at
3. Do not give too much fuzz over the edges. Maintain cheek weld consistent and concentrate on target
4. Be practical over small details you find imperfect
5. There is no solid poof that the effect impacts accuracy in any way
6. S&B PMII is not perfect but it's still one of the top world class long range scopes.

Did I miss anything?
Shopping is out of topic :)
 
#15
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first question is how far do you plan to shoot?

Unless you are maxing out your elevation range you are unlikely to see an issue until you start hitting really long distance ranges.
With a reasonable base like 20MOA to 40MOA, you can be out to 1000 yards and be in the 12 to 15 range and have plenty of up room to go.
So if you set up your scope well, most of your shooting will be in the middle of the elevation ranges and you won't have much of an issue.

I would disagree about the scope being best for experianced shooters only, I have put plenty of new shooters behind an AI with a S&B 5-25 scope even without it being perfectly adjusted to their checkweld height / length of pull etc, and they were surprised by how accurate and repeatable shots they could get.

Personally the S&B 5-25x56 scope is the scope I measure all others by and if you can do it as your first scope, then you have one of the best from the start and don't need to waste money going up the ladder.

I would suggest mounting it in a good 20moa to 45moa mount depending on your expected shooting range and then having fun with some of best glass to be had without so much worry about is my eye relief perfect etc before you have even gotten behind it on a rifle.

Take it out and enjoy it and then as you get more comfortable behind the rifle+scope make minor adjustments to make the eye relief perfect for your preferred shooting position. </div></div>

+1

In my opinion they should put this post in their manuals
 
#17
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Sure have, got one in my closet. I'm mounting it today or tomorrow when I have a chance.
I bet its just as clear and works just as good as my 5-25 and the 4-16x42 I just sold.
I suggest you go buy another brand optic and compare them side by side. You will then see the difference.

I had a chance to compare my S&B side by side with a USO, Nightforce, Vortex and a Leupold. In my opinion, and opinions of the owners of the other optics, there was no comparison. Were they hitting the targets? Yes they were. Did their scopes track correctly? Sure did, AFAIK. Where I saw the difference was while shooting in teams, I could spot for my teammate at 500 yds with my scope, no one else could.

You have already made up your mind that the S&B is a big let down and you have no clue how you will sight your target with it. Send it back and dont waste your time. Find another optic.

If these are the kinds of things you can't get past, your in for a long haul in this hobby and it's going to cost you a ton!
 
#18
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T2CH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure have, got one in my closet. I'm mounting it today or tomorrow when I have a chance.
I bet its just as clear and works just as good as my 5-25 and the 4-16x42 I just sold.
I suggest you go buy another brand optic and compare them side by side. You will then see the difference.

I had a chance to compare my S&B side by side with a USO, Nightforce, Vortex and a Leupold. In my opinion, and opinions of the owners of the other optics, there was no comparison. Were they hitting the targets? Yes they were. Did their scopes track correctly? Sure did, AFAIK. Where I saw the difference was while shooting in teams, I could spot for my teammate at 500 yds with my scope, no one else could.

You have already made up your mind that the S&B is a big let down and you have no clue how you will sight your target with it. Send it back and dont waste your time. Find another optic.

If these are the kinds of things you can't get past, your in for a long haul in this hobby and it's going to cost you a ton! </div></div>

Out of curiosity, how would you compare the magnitude of the effect between 4-16, 5-25 and 3-20?

And please let put my personal feelings about the issue aside. We are not trying to pick the right scope here. I believe the topic of scope preferences has been discussed extensively on the WEB. Let's just discuss the issue and see how it works out in the field. The mentioning of other scopes would be beneficial but only for comparison purposes. We do not want create or spoil advertising campaign here :)

The purpose of this thread is to get better understanding of optics and its artifacts and how they relate to practical application. I hope my hobby will become my profession one day
 
#19
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

The vignetting has no effect on the POI. In actual use, it is only rarely visible. When it is present, as long as the parallax is correctly set and there is no ocular shadowing, you are fine. It's pretty easy, at least for me and the clients I've had in class, to see the differance between the internal vignette and being out of center in the ocular. Just move your head a little bit on the stock with the scope mounted correctly and you'll see it really has no effect. It is important to mount the 5-25 with a base that has enough slope, 30-40 MOA. That will then show the effect only at low power and close (<200) ranges where you really have to look for it, or at near max range at under full power, fairly rare anyway.
 
#20
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lizzardking308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Me thinks this issue is largely due to the difference in FOV from Call of Duty vs an actual optic. Had a similar issue a while back when a buddy shot my 1911 and was surprised that the gun did more than just vibrate in his soft hands....

Here's my suggestion: mount the scope, shoot rifle with said scope mounted.

If still experiencing issues as stated above, wait until next installment of Call of Duty is released and sniper on.



In all seriousness, shoot the rifle with the scope prior to going online to "complain" about something that in the real world has zero impact on the optics performance. </div></div>

thats funny!
 
#21
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The vignetting has no effect on the POI. In actual use, it is only rarely visible. When it is present, as long as the parallax is correctly set and there is no ocular shadowing, you are fine. It's pretty easy, at least for me and the clients I've had in class, to see the differance between the internal vignette and being out of center in the ocular. Just move your head a little bit on the stock with the scope mounted correctly and you'll see it really has no effect. It is important to mount the 5-25 with a base that has enough slope, 30-40 MOA. That will then show the effect only at low power and close (<200) ranges where you really have to look for it, or at near max range at under full power, fairly rare anyway. </div></div>

The confusion between being out of ocular and the internal vignette started this conversation. This is something you need to keep in mind.

Do you think one can confuse them and make quick shot with bad ocular under time constrains or under the stress?

What also bothers me is inconsistency where this thing appears. On low elevations it will be in one place, on high - in other place. If you dial windage then it will shift left or right. Gotta remember this things.
 
#22
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I don't ever remeber seeing any shadowing effect on my 4-16. I just dialed 17 mils up from my zero on the 5-25 and could barely make out a shadow effect in the bottom of the tube. I really had to move my head around to see it though. I then dialed 12 mils up on my 3-20 and saw no shadowing effect.
12 mils will get me close to 1100 yds with my GAP-10 .308.
17 mils will get me close to 1300 yds with same rifle.

The 3-20 will reside on the GAP-10 with a 20 MOA base and the 5-25 will go on a build I have on the way. It will probably have a base with more cant than 20 moa.

It is also important to remember that the optic should match the rifle and the distances being shot the majority of the time. The amount of cant the base has also plays a huge role. S&B recommends using a 40-45 MOA canted base. All these factors being correct will keep you closer to the center of the adjustment range at the distances you shoot.
 
#23
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T2CH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't ever remeber seeing any shadowing effect on my 4-16. I just dialed 17 mils up from my zero on the 5-25 and could barely make out a shadow effect in the bottom of the tube. I really had to move my head around to see it though. I then dialed 12 mils up on my 3-20 and saw no shadowing effect.
12 mils will get me close to 1100 yds with my GAP-10 .308.
17 mils will get me close to 1300 yds with same rifle.

The 3-20 will reside on the GAP-10 with a 20 MOA base and the 5-25 will go on a build I have on the way. It will probably have a base with more cant than 20 moa.

It is also important to remember that the optic should match the rifle and the distances being shot the majority of the time. The amount of cant the base has also plays a huge role. S&B recommends using a 40-45 MOA canted base. All these factors being correct will keep you closer to the center of the adjustment range at the distances you shoot. </div></div>

I took a look at .338 LM chart and came into conclusion that 5-25 will mostly cover its effective range without too much of effect if you can live with it at 100-300m range. So, what you have just said makes perfect sense to me. Who cares what happens at 100-300m. You will get it anyway. In practice you would shoot at that distance with lower magnification.

How precise in terms of elevation adjustments the scope can be mounted? How do you pick the slope to get the elevation where you want it to be?
 
#24
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

After playing a little bit more with .338 LM chart and the scope here I would pick the base that brings me to 100m zero at 4 milrad elevation.

@10x zoom I can not see the effect at all starting from this point. I can shoot then up to 400m using 10x without the effect. After that I can switch to higher zooms without too much of it. It will start be noticeable at 1500m. I do not see the shots beyond that being practical (at least for me)
 
#25
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
How precise in terms of elevation adjustments the scope can be mounted? How do you pick the slope to get the elevation where you want it to be? </div></div>


If you mean cant on the base, you can usually get them in 5 or 10 moa increments. Might take some looking and waiting though.

I may end up with a 20 moa base on my build just because I like a 100yd zero. I live in Virginia and the chances to get to 1000 are rare, especially hunting. On my gas gun the 20 moa mount works perfect and I can still get to 1000 with no distortion.

Look at it like this, the cant in the base is like having that extra elevation added into the optic.
 
#26
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

It seems you can't get over this "problem" with your scope. I'll shoot you a PM with my mailing address, I'll pay for the shipping and I will dispose of this piece of garbage. No cost to you.
 
#27
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lizzardking308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems you can't get over this "problem" with your scope. I'll shoot you a PM with my mailing address, I'll pay for the shipping and I will dispose of this piece of garbage. No cost to you. </div></div>

I can dispose it myself without any problems. The point here is to squeeze maximum out of the it
 
#28
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I would wager a fair sum that it is far more capable than most are able to perform themselves... After all, the scopes sole job is to point where you want the projectile to hit, your job is to make it happen. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian...
 
#29
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T2CH</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
How precise in terms of elevation adjustments the scope can be mounted? How do you pick the slope to get the elevation where you want it to be? </div></div>


If you mean cant on the base, you can usually get them in 5 or 10 moa increments. Might take some looking and waiting though.

I may end up with a 20 moa base on my build just because I like a 100yd zero. I live in Virginia and the chances to get to 1000 are rare, especially hunting. On my gas gun the 20 moa mount works perfect and I can still get to 1000 with no distortion.

Look at it like this, the cant in the base is like having that extra elevation added into the optic.

</div></div>


As I understand from the manual, S&B scope requires an angled base to compensate for half of available elevation range. In my case it's 13 milrad. If I would like to put 100 m zero at 4 milrad I need to compensate for 9 milrad which roughly corresponds to 30 MOA base. Correct?
 
#30
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII


IF you want the max amount of E adjustment , with the 5-25x , you need a 45 moa base , get over this little issue that in real use , you will virtually never SEE , as its only at the extreme bottom and top ( maxed out E adjustment ) .

IN short as long as you have it on a 45 moa slanted mount , you will NEVER see it period .

the 3-12 & 4-16x , need around 20+ moa mount , most say 20 moa is OK , on the AIs , most will use a 28 moa mount for the 3-12 & 4-16x .

Just be careful , as as soon as you actually shoot this scope , I know your 2 nd complaint will be , lack of it turning past the 1st rev ( in this case you have not got the DT indicator posned right in the turret cap .

SELL this scope to some one who will be HAPPY with it , and buy a NXS , you know you want too !!!!


Later Chris
 
#31
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I have used the 5-25x56 scope with:
18moa
28moa
45moa
mounts (AI one piece mounts, note that with those the 18moa and 28moa mounts will/may need some milling to fit the bottom of the scope)

With all 3, I didn't have any problem getting to a 100 yard zero with either a 308, 243 or .338 rifle

One note you may want to keep in mind is if you happen to be of rather small stature, the 45moa mount may make it a tiny touch harder to get a really nice eye box as it sits a few milimeters higher than the 18moa mount, but assuming you are average height, then it shouldn't make any difference.
 
#32
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

This isn't a problem, this is the solution to the problem.

"I need more elevation to shoot ELR"

Solution is exactly what you have here.

And if you're only creating this BS to backdoor our Sales rule, then please leave, your "squeeze maximum out of the sucker" comment infers this is the case.

This is nauseating at best
 
#33
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: calling4life</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This isn't a problem, this is the solution to the problem.

"I need more elevation to shoot ELR"

Solution is exactly what you have here.

And if you're only creating this BS to backdoor our Sales rule, then please leave, your "squeeze maximum out of the sucker" comment infers this is the case.

This is nauseating at best </div></div>

You are taking the "issue" too seriously. This was a joke. I do not understand Sales rule. What sales? Do you sell S&Bs? I think I explained my purpose above. I will certainly remove the word just to please you. You may ask the other guy to remove "piece of garbage" as well.

Please gentlemen, let's keep it less emotional but professional and I do not mean salesman profession. We are all here to improve our down-range results not to shop around or tell other people what to buy. I would rather have an advice on how to use it rather on how can I sell it or where to buy the stuff cheaper.

Thank you all for your constructive input
 
#34
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
IF you want the max amount of E adjustment , with the 5-25x , you need a 45 moa base , get over this little issue that in real use , you will virtually never SEE , as its only at the extreme bottom and top ( maxed out E adjustment ) .

IN short as long as you have it on a 45 moa slanted mount , you will NEVER see it period .

the 3-12 & 4-16x , need around 20+ moa mount , most say 20 moa is OK , on the AIs , most will use a 28 moa mount for the 3-12 & 4-16x .

Just be careful , as as soon as you actually shoot this scope , I know your 2 nd complaint will be , lack of it turning past the 1st rev ( in this case you have not got the DT indicator posned right in the turret cap .

SELL this scope to some one who will be HAPPY with it , and buy a NXS , you know you want too !!!!


Later Chris </div></div>

45MOA is 13 milrad which is exactly the half amount of overall adjustment range. Is there any chance that I will be short of clicks on lower end? Should I leave 1-2 mils at the bottom just in case?
 
#35
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

What he means is 100 posts to sell "Sales rule"! Put it on a rifle; then try it, or sell it after you get your 100 posts! Simple enough! Now please ....!
 
#36
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: calling4life</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This isn't a problem, this is the solution to the problem.

"I need more elevation to shoot ELR"
</div></div>

I think this is a good point and S&B explains it:

"Two solutions to this issue would be to:
a) Shorten the vertical adjustment range to eliminate the vignetting which would then also reduce the amount of total elevation adjustment in the turret or
b) install a baffle or ring that eliminates the vignetting, but also cuts down the field of view.
Either solution reduces the effectiveness of the 5-25x56 PMII as a long range scope. So if we remove the vignetting we lose a key feature in this scope which is extremely important to the users of the 5-25x56PMII and allowing this vignetting affect is a compromise Schmidt & Bender is making in order to provide a better product. "
 
#37
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What he means is 100 posts to sell "Sales rule"! Put it on a rifle; then try it, or sell it after you get your 100 posts! Simple enough! Now please ....! </div></div>

I am new to this forum and what you are saying has no any sense to me. Which 100 posts? I will definitely check the forum rules to see what I may have violated but please be assured that I do not have to sell it. I can simply return it. I am thinking to keep it by the way after S&B sends me some numbers.

 
#38
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

The problem I see in all this for you is your stock fit, from several of your posts it seems as if you doubt your consistency, this has you checking edges and just being anal in general, seemingly overanalyzing everything, looking for something to be wrong even when given answers.

I would suggest making sure your stock is fit perfectly for you and your setup, get down in position, shut your eyes and get comfortable, when you open them you should be looking through the scope with full FOV.

If this is all clicking, then you can stop all this extreme examination of everything and shoot. Like was stated before, I put the crosshairs on the target and shoot, I'm not screwing around with peripherals, why is this like this, what happens if I move 3cm this way.
Don't take that as willful ignorance, a guy should make sure equipment is as it should be, should always be working on form, but there is an extreme to this and it can be as harmful as anything.

But it does sound to me like stock fit should be looked into.

The sales rule is our 100 post minimum requirement here on the hide, I'll stop on this point and believe you and your intent.
 
#39
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I can't speak for the "Mods" as far as violations; but you may want to read the rules regardless. You may also consider returning your scope and saving all of us the misery!
 
#40
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: calling4life</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The problem I see in all this for you is your stock fit, from several of your posts it seems as if you doubt your consistency, this has you checking edges and just being anal in general, seemingly overanalyzing everything, looking for something to be wrong even when given answers.

I would suggest making sure your stock is fit perfectly for you and your setup, get down in position, shut your eyes and get comfortable, when you open them you should be looking through the scope with full FOV.

If this is all clicking, then you can stop all this extreme examination of everything and shoot. Like was stated before, I put the crosshairs on the target and shoot, I'm not screwing around with peripherals, why is this like this, what happens if I move 3cm this way.
Don't take that as willful ignorance, a guy should make sure equipment is as it should be, should always be working on form, but there is an extreme to this and it can be as harmful as anything.

But it does sound to me like stock fit should be looked into.

The sales rule is our 100 post minimum requirement here on the hide, I'll stop on this point and believe you and your intent. </div></div>

This is exactly what I wanted to hear. By the way my first coach also complained that I am "anal in general" and overanalyzing. But sometimes it's fun to analyze if you are sick and have new toy in your hands. I think the problem of being anal deserves a dedicated thread. How far should you go? What is important? What can be traded off? Tough questions.

Thank you very much for your advice. I will pass your word to my friend who is much worse in it than me. Do you teach people to shoot professionally?

 
#41
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't speak for the "Mods" as far as violations; but you may want to read the rules regardless. You may also consider returning your scope and saving all of us the misery! </div></div>

I do not see any misery here. Just a process of understanding. Look at the advice above. I will take it with me and other folks can benefit from it. I noticed that some guys spend more time on the range talking about equipment than they spend shooting. They can benefit from this advice.

I am totally pleased with the outcome of this thread. I will leave you guys for the time being. Need to dryfire and work on position :)

Thank you all again for the time spent and spears broken.
 
#43
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lizzardking308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would wager a fair sum that it is far more capable than most are able to perform themselves... After all, the scopes sole job is to point where you want the projectile to hit, your job is to make it happen. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian...

I believe APA's shirt says it best... "Shut up and shoot!"

Me thinks this issue is largely due to the difference in FOV from Call of Duty vs an actual optic. Had a similar issue a while back when a buddy shot my 1911 and was surprised that the gun did more than just vibrate in his soft hands....

If still experiencing issues as stated above, wait until next installment of Call of Duty is released and sniper on.

</div></div>

Just slogans and rhetoric. No practical advice here
 
#44
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lizzardking308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread needs to die.... Bad....
</div></div>

Good or bad, I got what I wanted from it. Thank you very much for your valued input.
 
#45
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
45MOA is 13 milrad which is exactly the half amount of overall adjustment range. Is there any chance that I will be short of clicks on lower end? Should I leave 1-2 mils at the bottom just in case?
</div></div>

I have put a S&B 5-25x56 on a 308 with a 45moa mount & I easily got a 100 yard zero and still had some downward elevation left.
 
#48
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCCP2K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What cant base is the scope on?

I typically look through the scope, put the crosshairs where I want to hit and shoot. I don't gaze longingly through the scope and examine the full FOV and scope edges in all honestly. I just shoot stuff. </div></div>

It's not mounted yet. Still waiting for the rifle.

I usually check the edges then switch to target. Occasionally I find myself loosing the sight picture alignment due to improper position or lack of natural point of aim. At these times the edges come handy. I think that I give too much of attention to the sight alignment because I have not developed completely consistent position and eye relief. This need should go away with practice.

I think S&B suits better for experienced shooters with consistent eye relief. They will never confuse the moon from scope internals with the shadow due to improper eye relief or the eye shifted from optical center
</div></div>

The S&B 5-25 is pretty much what every shooter wants to own. You my friend are lucky enough to own one and I almost guarantee if a Schmidt & Bender is giving you issues every other scope out there will have even bigger issues for YOU. I'm not trying to knock you, but you're basically looking for issues in the Rolex of rile scopes.

P.S. Mount the damn thing before you critique it!
crazy.gif
 
#49
Re: The "shadowing" effect seen in S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeeprider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The S&B 5-25 is pretty much what every shooter wants to own. You my friend are lucky enough to own one and I almost guarantee if a Schmidt & Bender is giving you issues every other scope out there will have even bigger issues for YOU. I'm not trying to knock you, but you're basically looking for issues in the Rolex of rile scopes.

P.S. Mount the damn thing before you critique it!
crazy.gif
</div></div>

I believe we passed critiques here and criticizing was not the purpose of this thread. We are discussing the trade-off which S&B gives to it's users and everyone including me agrees that it's useful one and not a major issue.

By the way, I believe you will not crucify me if I say that I do not like Rolex and prefer Omega :)
 
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