The Venerable 308 vs "New gen" ubiquitous 6.5 Creedmoor LR - ELR Shootout

[Gertvr]

In our last ELR weekend at The Arena in Blakely GA see thread here the 6.5 CreedMoor "club" was continuously gun shamed by some outsiders @Esoteric Junkie ++ stating even their 3....0.....GR8s (manly voice) will outshoot the 6.5 Creeeeeeedmooooor (made it sound like an old lady howling like a wolf) all day long even LR - ELR. We ( the 6.5CM "fanboy club") would have none of this and challenged the 3.....0.....GR8 crowd to a shoot-off, to once and for all, determine with presentable evidence, witnessed by an independent judge, the outcome of this shoot out.

Shaming has gone the other direction as well, read with as there are a lot of keyboard jockeys out there with opinions. This might have been proven before, if so, this will be another data point. We will carefully determine the parameters of the challenge to extract the max from both.

 

[badassgunworks]

In our last ELR weekend at The Arena in Blakely GA see thread here the 6.5 CreedMoor "club" was continuously gun shamed by some outsiders @Esoteric Junkie ++ stating even their 3....0.....GR8s (manly voice) will outshoot the 6.5 Creeeeeeedmooooor (made it sound like an old lady howling like a wolf) all day long even LR - ELR. We ( the 6.5CM "fanboy club") would have none of this and challenged the 3.....0.....GR8 crowd to a shoot-off, to once and for all, determine with presentable evidence, witnessed by an independent judge, the outcome of this shoot out.

Shaming has gone the other direction as well, read with as there are a lot of keyboard jockeys out there with opinions. This might have been proven before, if so, this will be another data point. We will carefully determine the parameters of the challenge to extract the max from both.

I saw this show one time called The Big Bang Theory. Were these two nerds challenged each other as to who was the better athlete. It was super funny. To be honest with you the 308 or the Creed neither one is what would be considered a e l r cartridge. As ELR just begins to starts about the maximum effective range of both of those cartridges ELR match settings start at 1500 yards and goes to 3500 + yards

 

[Eurodriver]

I saw this show one time called The Big Bang Theory. Were these two nerds challenged each other as to who was the better athlete. It was super funny. To be honest with you the 308 or the Creed neither one is what would be considered a e l r cartridge. As ELR just begins to starts about the maximum effective range of both of those cartridges ELR match settings start at 1500 yards and goes to 3500 + yards

This is a great analogy.

 

[The D]

Can I play with some hotrod .260 loads?

 

[wildcats]

Wait for it.......

 

[wvfarrier]

I saw this earlier today and its perfect for this thread!!

 

[wildcats]

I much rather have a 260 AI over the CM anyday.

 

[coldboreAU]

308 vs 6.5 creed...
If we're talking seriously about extreme long range competitions, throw them both in the trash. LOL

Or ask Paul Phillips, maybe he would consider a 6.5 at next Ko2m.

 

[Gertvr]

308 vs 6.5 creed...
If we're talking seriously about extreme long range competitions, throw them both in the trash. LOL

Or ask Paul Phillips, maybe he would consider a 6.5 at next Ko2m.

Yea after this is over I might consider selling him mine

 

[TripleBull]

I think of every device as having it's own ELR holy grail. When I'm shooting a recurve bow, I can almost piss that far. I have not shot a 22LR beyond 440 yards and since it was windy the day I did, it seemed kinda ELR-ish. Etc. So I'm into stretching rock-throwing, tomahawks, handguns and rifles as far as I can. That satisfies the ELR wannabe in me.

But make no mistake... The real ELR world is where the most difficult comps live. Things like KO1M and even KO2M are at the short to middle end of the state of the art. People working 3 miles and beyond are at the long end of the state of the art. Sorry, but 6.5 CM and 308 just scratch at the brass heap at the short edge of ELR and don't really play in the game. Granted, stretching any gun you own is part of the process, but until you deal with those real ELR-world problems, you're just slingin' lead and hopefully, havin' fun.

 

[Esoteric Junkie]

This will be a showdown between the 6.5 Creeeeeeeedmooooor and the 3....0.....Great. Nothing more and nothing less. No need to chime in with comments about other cartridges. It will be a longrange shootout between the 3...0......great and the wannabe creeeeeedmooooor....... This is not a conversation about either of these cartridges effectiveness in ELR matches. If I were a betting man, and I am, my prediction is that the 3...0...Great will reign supreme over the 6.5creeeeedmooor...... Gert are you listening.... I like my Benji's unmarked, non-sequential and CRISP!!!

EJ

 

[Longrangeprecision762]

 

[badassgunworks]

Truth is a 6.5 bullet at 3000 fps 140 grain bullet has the sectional density of avrage 190 to 200 grain 308 bullet so unless your shooting a 308 with a 200 grainbullet at 3000 fps you are already at a loss. The big issue is you never see creeds holding up to ftr recoreds of 20 shots in the 10 ring at 1000 shots like the 308 f class guys . Perhaps the quality lever of the shooters

 

[Gertvr]

This will be a showdown between the 6.5 Creeeeeeeedmooooor and the 3....0.....Great. Nothing more and nothing less. No need to chime in with comments about other cartridges. It will be a longrange shootout between the 3...0......great and the wannabe creeeeeedmooooor....... This is not a conversation about either of these cartridges effectiveness in ELR matches. If I were a betting man, and I am, my prediction is that the 3...0...Great will reign supreme over the 6.5creeeeedmooor...... Gert are you listening.... I like my Benji's unmarked, non-sequential and CRISP!!!

EJ

EJ, Thank you for keeping this thread on topic, interesting how quickly it digresses when the actual intent was quite clear in the heading... The rest I couldn't understand, just sounded like ajajajajajajajajajajajajaj CRISP!!!!

 

[Gertvr]

View attachment 7902188

"ACT" is the operative word here....... synonyms: pretend, assume, bluff, sham, simulate, shall I continue.........

 

[ChidJ]

Dang, y'all got me stoked. I think I might be in on this one. Problem is, I think only 308 guys will show up haha

 

[Smithcollector]

Truth is a 6.5 bullet at 3000 fps 140 grain bullet has the sectional density of avrage 190 to 200 grain 308 bullet so unless your shooting a 308 with a 200 grainbullet at 3000 fps you are already at a loss. The big issue is you never see creeds holding up to ftr recoreds of 20 shots in the 10 ring at 1000 shots like the 308 f class guys . Perhaps the quality lever of the shooters

I think the reason you don't see creeds holding records at f class 1000 is that 308 and 223 have their own division in FTR, but if you're going to shoot F-O there are much better projectile options than a 264 / 6.5

 

[babyguppy]

I just saw the CM Bus on the way to the challenge

 

[badassgunworks]

I think the reason you don't see creeds holding records at f class 1000 is that 308 and 223 have their own division in FTR, but if you're going to shoot F-O there are much better projectile options than a 264 / 6.5

They're definitely is some truth to that however the 6.5-284 rained Supreme for many years

 

[Gertvr]

I just saw the CM Bus on the way to the challenge

Sooooo Cute

 

[Smithcollector]

They're definitely is some truth to that however the 6.5-284 rained Supreme for many years

When did the faster twist barrels and heavier 308s become more prevalent?

 

[Esoteric Junkie]

When did the faster twist barrels and heavier 308s become more prevalent?

Back in the 90's it was common for us sling shooters to use 190's at in the 30Great. They worked well and bucked the wind better than 168's and 155's depending on the speed. Most are not using 200gr+ now but those that are immediately see the advantage.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Pixie dust...

vs the 30-Hate.

 

[badassgunworks]

When did the faster twist barrels and heavier 308s become more prevalent?

308 is ft- r 6.5 -284 was f-open

 

[Longreacher]

I still have 6.5 Creeeeedmoooor 6.5 Creeeeedmoooor ringing in my ears all day long. EJ has committed psychological warfare. It will not be tolerated, threeeee00000grt is going down!

 

[Esoteric Junkie]

I still have 6.5 Creeeeedmoooor 6.5 Creeeeedmoooor ringing in my ears all day long. EJ has committed psychological warfare. It will not be tolerated, threeeee00000grt is going down!

The psychological warefare has JUST begun. The 6.5 creeeeedmoooor tongue lashing that you received at Blakley was only a preamble of things to come. The real beat down is on the way! The 6.5creeeeeedmoooooor is the one going down!!! Down on it's knees before the 3.....0...GREAT

 

[wvfarrier]

Three Oh Eight Always and FOREVER

 

[Phil McGrath]

I just saw the CM Bus on the way to the challenge

Ahhhh, I thought that’s the 6 Gay Tiger bus?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Ahhhh, I thought that’s the 6 Gay Tiger bus?

I figured it was what everyone in this thread was riding around on?

 

[The D]

I figured it was what everyone in this thread was riding around on?

Not short enough

 

[Gertvr]

I figured it was what everyone in this thread was riding around on?

Welcome aboard.....

 

[Gertvr]

While you are thinking of the next cute/pithy psych-ops comment about the not so great 308 or the 6 gay tiger bus its time to set the parameters for this shootout.

I suggest that we compete in 2 categories for the shootout:
a) one with factory ammo of the same type for example Hornady Match ammo whatever weight suits your system best, that everyone that owns these 2 gun calibers, have access to and can shoot, and
b) hand load that is not AI, or excessive pressure (not sure how to effectively measure this, maybe software simulation not exceeding the SAAMI specs) and can safely be shot in a match, powder and bullets are free choice

Parameters
1) On paper NRA official targets at 600 and 1k Yds score as per match maybe using e-Targets like Shotmarker or similar ( " 2 sighters, one more than Jack Reacher got" & 10 shots recorded)
2) on IPSIC (18x30) or similar steel targets 1200yds - 1 mile, mile+? "2 sighters" & 10 shots per target, count hits
3) Same unbiased spotter/s for shooters of both rifles
4) Cartridge with the highest combined score over the all the participating shooters and tests win overall.
5) Score the 2 categories separately to evaluate the performance with factory and optimized ammunition and declare winner for each of these

Equipment
i) Bolt action or gas gun (same gun for both test strings)
ii) Scope/base whatever you have on your rifle
iii) Bipod and rear bag, no belly benchrest
iv) muzzle brake or tuners free
v) barrel length whatever you choose to bring to run both test strings
vi) ballistic solvers, weather meters, free

Limitations
a) ceiling: stratosphere (308 take note)
b) No AI, Sherman or any other capacity increase over the SAAMI spec for 6.5CM and .308/7.62x54


This is what I suggest, I am by no means a competitive shooter or know everything about setting up shootouts, so I have my flame suit on, let me know if you all agree to this, seems quite fair to me, but then what do I know., I'm not from around here.

Happy 4th of July!

Gert

 

[roostercogburn98]

Welcome aboard.....

I drive that motherfucker

 

[The D]

While you are thinking of the next cute/pithy psych-ops comment about the not so great 308 or the 6 gay tiger bus its time to set the parameters for this shootout.

I suggest that we compete in 2 categories for the shootout:
a) one with factory ammo of the same type for example Hornady Match ammo whatever weight suits your system best, that everyone that owns these 2 gun calibers, have access to and can shoot, and
b) hand load that is not AI, or excessive pressure (not sure how to effectively measure this, maybe software simulation not exceeding the SAAMI specs) and can safely be shot in a match, powder and bullets are free choice

Parameters
1) On paper NRA official targets at 600 and 1k Yds score as per match maybe using e-Targets like Shotmarker or similar ( " 2 sighters, one more than Jack Reacher got" & 10 shots recorded)
2) on IPSIC (18x30) or similar steel targets 1200yds - 1 mile, mile+? "2 sighters" & 10 shots per target, count hits
3) Same unbiased spotter/s for shooters of both rifles
4) Cartridge with the highest combined score over the all the participating shooters and tests win overall.
5) Score the 2 categories separately to evaluate the performance with factory and optimized ammunition and declare winner for each of these

Equipment
i) Bolt action or gas gun (same gun for both test strings)
ii) Scope/base whatever you have on your rifle
iii) Bipod and rear bag, no belly benchrest
iv) muzzle brake or tuners free
v) barrel length whatever you choose to bring to run both test strings
vi) ballistic solvers, weather meters, free

Limitations
a) ceiling: stratosphere (308 take note)
b) No AI, Sherman or any other capacity increase over the SAAMI spec for 6.5CM and .308/7.62x54


This is what I suggest, I am by no means a competitive shooter or know everything about setting up shootouts, so I have my flame suit on, let me know if you all agree to this, seems quite fair to me, but then what do I know., I'm not from around here.

Happy 4th of July!

Gert

C’mon man, these parameters won’t seal a predetermined victory for the .308.

What you really need to do is stipulate that the creedmoor be shot by someone’s 8yo daughter, using the shittiest ammo available, through an original creedmoor test barrel with a trillion rounds on it.

But the .308 can use the hottest handloads with the slickest solids in a bench rest barrel and be shot by one of the top competitors

That’ll show everyone how worthless the 6.5 gaymoor is compared to the .30great

 

[The D]

I drive that motherfucker

But I’ll ride shotgun

 

[TripleBull]

Aren't you going to have a pellet gun division in your comps?

 

[Gertvr]

Aren't you going to have a pellet gun division in your comps?

Yes of course, after the shootout we will have a pellet gun vs 308, they might be successful there. Thanks for the excellent suggestion

 

[Esoteric Junkie]

While you are thinking of the next cute/pithy psych-ops comment about the not so great 308 or the 6 gay tiger bus its time to set the parameters for this shootout.

I suggest that we compete in 2 categories for the shootout:
a) one with factory ammo of the same type for example Hornady Match ammo whatever weight suits your system best, that everyone that owns these 2 gun calibers, have access to and can shoot, and
b) hand load that is not AI, or excessive pressure (not sure how to effectively measure this, maybe software simulation not exceeding the SAAMI specs) and can safely be shot in a match, powder and bullets are free choice

Parameters
1) On paper NRA official targets at 600 and 1k Yds score as per match maybe using e-Targets like Shotmarker or similar ( " 2 sighters, one more than Jack Reacher got" & 10 shots recorded)
2) on IPSIC (18x30) or similar steel targets 1200yds - 1 mile, mile+? "2 sighters" & 10 shots per target, count hits
3) Same unbiased spotter/s for shooters of both rifles
4) Cartridge with the highest combined score over the all the participating shooters and tests win overall.
5) Score the 2 categories separately to evaluate the performance with factory and optimized ammunition and declare winner for each of these

Equipment
i) Bolt action or gas gun (same gun for both test strings)
ii) Scope/base whatever you have on your rifle
iii) Bipod and rear bag, no belly benchrest
iv) muzzle brake or tuners free
v) barrel length whatever you choose to bring to run both test strings
vi) ballistic solvers, weather meters, free

Limitations
a) ceiling: stratosphere (308 take note)
b) No AI, Sherman or any other capacity increase over the SAAMI spec for 6.5CM and .308/7.62x54


This is what I suggest, I am by no means a competitive shooter or know everything about setting up shootouts, so I have my flame suit on, let me know if you all agree to this, seems quite fair to me, but then what do I know., I'm not from around here.

Happy 4th of July!

Gert

Gert,
It is a steel plate range and you are making things way too complicated. Go ahead and get prepared for the ultimate beat down and humiliation! I suggest we not engage targets at one mile because the 6.5 creeeeeeedmooooor short bus is not large enough to transport all the creeed fanboys to destination FuXXed Run what you brung and hope you brung enough. You and all the creed fanboys will be taught a valuable lesson..... dont FuXX with the 3.....0.......GREAT!!!! You just have to get your mind right and plan on getting on the rainbow creed short bus!!!

Ej

 

[Esoteric Junkie]

 

[Gertvr]

Gert,
It is a steel plate range and you are making things way too complicated. Go ahead and get prepared for the ultimate beat down and humiliation! I suggest we not engage targets at one mile because the 6.5 creeeeeeedmooooor short bus is not large enough to transport all the creeed fanboys to destination FuXXed Run what you brung and hope you brung enough. You and all the creed fanboys will be taught a valuable lesson..... dont FuXX with the 3.....0.......GREAT!!!! You just have to get your mind right and plan on getting on the rainbow creed short bus!!!

Ej

 

[Gertvr]

 

[jasent]

I can’t believe I just waisted 3 min of my life reading this thread!

 

[The D]

I can’t believe I just waisted 3 min of my life reading this thread!

Only 3 min ?

I’ve wasted 3 minutes just trying to type this response…

 

[jasent]

Only 3 min ?

I’ve wasted 3 minutes just trying to type this response…

Hunt and peck is tough

 

[The D]

Hunt and peck is tough

Especially being shithouse drunk

 

[Gertvr]

Well, I think enough time has gone by for those who have lost time reading this thread to have recovered.

Threee ohhhh notso greaaaat fanboys time to show us what you've got.... name the time and the place

 

[kthomas]

You should do .22lr versus .408CT next...

 

[wjwill]

Just sayin..

 

[Gertvr]

That's it, that's the last straw, that is just wrong on so many levels, re-barreling to PRC.

 

[verdugo60]

This thread is SO retarded, start to finish. For a second there I thought I had stumbled into ARFCOM but somehow with more gay.