Night Vision Thermal advice/input needed

[TNVC_Will]

Yes I'm a lurker and been reading the threads about thermals. Posting now because I'm an I2 guy with a white belt in thermal. Need to stay low $2k range. Mainly handheld w/ I2 but occasional weapon mount for varmint/predator. 223-to-30 cal max ar platform. Will mostly be used in dense juniper, pinyon, grass and rocks (Northern AZ). Will see a little desert SW. I'm looking at the PTS233 but don't want to get the scout tk of weapon sights if that makes sense. What else fits, Pulsar xyz123 and/or..? Video recording needed and 123's not internal.

Thanks

 

[wigwamitus]

The issue with the PtS233 and the Pulsar rxq30v is that they are fixed focus at 50yds. So they fuzz up pretty fast beyond 100yds.

For looking for the cat in the backyard they are fine, but for hunting they come up short.

The Pulsar APEX xq38 is the bottom of the bucket in terms of hunting usable thermals, in my book.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-pl76417-apex-xq38-dig-nv-scp.html

You should be able to get one for around $2,250.

Call OP and 2 other dealers and tell them you will buy today for $2,250 and if they say no, tell them you will think about it and move on. If no one goes for that offer, come back here and let us know and we will come up with another plan.

Used APEX can be had for under $2,000 but you have to find one available and people actually tend to be holding on to them because they get the job done in most conditions.

 

[benzy2]

Opticsplanet has a 10% off code which gets you under $2250 for that apex. I’d use that as a bargaining chip for some of the local stores. Worst case, you get one from OP.

 

[TNVC_Will]

That’s great info. I figured they must be better than the PTS233 because they keep coming up for sale but you don’t see the pulsars. What are the real world detection and ID ranges for the xq38?

The issue with the PtS233 and the Pulsar rxq30v is that they are fixed focus at 50yds. So they fuzz up pretty fast beyond 100yds.

For looking for the cat in the backyard they are fine, but for hunting they come up short.

The Pulsar APEX xq38 is the bottom of the bucket in terms of hunting usable thermals, in my book.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-pl76417-apex-xq38-dig-nv-scp.html

You should be able to get one for around $2,250.

Call OP and 2 other dealers and tell them you will buy today for $2,250 and if they say no, tell them you will think about it and move on. If no one goes for that offer, come back here and let us know and we will come up with another plan.

Used APEX can be had for under $2,000 but you have to find one available and people actually tend to be holding on to them because they get the job done in most conditions.

 

[wigwamitus]

... What are the real world detection and ID ranges for the xq38?

Maybe you don't want to hear this, but with all thermals, "it depends on the conditions."

You can see "blobs" (cows) out to a mile plus in decent (thermal) conditions around were I am (central Kansas).

IDing critters instantly based on shape is tough, if you see them broadside then under 300yds in devent (thermal) conditions. IDing critters after observing movement, can be done much farther out. That said it matters what the critter is and the above are for yotes, deer and hogs. For coons and opossum 150yds can be done for sure. For rats, 100yds. That said, I've shot a couple of birds, thinking they were rats. But I've learned the habbits of the birds and don't shoot them now.

IDing critters takes experience. It isn't like day time. When I first when out with a thermal, I couldn't tell a turkey from a deer. Or a rabbit from a rat. Now it is easy to PID yotes at 500yds with head mounted thermal while I and the yote are moving.

So the answer to your question is not an absolute, "it depends" on conditions including the experience of the observer. Even detection can be tricky. I shot some rocks early on. Now I require myself to see movement.

 

[TNVC_Will]

I go between low and high desert. I can see how in the summer rocks could totally fuck you over.

Thanks for the advice. I’ll give the make offer try a shot tomorrow. Obviously want something in stock. Totally sucks making the jump and then waiting. Too much time to think you made the wrong decision. Hate that

Maybe you don't want to hear this, but with all thermals, "it depends on the conditions."

You can see "blobs" (cows) out to a mile plus in decent (thermal) conditions around were I am (central Kansas).

IDing critters instantly based on shape is tough, if you see them broadside then under 300yds in devent (thermal) conditions. IDing critters after observing movement, can be done much farther out. That said it matters what the critter is and the above are for yotes, deer and hogs. For coons and opossum 150yds can be done for sure. For rats, 100yds. That said, I've shot a couple of birds, thinking they were rats. But I've learned the habbits of the birds and don't shoot them now.

IDing critters takes experience. It isn't like day time. When I first when out with a thermal, I couldn't tell a turkey from a deer. Or a rabbit from a rat. Now it is easy to PID yotes at 500yds with head mounted thermal while I and the yote are moving.

So the answer to your question is not an absolute, "it depends" on conditions including the experience of the observer. Even detection can be tricky. I shot some rocks early on. Now I require myself to see movement.

 

[BigTex]

I have a couple Pulsar XD50s and they have done everything I have ever asked. I went from an IRD MKIII to 2 Pulsar units so me and someone else could hunt at the same time. The MKIII is an outstanding piece of equipment, but the Pulsar is good enough for everything I do.

 

[BigTex]

All shot from point blank to ~300yds.

 

[ccoker]

I run a PTS233 on my 6.8
I can spot stuff out 800 yards in an open field and can make an educated guess as to what they are.
I am out doing hog eradication from time to time on the hunting property.. and generally speaking like to spot and then sneak in close with the wind in my face and take out pigs close range.. I just find it the most fun. It's pretty easy to distinguish between deer and hogs at 150 yards but if there are hogs mixed in with cows and calfs you need to be much closer to be 1000% sure.

I have used many other more expensive thermals and they do work better at long range of course.
I like the PTS233, it's compact and light and I actually remove it from the gun and use for spotting, then remount and stalk in closer.

My brother bought one too..
If I needed to be able to take longer shots I would move up the food chain but for what we are using them for they are good and I plan to just have it in my pack during the deer season to scan predawn or help track a deer for someone else on the property if need be

These image shows hogs at about 75 yards, at 1x (image through scope looks better)

These are the 3 big ones

Video of a smaller one, got within about 30 yards before he realized something was off and bolted..

 

[Hobbes442]

I have IR Defense(trijicon) Mark 2 and I love it . I almost sold it and bot Pulsar XP50 trail but got talked out of it by Ultimate night vision guy . if I didn't have IR now , would buy xp50 for lower $

 

[TNVC_Will]

Got a Trail XQ38 with QD mount on the way from Huey Outdoors - thanks Wigwamitus for all your help!

 

[Rerun7]

You’ll enjoy that trail. Got my first hogs with one over the weekend. Great experience and lots of fun.

 

[TNVC_Will]

I'm excited. Can't wait to try it out

 

[TNVC_Will]

This Trail XQ38 so far is awesome (haven't had a chance to shoot anything yet) and the Pulsar qd mount seems pretty solid. Mr. Todd Huey is a good dude - definitely recommend to buy from him!

Have a few questions:

1) When using this handheld anybody figure out a way to lanyard it or similar as a backup from a drop?

2) Any suggested display settings besides what looks best to the eye? Messed around a lot but went back to the default 10/6 settings (brightness/contrast).

3) Looking for zero tips from Pulsar users. This is what I did.

Started at 50y, came to 25 (couldn't see hits), back to 50, and 100. No bench rest but Harris bp w/ stock supported. At 50 & 100 through the scope I couldn't find a real accurate way to mark the bullet impact with the x to zero it. I went back-n-forth between a spot scope and the trail and ball parked it. Aiming at a paper 100y zero target with a thermal sticker center. Thought about but didn't use a sticker to mark the impacts. It looked to me that once you got close to center both stickers would turn into one signature.

I ended with about 10" group at 100y. 16" 5.56 w/ can and Fed XM193 55gr. When I was breaking down I realized I didn't have the qd as tight as it should've been. It was sloppy side-to-side. Will re-shoot by this weekend I'm sure it'll tighten up but would like to try any better zero methods.

 

[Yellowhammer]

For a lanyard I'll take a thick zip tie and slide a piece of heat shrink tubing on it to act as a cushion between the housing and the plastic tie. Then tighten up the zip tie around the scope. Then I have a small HK style snap ring on my lanyard that I'll attach to the clip to the fastened zip tie. If that scope has a pic rail built on you can also get a magpul forward sling attachment and put it on the pic rail for an attachment point.

For zeroing I use a weighted shooting vice for the gun & the smallest hot hands I can find for targets.

Tighten the gun down in the vice and shoot at a hot hand at the middle of the target. If conditions are right you should be able to see the bullet hole in the paper. Then move your gun so the crosshairs are on the first point of impact and lock it down again. Once it's locked in solid so it can't move you can adjust the reticle back onto the original bullseye. You should be real close to zero'd at that point.

You can do some real fine tuning at that point to get it perfect. I put some pennies in a zip lock with Ice and then glue them to the paper for the final touches...just hustle back to the firing line if it's hot out or the penny will warm back up. Use a proper spotting scope to get it just right.

There are probably better methods out there but that worked for me.

Todd's great, he has some real informative stuff on his page.

 

[wigwamitus]

Oh my .. here is how I zero all thermal scopes.

Since, I am using them for hunting .. I zero at 50yds ... that gives me a double zero somewhere between 100yds and 200yds depending on the gun and the cartridge. And between these double zero distances, typically the variation is rise of the bullet, is under 2 inches. And hence we are "flat" between 50yds and the double zero distance.

==
So I use handwarmers for the targets ... and yes, handwarmers are too large for ideal ... but that is what I use. I shoot off tripod ... loots like this, except it is dark ..

I first setup a target ... like a 50yd target ... and then staple the handwarmer to the target ... then setup the tripod and the gun ... it takes the handwarmer a few minutes to get nice and hot.

Then fire my groups ... until I am hitting the center of the handwarmer.

Here first group was low ... second group was centered ...

So zeroing these thermals, is not the same (for me) as zeroing a precision rifle ... that I do at 100yds ...

But for hunting I zero at 50yds ... I do use the magnetoSpeed even for zeroing the thermals because I want to know where my double zero is .. and the magnetoSpeed tells me, without me having to walk out and shoot to find the double zero. Much faster and requires less ammo !


==
And to zero any thermal scope ... I "chase the impact point with the reticle" ... so after each shot, I try to move the reticle (with the internal scope adjustments) so that the reticle sits where the bullet hit. And I keep shooting until I have a group centered on the handwarmer. Then I'm good. And before any real hunt, I recheck my zero.

 

[TNVC_Will]

That gives me an idea for a lanyard. No pic rail on the xq38 trail but since I have the qd mount I'll try bolting together a couple pic rails back-to-back and using a sling swivel. Lot's of options from there.

This is my first thermal scope and first time zeroing thermal. Makes sense about conditions affecting seeing the holes. I wasn't sure if it'd be able to see them at all. At 50y/4.2x and 100y/8.4x I couldn't see them but I was also using an outdoor public range with shot up target stands w/ backings that the paper is taped to. It's also hot as hell and pretty muggy for So. NV

Thanks for the info!

For a lanyard I'll take a thick zip tie and slide a piece of heat shrink tubing on it to act as a cushion between the housing and the plastic tie. Then tighten up the zip tie around the scope. Then I have a small HK style snap ring on my lanyard that I'll attach to the clip to the fastened zip tie. If that scope has a pic rail built on you can also get a magpul forward sling attachment and put it on the pic rail for an attachment point.

For zeroing I use a weighted shooting vice for the gun & the smallest hot hands I can find for targets.

Tighten the gun down in the vice and shoot at a hot hand at the middle of the target. If conditions are right you should be able to see the bullet hole in the paper. Then move your gun so the crosshairs are on the first point of impact and lock it down again. Once it's locked in solid so it can't move you can adjust the reticle back onto the original bullseye. You should be real close to zero'd at that point.

You can do some real fine tuning at that point to get it perfect. I put some pennies in a zip lock with Ice and then glue them to the paper for the final touches...just hustle back to the firing line if it's hot out or the penny will warm back up. Use a proper spotting scope to get it just right.

There are probably better methods out there but that worked for me.

Todd's great, he has some real informative stuff on his page.

 

[Yellowhammer]

Yes, pretty much worst time of the year for thermal (not that they still aren't amazing). That air temp & humidity isn't doing any favors.

In cooler weather you should be able to see bullet holes no problem. Do what wigwamitus does, he's the guy to ask!

 

[TNVC_Will]

What do you recommend for a decent and budget friendly tripod, mount, etc. I saw some pic rail adapters to go on ball mounts on Amazon but I have no idea what's what yet, lol.

Oh my .. here is how I zero all thermal scopes.

Since, I am using them for hunting .. I zero at 50yds ... that gives me a double zero somewhere between 100yds and 200yds depending on the gun and the cartridge. And between these double zero distances, typically the variation is rise of the bullet, is under 2 inches. And hence we are "flat" between 50yds and the double zero distance.

==
So I use handwarmers for the targets ... and yes, handwarmers are too large for ideal ... but that is what I use. I shoot off tripod ... loots like this, except it is dark ..

I first setup a target ... like a 50yd target ... and then staple the handwarmer to the target ... then setup the tripod and the gun ... it takes the handwarmer a few minutes to get nice and hot.

Then fire my groups ... until I am hitting the center of the handwarmer.

Here first group was low ... second group was centered ...

So zeroing these thermals, is not the same (for me) as zeroing a precision rifle ... that I do at 100yds ...

But for hunting I zero at 50yds ... I do use the magnetoSpeed even for zeroing the thermals because I want to know where my double zero is .. and the magnetoSpeed tells me, without me having to walk out and shoot to find the double zero. Much faster and requires less ammo !


==
And to zero any thermal scope ... I "chase the impact point with the reticle" ... so after each shot, I try to move the reticle (with the internal scope adjustments) so that the reticle sits where the bullet hit. And I keep shooting until I have a group centered on the handwarmer. Then I'm good. And before any real hunt, I recheck my zero.

 

[wigwamitus]

You don't have to use a tripod ! Hecque, in my pic I could've laid down on the gravel (ouch) or the back of that trailer (which I've done) !

==
But if you want a tripod ... and you don't want an RRS ... then I use the Manfrottos ...

The M190 three section ... with the 322RC2 head ... and there is an m-lok magpul pic rail adapter ... I use the McRee Precision pic rail adapter ...

Do you need links to all these, or is your google foo up to the task !!??

==
Those are a pair of manfrottos ... the 6.5G(18) on the M190 322RC2 on the left ...

And the .300WM(24) on the M055 RSTSII on the right ... I do not recommend the RSTSII ... I got a second 322RC2 subsequently.

==

 

[TNVC_Will]

I have to mention this for other thermal newbies - when I first posted and wigwamitus said the xq38 was the bottom of the barrel for hunting and the pts233 and rxq30v fuzz up quickly, I see what he means exactly. I'm glad I went the Pulsar route vs Flir. Having the adjustable focus IMO is a must and even with it the digital zoom makes the image blurry. I would be pissed to spend over $2k and have already blurry stuff get even blurrier when when zooming. This is just my opinion I haven't used a pts233, however, with less pixels, lower base mag, and no focusing I can't see myself choosing this over the xq38. The pts233 has more palettes but that's not enough for me. The Flir Scout TK I had for a very short time had a lot of palettes too. It was cool looking at my dog in the yard but nowhere near functional for serious use. That's why wigwamitus' first reply hit home and I wrote it off my list asap. Great advice I received from him and others on this site.

I'm also very happy with the decision to go 38 vs 50. I'll be scanning handheld a lot and the higher mag of the 50 wouldn't have worked for the terrain. I think the 38 is just right because it gives a good base image up to 100 yards or so. Any less or more mag I don't think I'd like it. I definitely see in my future a 640 but being new to thermal it's better to go figure stuff out and learn before buying again. Unless you have the money to burn of course

 

[TNVC_Will]

Man, I see no pics...? I'm not even drunk yet

 

[Yellowhammer]

Wig's picture

 

[Yellowhammer]

Wig's picture #2

 

[Yellowhammer]

Wig's picture #3

 

[wigwamitus]

... 38 vs 50 ...

The main plus of the 38 over the 50 is greater field of view ... and for inside 100yds ... that is important. I do most of my critter control around the chicken coop ... under 100yds .... FOV is king.

Experiment with the PIP feature. It can help with shot placement and is available with a 1 button push.

 

[Hobbes442]

I sometimes use plywood and cut circular hole in middle and have hand warmer on back side so a true circle shows up . also a metal farm disk blade works great , cause once you shoot first time, the bullet hole stands out

 

[Yellowhammer]

I sometimes use plywood and cut circular hole in middle and have hand warmer on back side so a true circle shows up . also a metal farm disk blade works great , cause once you shoot first time, the bullet hole stands out

That's pretty slick, I'm going to try that when I get back into thermals.

 

[TNVC_Will]

Agreed. That plywood deal I gotta try this weekend. Thanks for the tip

 

[TNVC_Will]

Plywood, hole bit, & hand warmers did the trick. Great tip, thanks Hobbes442. Finishing nails worked good to hold them in place.

Pic rail w/ QD sling hole and 550 cord works great for a neck lanyard using the Pulsar QD mount. Only downside is the XQ38 gets a little heavy if you're scanning a lot.

Anybody use the Vortex pic rail tripod adapter? It's $25 which makes me go hmm. You can use with any head vs the LaRue or Magpul. Got one coming with a Pergear metal ball head.

 

[Hogrider2000]

follow wigs method of adjusting the thermal reticle. if you cannot see the whole at 50 yards I use a spotting scope to make sure I am fairly close and then I walk the 50 yards and put either a piece of duct tape or electrican tape about the size of a nickle over the whole and then go back and make the adjustments.make sure the weapon is secure when doing this process.

 

[Team Stone]

I recently purchased the Pulsar XQ38 Trail.
Needing to know what video converter app everyone is using to convert their video from the scope to phone and it save to your camera roll please. Icon is no longer available in the US. The ones I have downloaded and paid the upgrade for absolutely suck and won’t save to my camera roll. The 2 I currently have is Iconverter+ and Iconverter that look identical. Any help and suggestions are much appreciated! Thanks...

 

[TNVC_Will]

I'm interested also.

I've been using the viewfinder on the phone (awesome feature) and snatch the vids later using the cable to a laptop.

 

[wigwamitus]

I send the vids directly from my phone to youTube.