Night Vision Thermal or gen 3 nv

[jesse_eng]

I have a chance for a good price on a Flir T70 clip on. This will be my first time buying any night optics.

My primary use would be for hunting axis deer at night with shot potential up to 300 yards. I will be stationary and shooting from a tripod that direct connects to my rifles swiss-arca mount and is a real solid platform. My two rifles set up for this have a Vortex Razor gen ii 4.5-27x on a 6.5 creedmoor and the other has a Vortex pst 1-6 on a 308. I may use it for hog hunts as well in the same fashion.

My question is would I be better off with the T70 in front of either scope, or would a good gen 3 clip on work better? My concern is being able to identify the difference between a whitetail and an axis deer. When the axis is in velvet I am sure the thermal would work fine, but am worried about when they are hard horn and also telling the differences between doe of each type.

Eventually I will invest in a handheld scanner, but with the tripod set up I can scan easily just using the ball head of the tripod and sweeping the area. I have around a 120 degree view of a field in front of where I will be sitting.

 

[wigwamitus]

For hunting inside 300yds, you'll be better off with a dedicated thermal, in general. However, if you have special PID requirements such as you mention with various deer (I don't think I've ever hunted in a state where it was legal to hunt deer at night, but I guess there are some) then NV Clipon with an illuminator would be better. Right now, the SIMRADs and the PVS-30 refurbs are the rage ... the SIMRADs run anywhere between $1,100 and $2,200 ... where as the PVS-30 refurbs are around $4,700.

Here's a SIMRAD kn253 on a 5.56(18).

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And here's a PVS-30 on the same 5.56(18).

The main downsides to the PVS-30 are it costs more than the SIMRADs and weighs more as well. Also, its focus ring is well forward and quite a stretch if you are trying to stay behind the scope.

The SIMRAD is thus lighter, costs less and the focus and gain control are on the very back so easy to reach.

The SIMRAD mounts on top of the scope so you don't need an NV mount on the front of your gun. But mounting it on larger scopes might require some "jiggling". It actually mounts on a special mount that attaches to the top of the front scope ring. Both badger and spuhr make such attachments.

The kn253 nomially supports 10x to 12x on the day scope ... I've shot mine up to 18x ... its a little fuzzy but I can still see the target, like I can see a 3/4 inch sticky dot I stick on the center of my bulls on my targets. The kn203 is a pound heavier, so in the ball park of the PVS-30 and nomially supports 14x to 15x. on the day scope. The PVS-30 nominally supports 16x to 20x.

But I like the weight of the kn253 and I can mount it with one hand. And the controls are reachable while staying on the target.

If you're shooting off a solid tripod and not first humping a mile through the woods to get setup, then the weight might not be an issue for you.

Oh and the SIMRAD has an extra collimating step when you zero, but once zeroed on a given gun/scope combo you can mount/dismount without loosing your zero.

Anyway, these military units, costing so little $$ has opened up the market and quite a few of us on here are partaking in this situation and getting some great NV clipons for much lower cost than they have been in prior times.

 

[ajwcotton]

I don't think you could tell the difference between an axis and whitetail with a thermal. The bodies are pretty dang similar. At night with thermal you don't know the range so perspective is also not going to help you. I don't even know how well a good gen 3 clip on would do to be honest. Definitely better than thermal though. 200 and in you could probably tell especially with the horns, but at night and out to 300 yards will be tough, Especially the does. I don't know how well you could see the spots under NV since I've never looked at an axis deer at night.

I assume this is some sort of high fence cull hunt if that is the case, white light them on a feeder is probably the best bet.
Don't take this the wrong way, I've got 1000's of hours under all kinds of NV and Thermal gear and I don't think I would be comfortable telling them apart from very far away.

Whatever you decide to do I would look at some sort of rangefinder, It is extremely difficult to judge distance at night through any NV device or thermal a silencerco radius is a good option if you use a I2 clip on you can see the laser flash on the target to verify it is actually ranging what you think it is. I wouldn't trust it nearly as much if I was using it with a thermal since you can't see the laser in thermal. the mount on them is mot the best and prone to shifting if it is treated rough.

I'm not really impressed much in terms of clip on thermal devices. With the exception of the LWTS I would take a dedicated thermal sight like the Trijicon mkIII or reap IR over the flir t70 clip on or the utm models.

You might be able to get one of the trade in PVS 30's and a hand held scanner for a decent price, that is probably one of the most versatile systems out there.

 

[BigTex]

You won't be able to tell an axis from a wt with thermal, not with 100% confidence anyhow.

 

[jesse_eng]

Doesn't sound promising being able to 100% identify between an axis and a whitetail at night. Shooting a whitetail at night would be big trouble even if taken from mis-id.

Would the Armasight co-lr or the co-xlr be in the same performance field as a refurb pvs-30?

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Would the Armasight co-lr or the co-xlr be in the same performance field as a refurb pvs-30?

No, my experience is that they are not even in the same league. The CO-X (although has value at it's price point) is more of a toy compared to the PVS
-30. My entry level was the Armasight but when I got the Knight it was like...............really?

 

[wigwamitus]

... Would the Armasight co-lr or the co-xlr be in the same performance field as a refurb pvs-30? ...

Short answer "no". But why even ask the question? With the current low pricing on the PVS-30, it is a no brainer to go with the PVS-30. Robustness alone is so lopsided as to be incomparible. Reliability of POI shift? I know I can put the 30 on any rifle/scope I have and it will be dead on.
Image, well image has the tube as one of the variable, but the lens system in 30 will not give up anything at all to the lens system in the armasights.
Why even think about it ??


And if price is an issue, then look at the SIMRADs.

So no need to scrap the bottom of the barrel and think about products from a now defunct company. And BTW, I've had a CO-LR with a 30 snr tube. It had a decent image BUT, it died an early death due to a crack in the tube mounting internally which armasight agreed to repair, but when FLIR bought them (my issue unfortunately straddled the merger) FLIR reneged on the repair.

 

[RickyRodney]

I have heard their is a company that can upgrade a t70 to a t75 for a fair fee. I would HIGHLY consider a thermal over the NV. High end thermal such as the LWTS in the classified section can see AND id animals at range. Personally after looking through both I would go thermal. However I have not looked through a PVS-30 to do that type of comparison. The final point of consideration is with NV like a PVS-4 you won't even see targets to identify compared to what you will see with the thermal.

 

[jesse_eng]

I have no doubt I can ID that it is a deer with thermal. I am looking at the T70 or even a T75, however I need to be able to identify the species. The only real differences are visually seeing the horns, or the pattern of spots on them and the black stripe down the Axis deers back.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

if you need spots, stripes and shading to ID the difference then NV is your only real option. many tout thermal over nv but its typically those that haven't ran or used both to any real degree.

they both have a place in the night world. both have strengths and weakness that cannot be filled by the other....at all. if you need one that does most things well then get NV. if you want to cover all aspects then get both. if you just wanna detect shit and shoot it and it doesn't require anything more than shape/form id then get a thermal.

 

[jesse_eng]

I appreciate the input guys. I'm going to start asking neighbors and friends and try to find a pvs30 to try out and compare it to the T70 when I get one in hand to demo. Just hoping that a few Axis will show up to test them against.

 

[RickyRodney]

Well if you need to see spots and distinct features to do species ID, killswitch is right there. No axis deer in my AO. If decide to go NV I would still encourage you to get both so you can detect all your targets.

 

[deersniper]

Ideal solution would be buy that T70. Then buy my Gen3 PVS4 for $1500. You will be set then.