Thermal scope ideas

[alamo5000]

I have been asked about 15 times so far what I want for Christmas. Honestly I have almost everything I need already but there are a few more expensive items that I'm saving for.

I am tempted to tell everyone to please forego ties and socks as a present for me and to pool the money so I can get a thermal scope.

I am not dead set on any one brand or thing. This is where you come into play.

I need ideas for a possible semi entry level thermal scope.

A couple of features that I've seen that I really like are pretty much summed up with the AMG Rattler.

I like that it's a clip on. I also like that you can run it as a stand alone scope, but that you can also mount it forward of a scope and use it that way as well. It can also be used as a hand held monocular as well.

I definitely would like to have an external power supply option.

The price range is negotiable but I don't want to ask someone to spend themselves into the poor house for something like this. Hence I might ask everyone to just pitch in what they can and I will supplement the rest. That said I'm looking at $1000 to $1500 price range to start with.

Anyway if you know of any other options that I can look at please let me know.

I have zero experience in thermal optics so I'm really looking for a somewhat of a starter unit. It will not be used in ultra harsh abusive situations but I don't want a piece of junk either.

Please help point me in the right direction.

 

[Conqueror]

Your budget is frankly very low, no judgment there, but it’s going to sharply limit the available options to pretty much AGM or maybe ATN. “Good” thermal scopes start at like double that and “Really good” are in the ~4K and up niche. This is very much not a cheap game to play.

 

[CBDR]

Do you want it or do you need it? If it's a matter of wanting it go slow and do your research. Lots to learn on this topic. Read the older posts here.

R/
CBDR

 

[alamo5000]

Your budget is frankly very low, no judgment there, but it’s going to sharply limit the available options to pretty much AGM or maybe ATN. “Good” thermal scopes start at like double that and “Really good” are in the ~4K and up niche. This is very much not a cheap game to play.

That's not exactly a "budget" but rather noting that I don't know anything about thermal optics.

I have the cash to buy pretty much anything I want but I don't want to spend that money if I don't have to.

Basically I said that as a starting point more than anything. I also definitely don't want to make anyone feel obligated to spend money that they might not have on me. If it winds up where they can pool together a thousand bucks and I drop another thousand or two then so be it.

Obviously I want a thermal optic but it's not something that I just have to have right now.

 

[KYAggie]

Look at the Burris BTS line and the lower Bering Optics Hogsters or Stimulus. They are in that price range or close to it. I can only point you in that direction, I have not used either companies thermals.

 

[alamo5000]

Do you want it or do you need it? If it's a matter of wanting it go slow and do your research. Lots to learn on this topic. Read the older posts here.

R/
CBDR

Definitely a want. There is no "need" in this at all.

 

[Conqueror]

That's not exactly a "budget" but rather noting that I don't know anything about thermal optics.

I have the cash to buy pretty much anything I want but I don't want to spend that money if I don't have to.

Basically I said that as a starting point more than anything. I also definitely don't want to make anyone feel obligated to spend money that they might not have on me. If it winds up where they can pool together a thousand bucks and I drop another thousand or two then so be it.

Obviously I want a thermal optic but it's not something that I just have to have right now.

OK well its pretty hard to make you a sensible recommendation when you haven't given us an intended use and your criteria are "it could be all three types of thermal system and my budget is whatever I want."

It sounds like you like all the features of the Rattler and you don't want to leap in with both feet, so why not just buy that? The next cheapest thing that can do clip on/dedicated/monocular is probably the iRay RH25 which is 4x the price.

 

[CBDR]

OK well its pretty hard to make you a sensible recommendation when you haven't given us an intended use and your criteria are "it could be all three types of thermal system and my budget is whatever I want."

It sounds like you like all the features of the Rattler and you don't want to leap in with both feet, so why not just buy that? The next cheapest thing that can do clip on/dedicated/monocular is probably the iRay RH25 which is 4x the price.

Agree with Conqueror. Do not over think it. If your going to be hunting in the dark how will you be able see when your in transit mood?
Clip on thermal will be my next upgrade to the kit.

 

[alamo5000]

OK well its pretty hard to make you a sensible recommendation when you haven't given us an intended use and your criteria are "it could be all three types of thermal system and my budget is whatever I want."

It sounds like you like all the features of the Rattler and you don't want to leap in with both feet, so why not just buy that? The next cheapest thing that can do clip on/dedicated/monocular is probably the iRay RH25 which is 4x the price.

I didn't want to write a book to start off the thread, but I do have a few ideas rolling around in my head.

For hunting use it would be primarily for pigs. That can happen more than one way. I can basically sit on a deer stand type of stuff, or I can drive a side by side around and basically hunt from that.

Another thing I would use it for is home security. I live in a really rural area with about a 5 acre yard. It would be kind of nice to be able to scan the area if needed.

There are other recreational things that I would use it for as well. I could mount it to a 22 and shoot pests or something if I feel like it.

In my head 95% of the time it will be on an AR of some sort. For example if I want to shoot a coyote with a setup like that Rattler has I can clip it to my existing scope for my 6ARC.

At other times I might use it to simply track down a lost dog or find somebody's cows when they get loose. Every now and then someone's cows wander up in my yard in the middle of the night, or even worse they get out in the road.

The Rattler is a candidate if for nothing else it is able to work in numerous configurations and on different rifles. Everything from shooting racoons at night with a 22 on to hunting pigs with a 300Blackout it can seemingly do it. Basically it could fit on almost every rifle I own in one way or another.

The ability to scan the area at night is very attractive to me for sure. Not that long ago an inmate escaped and broke in and killed a family including young children near me. That was maybe 40 miles away from me but it definitely got me thinking about it more.

The Rattler checks lots of boxes for how I plan to use something like that but I don't know if that's my only option or if there are competitors out there with similar products.

If I start turning into some hardcore pig hunter I will probably get a rig setup for just that, but for this one I was hoping for something that I can use in diverse ways.

Anyway that is my general thought process so far but I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. Other than that I just don't know what all my options are.

 

[alamo5000]

Agree with Conqueror. Do not over think it. If your going to be hunting in the dark how will you be able see when your in transit mood?
Clip on thermal will be my next upgrade to the kit.

It will probably depend on what I am hunting for. 95% of the time I won't have any issues just carrying a flashlight to get to where I am going. Or I can drive a side by side.

As I dabble in it a bit I will probably discover other things that I would like to have as well.

The whole thing is a learning experience for me.

 

[nn8734]

It will probably depend on what I am hunting for. 95% of the time I won't have any issues just carrying a flashlight to get to where I am going. Or I can drive a side by side.

As I dabble in it a bit I will probably discover other things that I would like to have as well.

The whole thing is a learning experience for me.

If you haven’t already done so, check out the Steiner C35 or S35 series. IIRC, they are close to 3k with rebates and/or discount codes from DRT, Hebrew Hammer or SOK.

Has a 640 sensor (sensor is chinese which may or may not be a deal killer for you) but the units are assembled in Germany, if that makes any difference. I had one for a while and it was solid unit for the price and worked well as a hand held and clip on.

Horta did a review on them.

If money no object, FWS-S.

 

[alamo5000]

Another thing I want to reiterate is that I really don't mind supplementing whatever Christmas money comes my way. If they can collectively spend $1000 I don't mind matching it or more, but that said I don't know enough to discern a $3000 thermal from a $1500 one.

Basically I don't know what that extra cost gets me.

 

[smoooth1]

Look at the Bering Optics Super Hogster. @kirsch has done a ton of videos with the Super Hogster, many are posted here.

Have personally used this model a number of times myself and have been very happy with image quality and performance.

At roughly $3K it seems to check most of the boxes on your list of uses and wants, but cannot be used with a regular scope, it is a stand alone thermal.

Best of luck!!

 

[Conqueror]

The list of thermals that can be used in handheld, clip-on, and dedicated modes is very short. They have to have 1.0x base mag and be recoil-hardened. The ones I can think of are the Rattler (1500ish), the RH25 (6k), the Voodoo-S (16k), a used SkeetIR-L (5kish), or a used SkeetIR-X (13kish). Unless OP wants to jump up to an RH25 it’s pretty clear to me he should just grab a Rattler and use it for a while to see if he wants to jump fully into this expensive game.

 

[alamo5000]

The list of thermals that can be used in handheld, clip-on, and dedicated modes is very short. They have to have 1.0x base mag and be recoil-hardened. The ones I can think of are the Rattler (1500ish), the RH25 (6k), the Voodoo-S (16k), a used SkeetIR-L (5kish), or a used SkeetIR-X (13kish). Unless OP wants to jump up to an RH25 it’s pretty clear to me he should just grab a Rattler and use it for a while to see if he wants to jump fully into this expensive game.

Thanks! I would potentially be willing to negotiate the 'clip on' part but this is the type of information I am looking for.

 

[stefan73]

If you was a dedicated thermal optic that can be helmet mounted there is always the NVision NOX18 which is a really nice little thermal. They also make the NOX35.

Berring Optics has their Hogster line which is actually really nice, they make clipons and have dedicated scopes.

For a clipon the Steiner C35 is hard to beat for the cost! It does come with a weight penalty but it has a lot of nice features.

If you want to get into the really spendy stuff there is the Eotech clipons and the Pixels on Target Voodoo.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

It would be our pleasure to discuss different options and opportunities with you. You can always request Camera Land Gift Cards from folks and put those towards your final choice.

 

[alamo5000]

Here is a follow on question for those of you that already own thermal optics.

Roughly how far can you shoot, or identify a target with your given optic?

Also how will this answer be impacted by various levels of thermal scopes?

Some of the videos I have been watching allude to the idea that "relatively cheaper" thermals have a different (or less useable) range.

I don't see myself taking shots past 300 yards ever (in that role) and probably realistically 200 would be ok. That being said in some of the various literature it says the optics can detect out to say 1,000 meters or whatever. Not that I plan to shoot that far in the dark but I'm just wondering why the disconnect between published "detection ranges" and what several of the videos allude to in the way of shot distance limitations.

What comes to mind is it depends on what the target actually is. For example a raccoon is substantially smaller than say a full grown hog so at 300 or 400 yards that raccoon might just show up as a hot blob vs a pig that still might show some more detail at the same distance.

Does that sound even remotely close to reality or am I way off base?

 

[Conqueror]

“Detection range” is BS. There’s no standardized way to measure it so companies sorta say whatever they want. It’s also not really useful to know that a system can detect, say, a microscopic one-pixel heat source from 2000 yards away. In the civilian world thats pretty meaningless.

What matters is PID, the ability to actually distinguish, say, a coyote from the neighbor’s German shepherd, or a raccoon from someone’s outdoor cat. That is going to depend heavily on a lot of variables - the size of the target, what other animals are in that area, the ambient conditions, and yes, the quality of the sensor, lens, base magnification, and processing software on the thermal system.

 

[alamo5000]

“Detection range” is BS. There’s no standardized way to measure it so companies sorta say whatever they want. It’s also not really useful to know that a system can detect, say, a microscopic one-pixel heat source from 2000 yards away. In the civilian world thats pretty meaningless.

What matters is PID, the ability to actually distinguish, say, a coyote from the neighbor’s German shepherd, or a raccoon from someone’s outdoor cat. That is going to depend heavily on a lot of variables - the size of the target, what other animals are in that area, the ambient conditions, and yes, the quality of the sensor, lens, base magnification, and processing software on the thermal system.

For me and normally where I'm at if I can discern that a human within a few hundred yards that would be great. Basically people are not supposed to be there at all so anyone else is a potential target.

I'm figuring out that in this game that detection and identification are two entirely different subjects.

Before I buy anything though it might be worth it to try to get hands on with a few units before I start forking out money.

 

[CBDR]

Very good idea.
Now your moving in the right direction.
Watch the chatter shift from active to passive.
Trust your gut.

 

[Kadams1563]

I’m looking at the Pulsar Talion as I am too looking at getting into the “budget” thermal game for pigs and such.

One thing I have also looked at the Steiner C35. It’s almost double the price but how much better is it? How much further could you PID targets?

 

[kirsch]

I’m looking at the Pulsar Talion as I am too looking at getting into the “budget” thermal game for pigs and such.

One thing I have also looked at the Steiner C35. It’s almost double the price but how much better is it? How much further could you PID targets?

The Talion is a good entry level scope as long as you don't need it in a dual role for scanning/shooting. Due to it's traditional glass-scope design it works on ARs and bolt action guns. It has a lot of features for an entry-level scope. I have put links to a review and to the actual product below.

Pulsar Talion XQ38 Review

Pulsar Talion XQ38

 

[kirsch]

Thanks! I would potentially be willing to negotiate the 'clip on' part but this is the type of information I am looking for.

Alamo,

There is probably more than an hours worth of information to cover that is probably much better suited for a phone conversation. I am a Product Specialist with Night Goggles. One of my roles is testing thermal equipment and also helping people on forums. The worry about buying the lowest possible priced option is typically buying something that you will regret later. On top of the low-end budget, you are talking about getting a device that can do a little bit of everything. You sacrifice a lot by trying to cover every possible option with one device.

 

[BurtG]

It’s also not really useful to know that a system can detect, say, a microscopic one-pixel heat source from 2000 yards away. In the civilian world thats pretty meaningless.

I disagree. Knowing something hot is out there is useful. Get closer and ID it

 

[alamo5000]

I disagree. Knowing something hot is out there is useful. Get closer and ID it

I'm not in a position to agree with either of you

That all said this presents an opportunity for me to test my understanding. Hopefully if anyone that has a bunch of thermal experience can let me know if I am on the correct trail or not. At very least when I go get some hands on experience I won't be walking in cold.

I think the first limitation is the actual zoom power of the optic. If I had a 1-6x regular daytime scope on an AR15, really how far would be practical to take shots on a not yet identified target? Yeah if you are shooting steel and you KNOW that's a steel target then you can go 800 yards or farther. But to really identify something? It's going to be substantially closer. Not to mention the ethics of trying to shoot a large animal with a small cartridge (like 223) at distances beyond 300++ yards is questionable regardless of day or night.

I would say the same principle is probably true with a thermal. Yes, you can probably see a little blob out there 1,000 yards away but the same thing applies: If you had a daytime scope with a max 6x power, could you tell the difference between the neighbor's dog and a coyote?

With a thermal it's even got another layer on top of that, being that the image is digitally created. The resolution of that created image gets better the closer you are and it improves the higher up the technology food chain you go.

As others have alluded to, I'm sure environmental factors also play a major part. If it's really foggy for example the results will be different than if it's clear.

For some applications I am with you though. If I am trying to detect someone approaching from far away, a four pixel blob is better than no pixels at all. That being said telling if that dot is a person or not, much less WHO it is, is a substantially different question from just 'someone is out there'.

Especially at night though I doubt I would be shooting past 200 to 250 yards anyway. Like I said, realistically 300 at the most. Just the sheer fact of the terrain of where I am at would limit daytime shots to that same range 90% of the time. Are there exceptions? Yes, but if an animal is walking through knee to waist deep grass 300 yards away realistically how can you tell if it's a dog or a pig? Even in the daytime that would be difficult because of visual obstacles.

 

[Conqueror]

I disagree. Knowing something hot is out there is useful. Get closer and ID it

I ain’t walking two klicks to find out if something is a skunk or a possum lol. I’d rather have a higher-end thermal that allows me to PID out to as far as I wanna stalk for my type of night shooting.

 

[Rerun7]

Something else to think about. At night if you don’t have a weapon mounted range finder you are going to be guessing at range, with a digital optic which makes it a crap shoot at longer ranges.

I was like you and was thinking about shooting 200ish yds at night when I first got into thermal. Reality is that most of my shots are 50yds and in even on coyotes. Pigs you can walk within 20yds of them at night.

I still use a pulsar trail xq38 and easily can identify the difference in pigs, deer, cows, coyote out to 500yds 95% of the time. Most of the time you can tell by their movement. It gets tricky at longer distances if they are stationary or bedded down.

Better thermal is better but don’t count out what you can do with a decent entry level device.

 

[carbonbased]

As a noob thinking of dipping my toe into this world as well, I spent an hour on the phone with the Thermal Optics Plus dude. Since I’m trying to avoid China stuff, the discussion vectored towards Pulsar, specifically the Talion. They also make one with an integrated LRF, the Themion 2 LRF.

Just noticed a new one on their site called the Thermion DUO DXP50. Hmmmmm.

I was angling towards a clip on as well until I read about having to stretch your arm waaay out there to focus it. I think a dedicated thermal rifle with a handheld scanner is the way I will eventually go.

I like Thermal Optics Plus. RRS chose him as one of very few distributors of their tripod stuff, if that means anything to you.

Given your specs, I think for you to do it right it’s gonna cost you a lot a dough.

I might be able to save significant coin due to not maybe needing a LRF because I’d be operating in known distance areas shooting small vermin at sub-50 yds. And since I’m not moving about in the night I won’t need a scanner, but it would be nice not to accidentally point my rifle at a person.

 

[BurtG]

I ain’t walking two klicks to find out if something is a skunk or a possum lol. I’d rather have a higher-end thermal that allows me to PID out to as far as I wanna stalk for my type of night shooting.

Drone is cheapest then lol

 

[Rerun7]

It’s never ending but I will say that I’d rather have a $3k sight and $3k scanner instead of $6k multi-role device.

I’ve tried hot swapping at night and that’s no fun. Also no fun to constantly have to hold your rifle up to scan. Many people do it but they aren’t having as much fun.

 

[Rerun7]

I ain’t walking two klicks to find out if something is a skunk or a possum lol. I’d rather have a higher-end thermal that allows me to PID out to as far as I wanna stalk for my type of night

Do people really go out and hunt skunks and opossums?

 

[mheimer_45]

Another vote for the super hogster. Ran it one night and realized I needed a stand alone scanner. Just happened to pick up a hogster r-25 off here. Same platform. Same button controls. Just not as clear farther out, but I can see and Id an animal at 200-300 with the R-25

 

[jstokes1]

Clip ons in your price range is a definitive no go. If you want a clip on thats actually good, you'll spend about 5k on a Super Yoter C...and that's about it. If you search for used units, you might find one for around 3k. This, or the C35..again, if you can find one.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

I guess I have a lengthy experience with thermals for your said intentions. I will tell you this. Being able to ID with any thermal takes a great sensor/core/lens. The 100yd raccoon, cat, possum will be challenging with a $1500 320/384 type unit. If you do this enough and hunt enough you will quickly see the need. I can likely assure you many of animal has paid the price of misidentified. Even with tier one thermals it can happen. Knowing mannerisms, movement, gate etc all help in ID when condtions don’t support it and that comes with experience.

If you have the funds and want into the fray then buy a good US made bae core unit of some type and live a happy life

 

[brazz04]

Maybe I’m crazy but I have had an AGM rattler TS25-256 for about three weeks now and I think it totally fits what you want. It’s the perfect entry level thermal. Plus if you decide to upgrade in the future this one is the perfect buddy scope or just a handheld scouting scope. I can detect deer at about 400 yards and would probably be comfortable on a coyote at about 150 yards.

I bought mine at Feral Texas Outdoors as they are local to me and their videos online are pretty great for seeing what each scope truly looks like at different ranges. Of course I bought mine earlier and now they are all on sale for Black Friday ($1,100) but what can you do.

Here’s a deer at 125 yards with the donkeys at 30 yards. Just gives a good reference of up close and further out. The video always looks better than the stills.