Bluntly, is the filmless worth the extra cash? Figured i'm going to be right there at it might as well buy once cry once. Plan is TNVC regardless. Either the PVS-14 Omni VIII thin filmed or the L3 filmless.
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Night Vision Thin filmed vs Filmless white phosphorous.
- Thread starter 5RWill
- Start date
Honestly that is hard to say as it is somewhat more of a personal preference. I know the bad part about it is that most of the time you cant compare them side by side. I was lucky enough to get behind many units and I didnt like the brightness of the L3 tubes. I also found them to be very white and not offer the contrast that I was used to in green tubes.
I ended up with Harris WP tubes and am happy with that decision because I knew what I was getting. Best advice would be to get behind them if possible before you buy.
I ended up with Harris WP tubes and am happy with that decision because I knew what I was getting. Best advice would be to get behind them if possible before you buy.
L3 filmless WP with good specs is better than thin filmed green phosphor. If you can afford it I recommend to buy it. I’ve used many ITT thin filmed green with specs 64 res and snr between 25-31 for years. Just this year I decided to try L3 filmless WP but only if I got high specs, which I did (72 res 34 snr). I still have ITT tubes, in fact, aviator grade 10160s in an anvis 9 with very clean screen cosmetics. They are excellent tubes but still not as good. I’ve personally never seen thin filmed with specs as high as the L3 filmless posted anywhere.
The L3’s are better than every thin filmed green tube I’ve ever had in all conditions. It’s only on the darkest of nights where the performance is close to the same. I’m no L3 schill, just telling the truth from my experience.
The L3’s are better than every thin filmed green tube I’ve ever had in all conditions. It’s only on the darkest of nights where the performance is close to the same. I’m no L3 schill, just telling the truth from my experience.
It depends.
If the "other guy" is running filmed stuff with illumination, then you would be better off running unfilmed and no illumination.
If the "other guy" is running filmed stuff with illumination, then you would be better off running unfilmed and no illumination.
I plan on going WP regardless but I’m wondering if filmless WP is worth it over thin filmed WP?
I looked through my buddies Harris pinnacle green this past weekend. Definitely think at least by looking at pics I’d like WP more. Just seems the contrast is better.
It’s roughly a 500-700 difference between the tnvc units.
Here are the two in question.
TNV/PVS-14 L3Harris Gen3 Thin-Filmed White Phosphor MIL-SPEC
NOTE: Due to the high demand and our high spec standards for WP tubes and system QA/QC, current lead times approximately 16-20 weeks on new orders. Gen3 Thin-Filmed White Phosphor Night Vision Monocular Recommended Accessories: Wilcox L4 G11 Mount - BUY HERE TNVC TM14 Mk3 PVS-14 Weapon...
tnvc.com
TNV/PVS-14 L3Harris Gen3 UN-FILMED White Phosphor MIL-SPEC
Gen3 Auto-gated Night Vision Monocular Recommended Accessories: Wilcox L4 G11 Mount - BUY HERE TNVC TM14 Mk3 PVS-14 Weapon Mount - BUY HERE NOTE: Due to the high demand and our high spec standards for Un-Filmed WP tubes and system QA/QC, current lead times approximately 4-6 weeks on new orders.
tnvc.com
@5RWill
I’d go filmless if the specs will be higher than than the filmed. Also, the white phosphor color looks different between filmed & non. The filmed is a little darker from what I can tell. Even with the same or similar specs the filmless should be better. I say “should” because I haven’t compared a thin filmed WP.
There’s nothing wrong with thin filmed at all, it’s awesome, but my experience is filmless is better if the extra $ is worth it to you.
I’d go filmless if the specs will be higher than than the filmed. Also, the white phosphor color looks different between filmed & non. The filmed is a little darker from what I can tell. Even with the same or similar specs the filmless should be better. I say “should” because I haven’t compared a thin filmed WP.
There’s nothing wrong with thin filmed at all, it’s awesome, but my experience is filmless is better if the extra $ is worth it to you.
I'm back and forth really. Having not seen either i can't really qualify the if the difference is worth it. Going to have sell some stuff to fund this monocular but i'm pretty committed after seeing my buddies pvs-14. Also kicking myself for owning $3000 optics but having not paid more attention to doing this for hogs and coyotes.
What has me coming back to the thin filmed is the extra cash could go towards a helmet/mount and/or a DBAL A3
If it comes down to having one -14 only vs one -14 with a LAM, I’d choose the -14 and LAM.
If you’re using it mainly for hunting,
honestly you might want to consider a thermal depending on where you hunt. You can find good used ones in that range or new 320 or 384 cores. They compliment each other. so you can add either down the road. Navigate or spot for eye shine with the -14 then go to thermal, or spot with thermal and go to -14 and LAM.
Gotcha i could technically do both it will just take longer. But saving $500 to put towards a helmet and quality mount is a pretty good chunk of change.
Thermal was the original plan but contrary to what IR defense set out to do it's only gone up in price. Before they sold to trijicon and came out with the MKII and MKIII there was supposed to be a 320x240 hunting variant that was more economically priced. Never saw it. WASP was supposed to come to fruition too, never saw it. One glance at the REAP-IR's rise to $8000 kind of substantiates just that. Ideally i agree a NV monocular and a thermal clip on or dedicated would be the way to go. But
I'm mainly just looking at hunting. Helmet might be worth it though i will be driving some. Definitely don't need a daytime laser. Ty for the recommendation on the nightcap and rhino II mount i'll look into it.
Hi 5RWill, if your budget allows, you will never be disappointed with the fillmless L3 tubes. In complete darkness, you'll get approx. a 20% increase in performance. Now if most of your NV work is in an urban setting or you plan on using IR lum much of the time, save a few pennies for accessories and maybe some training, and get the thin filmed.
As for color, some say as you just experienced the white has more contrast, many of the Mil folks who spend hours each night behind NODS say the white is more relaxing to their eyes. The sniper types especially in the LE circles as well.
Hope this helps and some great suggestions on this thread as well. PM if you need anytjhing, and thank you.
As for color, some say as you just experienced the white has more contrast, many of the Mil folks who spend hours each night behind NODS say the white is more relaxing to their eyes. The sniper types especially in the LE circles as well.
Hope this helps and some great suggestions on this thread as well. PM if you need anytjhing, and thank you.
After spending time behind unfilmed WP and owning filmed WP as Will suggested there is a slight color or hue difference. Unfilmed is definitely whiter. Its my understanding that in most cases specs will always appear to be slightly higher in unfilmed because the measurable data doesn't have to pass through the thin film barrier all things being equal.
Your about to spend a lot of money, save till you can get it right vs trying to save a few bucks. Everything NV is just expensive unfortunately.
Your about to spend a lot of money, save till you can get it right vs trying to save a few bucks. Everything NV is just expensive unfortunately.
I'd get the filmless WP tube. Wish I had one.
For filmed, I don't think you can beat the Omni7 ITT hand select units, if you can even still get those. They had the thinnest film (like one atom wide?) and best image out of the filmed tubes. They were also completely made in ITT's clean room, which was unique. It's what I have and it's damn hard to beat for a green unit.
But today? I'd call Vic up at TNVC and get that L3 WP filmless tube in a heartbeat. I would mention you should probably get a hand select tube whatever you go with though, I was able to get the specs on mine like I wanted with S/N maxed out along with good resolution.
But really the biggest thing that filmless offers I think is that it can handle recoil and shock better than filmed units can. I know mine is rated to be mounted to a 5.56 but that's it. If you're not mounting to a rifle, film or no film isn't AS big of a deal, not as big of a deal as green vs. WP for instance (which is personal but I've yet to meet someone preferring green over WP for their only unit).
For filmed, I don't think you can beat the Omni7 ITT hand select units, if you can even still get those. They had the thinnest film (like one atom wide?) and best image out of the filmed tubes. They were also completely made in ITT's clean room, which was unique. It's what I have and it's damn hard to beat for a green unit.
But today? I'd call Vic up at TNVC and get that L3 WP filmless tube in a heartbeat. I would mention you should probably get a hand select tube whatever you go with though, I was able to get the specs on mine like I wanted with S/N maxed out along with good resolution.
But really the biggest thing that filmless offers I think is that it can handle recoil and shock better than filmed units can. I know mine is rated to be mounted to a 5.56 but that's it. If you're not mounting to a rifle, film or no film isn't AS big of a deal, not as big of a deal as green vs. WP for instance (which is personal but I've yet to meet someone preferring green over WP for their only unit).
I've got to sell some stuff first unfortunately but i'm trying to fast track it as soon as possible. I plan to hunt a lot during my break this Christmas and want to be out there thinning hogs and coyotes. Especially the later as they've absolutely decimated our rabbit population. So much that i might be putting a ZP5 up to help with it. $500ish isn't that much in the grand scheme of things so i think i'll just go Filmless. I had a feeling i was going to lean in that direction anyway.
No plans to mount it on a rifle, albeit the rifle i plan to use is running the EXPS 3-4. I'm just kind of, of the mindset that NV nods are for IR laser/observation and clip ons be it NV/Thermal are for shooting. I guess it could be done. This is all new to me as far as hunting at night with NV. Something i've wanted to do for years. I'm assuming given the wind direction i should be able to get relatively close to the intended game. Learning to shoot with the IR might provide some interesting challenges as well.
No plans to mount it on a rifle, albeit the rifle i plan to use is running the EXPS 3-4. I'm just kind of, of the mindset that NV nods are for IR laser/observation and clip ons be it NV/Thermal are for shooting. I guess it could be done. This is all new to me as far as hunting at night with NV. Something i've wanted to do for years. I'm assuming given the wind direction i should be able to get relatively close to the intended game. Learning to shoot with the IR might provide some interesting challenges as well.
So Hogs are hitting our rice currently. I went home last weekend dad and I went out there and got one. Though i couldn't really see him more or less sprayed where i saw movement and heard squealing. Buddy of mine is going to let me borrow a IR Defense MKII and he's talking about writing the thermal off on the farm at the end of the year. It's getting worse every year. Originally he bought those propane cannons for blackbirds, which worked, but they got used it. Might have him on board, i'm curious would i have been able to see the hog 10-15yds into the rice chest high with thermal?
I'm still on board with the monocular which is about to be moving faster than i thought. Another sale or so and i'm ordering.
I'm still on board with the monocular which is about to be moving faster than i thought. Another sale or so and i'm ordering.
I've had an L3 Unfilmed WP tube and I pefer Green over WP. I feel like it's slightly easier for my eyes to pick things up with the green phosphor but then I was blessed with very acute vision which I think is why my eyes don't get fatigued on long stints behind the green phosphor whereas other people's do. So when I bought my 14 a few years ago I went with a green tube which I got good specs on;
S/N 33.9, PC 2543, RES 72, Halo 0.8, EBI 1.3, Gain 69,600 and I'm very happy with it.
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5RWill,
If any tiny little part of the hog would have been visible to you in daylight then yes, thermal would have seen him. If not, no. Thermal doesn’t see “through” anything.
All it takes is a little bit of the animal exposed to show the heat.
My Reap-ir will pick up a half exposed mouse at 90 yards.
If any tiny little part of the hog would have been visible to you in daylight then yes, thermal would have seen him. If not, no. Thermal doesn’t see “through” anything.
All it takes is a little bit of the animal exposed to show the heat.
My Reap-ir will pick up a half exposed mouse at 90 yards.
I always wanted a reap IR for one of the AR setups but man they never went down in price. Actually when i checked with Trijicon i was pretty surprised at how expensive thermal has gotten. I know it’s continually gotten better with new cores and higher res but we went from like $3500-$6000-$8000 at least in regards to IR defense. I’m hoping we can just write if off. My brother and i would have a blast hunting in the winter.
That’s a filmless green tube? One of these days I want to get my hands on a high spec filmless green.
So rethinking i might have come to a cross roads. Truthfully i still want a PVS-14, i'd rather have the capability of driving and seeing with the eye/head than a scope that i have to shoulder everytime i want to look for something. But looking at a couple of threads the FLIR thermosight pro series is adequately priced and seems to well worth the money, the PTS 233 is $1900ish skimming various sites right now. I'm trying to get dad to write it off (i know) but enough rice goes down in the next week and i bet he'll be taking a hard look at it or just jumping the gun and spending 5k on a good trap. As i said i still want the monocular, granted having both would be ideal, though admittedly i'd prefer a clip on or think i would given the choice.
I saw someone recommend against clip ons for hog hunting. Any idea as to why? Also bering optics has the hogster which NightGoggles caries and supposedly FLIR is coming out with a thermosight C clip on.
So thoughts? Originally when thermal was mentioned both by a friend of mine and in this thread i was just thinking there is no way to feasibly drop 8k on an IR Defense/Trijicon, least not while in Dental School i just don't have the funds or items to sell to generate that kind of cash. That is truthfully is what i've always wanted as far as sights were concerned. Obviously the tradeoffs are likely that thermal is more effective for the intended purpose. But i plan on having both, it's just i think i'd prefer the monocular first.
I saw someone recommend against clip ons for hog hunting. Any idea as to why? Also bering optics has the hogster which NightGoggles caries and supposedly FLIR is coming out with a thermosight C clip on.
So thoughts? Originally when thermal was mentioned both by a friend of mine and in this thread i was just thinking there is no way to feasibly drop 8k on an IR Defense/Trijicon, least not while in Dental School i just don't have the funds or items to sell to generate that kind of cash. That is truthfully is what i've always wanted as far as sights were concerned. Obviously the tradeoffs are likely that thermal is more effective for the intended purpose. But i plan on having both, it's just i think i'd prefer the monocular first.
Depending on how your land looks going straight thermal may be the option. There is always the option of running both NVGs and thermal, but thats certainly going to be cost prohibitive. In regards to your original question with filmless vs thin filmed I would agree with what the experts from TNVC mentioned above. I am behind NOD's a good portion of my life and have had the opportunity to compare thin filmed and filminess side by side on multiple occasions. The thin filmed can be quite impressive when you get behind them but they are definitely a little darker and more blue looking than filmless. The only thing I would remind you is those nights where there's zero lum, the filmless will definitely benefit you.
Some Mil guys who sit on NODS for hours on end (longer than I will ever use them) say it's more pleasing to their eyes for long periods with less eye strain. Some say they can see a bit better contrast and in the shadows better. I for one do not see any better in these aspects (never have) with the color alone, but in extremely dark conditions, it's the filmless technology that is the largest improvement over standard film NOT the color. Hope this helps.
I don't have any experience with dual nods or helmet mounted units but I found a company called Core Vision Industries (via instagram) that rents out NVs. Might be worth a shot to see if you can rent what you are looking for before buying.
I know this is slightly late but I didn't want to start a new post to ask about another angle to this question when it's relevant here too. Does anyone know about the durability and lifespan differences? Back when I was active and using these we had heard of the new filmless and how they showed a decent improvement but there was an issue with unstable power problems causing unreliability and issues with filtration and short life due to some burnout issues. Also there was something about not being rated or tested for use on weapon platforms and there was issues with things as light as 223. This was 10 years+ so anyone have any new info on these topics, even general hour lifetime comparison.
I don't need a pair except for hunting nowadays and wasn't really going to consider the L3 filmless WP but I just found an offer for a new unit with a large blem in zone 3 that includes j-arm, rino mount and some sacraficial lenses for 3200. So now I am just curious about the life of the unit since I can handle a blem in zone 3 for that price without the extras.
I don't need a pair except for hunting nowadays and wasn't really going to consider the L3 filmless WP but I just found an offer for a new unit with a large blem in zone 3 that includes j-arm, rino mount and some sacraficial lenses for 3200. So now I am just curious about the life of the unit since I can handle a blem in zone 3 for that price without the extras.
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The way it was explained to me when buying my nods was what environment will you be in most? If you’re going to be in pitch black caves and need every bit of light amplification possible, then go filmless. Otherwise go with thin filmed. My thin filmed L3 WP is the beez knees. Looking through my buddies stuff is like eating sour candy lol.
The durability issues with filmless were years back (15-20or so IIRC). They have since improved the durability and filmless lasts as long as thin filmed. L3Harris performs the same mil-spec failure tests on filmless and thin filmed and they all have to meet the same 7500-10,000 hours before serious degradation.
If you hear otherwise, the people still spreading this info are one of 2 things in my experience: 1) uninformed or 2) pushing thin filmed tubes
Thanks, yeah I haven't heard anything about them since I haven't been in the game since 2008, but at that time those were still the reasons why we weren't using them so we were told. Just wanted to clarify since I didn't seen a whole lot of info on the durability when doing a quick glance online, and if I had to guess it's because it's been a non-issue for so long that it's not even questioned anymore so thank you again.
On a personal note, does a large zone 3 blem kit like I described seem like a deal? I am finding new intensifiers for 3200+ let alone the housing and attachment devices but this is the first new blemished intensifier I've found that happens to come in a pvs-14 and 10 year warranty. But again been out of the game and cant find others to compare it to.
Im in the market for a new WP tube currently and have been poring over the information on here and arfcom. Was originally thinking of buy once cry once binos, but am thinking of waiting a bit to see new products being offered in the near future.
Cant say I looked into blemished tubes, but from my research most of the large online vendors are similar in pricing for unblemished ones (PVS-14):
-Top of the line WP L3 Filmless 20UM around $4000-4400 (min 2000FOM)
-Top of the line (HP+, hand select, w.e. they call it) ITT thin-filmed WP 3200-3600 (min 1800 FOM)
then from after these you have the Photonis echos at about a grand less than that. Also some variation in L3 thin-filmed in there. But in the upper tier area thats what you have fro what I surmised.
Now for me the questions are who I want to purchase one from an how quickly I can get it to my door step (pretty much set on film-less)
If wat I gathered isnt squared away let me know, the more knowledge the merrier.
Cant say I looked into blemished tubes, but from my research most of the large online vendors are similar in pricing for unblemished ones (PVS-14):
-Top of the line WP L3 Filmless 20UM around $4000-4400 (min 2000FOM)
-Top of the line (HP+, hand select, w.e. they call it) ITT thin-filmed WP 3200-3600 (min 1800 FOM)
then from after these you have the Photonis echos at about a grand less than that. Also some variation in L3 thin-filmed in there. But in the upper tier area thats what you have fro what I surmised.
Now for me the questions are who I want to purchase one from an how quickly I can get it to my door step (pretty much set on film-less)
If wat I gathered isnt squared away let me know, the more knowledge the merrier.
With as many filmless tubes that have been sold to the public, if it were an issue people would be talking about it. By people I mean end users.
The high spec filmless WP zone 3 blems are a great deal. I have two of them. I would only do it as long as the tubes have good specs. Elbit has been pumping out some thin filmed WP with very high specs recently. I’d take a very high spec Elbit WP over a low spec filmless WP if the prices are close to the same.
I just purchased a thin film monocular like this from TNVC, with a lifetime warranty, for ~$3500 that is virtually blemish free.
tnvc.com
TNV/PVS-14 L3Harris Gen3 Thin-Filmed White Phosphor MIL-SPEC
NOTE: Due to the high demand and our high spec standards for WP tubes and system QA/QC, current lead times approximately 16-20 weeks on new orders. Gen3 Thin-Filmed White Phosphor Night Vision Monocular Recommended Accessories: Wilcox L4 G11 Mount - BUY HERE TNVC TM14 Mk3 PVS-14 Weapon...
tnvc.com
Thank you for your business Sir, greatly appreciated! Do not hesitate to PM here. email, call, etc on any questions you may have. Our customer support goes well byond the initial sale. We train with all this gear for a living and constantly learning and evolving.I just purchased a thin film monocular like this from TNVC, with a lifetime warranty, for ~$3500 that is virtually blemish free.
TNV/PVS-14 L3Harris Gen3 Thin-Filmed White Phosphor MIL-SPEC
NOTE: Due to the high demand and our high spec standards for WP tubes and system QA/QC, current lead times approximately 16-20 weeks on new orders. Gen3 Thin-Filmed White Phosphor Night Vision Monocular Recommended Accessories: Wilcox L4 G11 Mount - BUY HERE TNVC TM14 Mk3 PVS-14 Weapon...
NV isn't like AR15 accessories, you won't have a new housing coming out every 6 months. I personally don't plan on replacing my ANVIS 9 housing unless it breaks. Then I will have the L3 tubes taken out and put in a ANVIS compatible DTNVG or RNVG housing. More likely DTNVG over the RNVG since you get articulation and lighter weight.
I ended up with a Omni VIII from TNVC on black friday. Saved like $1000 on the setup it was too good to pass up.
Even if it breaks I’d just fix it. I cracked my PAS really bad when I first got my -9 but epoxied it together and made my own up armor. I love the -9 as I’m sure you do.
Mainly the lightness and size but it stows perfect IMO. Much better than taller goggles on dovetail mounts and ball detent goggles like the Sentinel/Mod-3.
L3 has been pumping out filmless WP tubes with Omni IX level specs for quite some time now. Now with Elbit pumping out super high spec thin filmed WP, I’d have to say that these tubes are already making their way out.
Not yet. As far as I know Omni IX isn't "official" and last I heard it's supposed to be sometime this year. There will still be plenty of tubes below Omni IX specs like what are in the market now just due to how tubes are made. They can't nail it with every batch. Because the specs are much higher than Omni VIII there should be more fall outs that still have awesome specs, so I wouldn't hold out to get an actual milspec Omni IX tube. Depending on the tube yields there may not be many that will end up with dealers.
Omni IX will surely be much tougher for the mfg's which means there will be a lot more fall outs than Omni VIII, which is great for civilian users. I'll bet this is where these high spec Elbit XLSH tubes are coming from.
Was talking with L3 today in a phone meeting and the Omni IX subject came up. Final specs are still getting finalized but what the future may bring is exciting.
And a bit of FYI, L3 has been producimg FOM 3000+ tubes for several years which are most prevalent in clip-on systems which are really the best bang for these tubes IMHO. Yea I wear a 39.7SN and 81LP but I also havev another in 35ish S/N and 64LP. Unless Im in drastic tree cover cloudy night is the only time I see a tad bit less scintillation with the 39.7. As for rez, i do see the finite rez difference between 64 and 81 but it's not drastic at 1.1x. Now with a clip on, more pronounced in both values at higher magnification with my day scope. Like my telescopes, I'm always trying to use more mags than I should and always fighting the physics Gods. Ha
And a bit of FYI, L3 has been producimg FOM 3000+ tubes for several years which are most prevalent in clip-on systems which are really the best bang for these tubes IMHO. Yea I wear a 39.7SN and 81LP but I also havev another in 35ish S/N and 64LP. Unless Im in drastic tree cover cloudy night is the only time I see a tad bit less scintillation with the 39.7. As for rez, i do see the finite rez difference between 64 and 81 but it's not drastic at 1.1x. Now with a clip on, more pronounced in both values at higher magnification with my day scope. Like my telescopes, I'm always trying to use more mags than I should and always fighting the physics Gods. Ha
Yeah, I’ve actually thought about just doing what you did to ruggedize yours a little more, but I’m pretty careful with my hefty investment. So once I start to not be as dainty with them like egg shells, I’ll probably do it lol
I’m betting you’re right on that last part. Elbit definitely stepped up their game when they took over from Harris.
With what your seeing coming down the pipe and what not what would your recommendation be to new/perspective buyers in say the relatively near future? Would you wait for the latest gen to drop and trickle to the underlings or is the new juice close enough to the old that it won’t justify a price difference?
I think the biggest thing will be more availability of FOM 3000 tubes. We are seeing more of it with Elbit, but remember just because you see few folks talking about their high spec Elbit tubes does NOT mean there are a lot of them in inventory. That is not the case right now. We are a a direct distributor of Elbit as well and the numbers of ultra high specs out of 100 tubes is approx 10% or less.
