Re: Thinking about an FN PS90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The 5.7 has it's place, it is not perfect but if your choice is a 9mm carbine or a 5.7 when doing an entry, I would think you would lean towards something that would penetrate body armor.</div></div>
That's subjective, because most 9mm duty JHPs pass FBI ballistic tests with 12-18" of penetration into bare gelatin, as well as through all of the tested barriers other than soft armor.
In contrast, most 5.7 loads don't. You have to revert to an AP round for that. And a 5.7 may defeat Level IIIA soft armor, but there are numerous trauma inserts that defeat the 5.7 (non-AP).
The 5.7 is NOT ballistically better than a 9mm or any other combat pistol caliber. The only thing it brings to the table is the ability to defeat soft armor. On soft tissue, it's inadequate.
Both pistol and sub-caliber SMGs are sub-optimal, and should be phased out from all LE and SWAT duty. Period.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kodiak61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not one to argue with FBI research, with that said what ammunition were they using for the tests and the bad guys?
I only have experience shooting paper, wood and fruits and veggies with mine.
This is not a pofessunEl test or anything, but using some of the elite ammunition (raptor) it was night and day difference as to the destruction of a watermelon. And this was out of the pistol.
Like many weapons, ammo choice is the key to unlocking the weapons destructive power.
If the FBI and Swat reports are so terrible, what is the Secret Services motive and test support data for carrying them?
Again these are just questions as I dont have the jargoneeze qualifications to back up anything with professional answers.</div></div>
Ammo was non-AP. Beyond that it doesn't really matter since the issue is pretty widely spread. The FBI has done extensive research indicating that the 5.7 and 4.6 are sub-optimal.
Additionally, the top ballistics experts also denounce these rounds as inconsistent and ineffective.
Shooting a watermelon proves nothing for lethality. Watermelons don't mimick soft tissue. Unless you shoot 10% ballistic gelatin, or you shoot a pig, you won't be getting an accurate reflection of ammunition capability.
As stated by a previous poster, the 5.7 is a fast pistol round. Pistol rounds only cause damage by the permanent cavity they create; not by the temporary cavity from initial expansion or yaw. Basically, it's about the diameter of the hole and what organs or tissue that hole goes through. Rifle rounds work differently.
As far as the USSS, keep in mind that they're a highly political agency. They're extremely fearful of overpenetration, and with a 5.7, overpenetration is easily mitigated. They work in very close quarters around groups of people. If a round overpenetrated and hit some senator's mistress, there would be political hell to pay. I highly doubt that the FBI was involved in that decision, and if the USSS contacted the FBI BRF, I'm sure someone at the BRF likely told them it was a bad idea. I would love to be a fly on that wall, but ultimately I wasn't there for the decision and I don't know if the USSS ever contacted the FBI about it. If they did, I'm sure the USSS made up their own mind and heard what they wanted to hear. For them, the P90 is a very compact and concealable gun. They still carry their Sig pistols in .357sig though, so obviously it's not about the round, but more about the size of the weapon that they're after with that regard.
Keep in mind that the USSS still has QRF teams in trucks with ARs and miniguns.
A neighboring agency has P90s on their SWAT team and thinks they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. They extoll how reliable and accurate and easy to shoot they are. The P90 is certainly all of those. However, this agency has never shot someone with a P90, so all they have is range time on paper to tell them how awesome this gun and round are.
For info on 5.7 ballistics, refer to here:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
