Thinking about sticking with .308 vs. 6.5, am I crazy?

[3-0-hate]

Its time for a new barrel on my SPS, that I have in an Eliseo chassis. It has been a hammer in the past for what it is, but the accuracy is beginning to open up a bit and the throat has grown and gotten a bit heat checked. I have been thinking lately that I should just stick with 308 though, since Im so deeply entrenched in 308 already. I dont own a 6.5 yet, and I am actually beginning to shy away from the idea, for now at least for now with this rifle anyways. But let me talk through my reasonings and then if you think Im crazy, please help me out.

I already have a bunch of match brass(Lapua), bullets (155ELD-M) and powder (Varget) and a set of match grade dies for the 308. I have been able to shoot to 1100 though my 20" barrel, without much issue or effort as it it, and my load in the rifles current config is supersonic to around 1120 on a day like today (34.2% humidity @ 50*F). I figure if I go with a 24" barrel, I would likely be able to see a MV around 2900-3000fps vs my current 2763fps, which would keep me supersonic to around 1340. None of the matches or clubs I shoot with shoot beyond 1100, so I really should be OK.

I know that if I stick with the 308, I will be giving up some windage and elevation, but as far as I can tell, not much. If I am already so entrenched in .308, and dont really have/want to spend the money for a new barrel AND all the things that go with a new caliber, is it worth it?

308 155gr ELD-M @ 3000fps MV gives me 8.2mils elevation and 2.3mils windage (10mph @ 90deg) @ 1000yards
6.5 120gr ELD-M @ 3000fps MV gives me 8.0mils elevation and 2.2mils windage (10mph @ 90deg) @ 1000yards

Am I missing something blatantly obvious here?

Thanks for the help.

 

[SporterII]

Having a complete system that works and has you wanting nothing is the holy grail.

 

[Ledzep]

Not sure your weather data, but a .62 bc 6.5mm 140 @2750 is 8.0 mils elevation and 1.7 mils windage out here (4500ft DA), 10mph @ 90°.

At 2800fps it's 7.6 mils elevation, 1.65 wind

 

[3-0-hate]

Not sure your weather data, but a .62 bc 6.5mm 140 @2750 is 8.0 mils elevation and 1.7 mils windage out here (4500ft DA), 10mph @ 90°.

At 2800fps it's 7.6 mils elevation, 1.65 wind

I pulled both off of the applied Ballistics app using my local weather and location data.

Edit. I ran it again and came up with 7.8... idunno.

 

[brianf]

try and think of the end result, especially because your current rig fits your current need well enough.
if you want better ballistics for what reason
if you want better ballistics, how much better
is the recoil causing issues
etc.
once you know the criteria the decision comes easy.
personally if you are all in for 308 and it does its job, unless you are paying your bills by shooting comps i wouldnt change anything

if you start chasing every last but of BC or the hot new round youll never be satisifed. which is fine but then know that is what you are getting in to and future decisions become easy.

 

[dimar1492]

I think there is a little more to it. In your example you picked a pretty efficient way to run the .308. But not so much on the 6.5. I dumped some of these numbers into JBM ballistics real quick.
Sight Height=2.0 inch
Temp=73F Humidity=50%
Pressure=30.0 inGH
Altitude=25ft
Wind=10mph 90deg
This was already on the calculator when I opened it up, so I just went with these parameters.

6.5 120 ELD-M 3000 fps= 8.2mil elevation, 2.4mil windage
6.5 140 Hybrid 2820 fps= 8.0mil elevation, 1.8mil windage
.308 155 ELD-M 3000 fps= 8.6mil elevation, 2.6mil windage

The 155 ELD-M has 44% more wind drift than a 6.5 140 Hybrid in that example.

At the end of the day you are going to get more hits with a 6.5, especially in switchy conditions. Every error due to switching winds, range estimation, environmental inputs changing due to Temp and pressure shifts, etc. Will be greater with a .308. If you are OK with being at a disadvantage then keep plugging along. However if you are the guy that might be frustrated at the end of a match after you dropped points that many others didn't because the wind didn't kick them around as bad, then you may want to reconsider the 6.5

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The 6.5 shooter might consider it less necessary to be so good with wind skills, but they'd probably be wrong. No matter what you're shooting, really good wind skills are necessary beyond 300yd, and especially necessary beyond 600yd.

Less drift does not equate to a free lunch, both shooters had better be doing their best wind-wise, or it's all just a jumble of pretty sounding numbers.

I use the ballistics app to get me onto the paper. After that it's shoot and build the zero as seen through the spotter scope; follow the wind and watch where the other shooters are impacting, then choose your POA.

Shooter, know your rifle and what it does inside out.

I have several guns, but only one for each application, and I need to shoot them all at least occasionally; especially those intended for any upcoming Comps.

At 800ft altitude, my .260/142 come up from 100yd to 1000yd is about 28 MOA. at 6000-ish ft (George Tubb Range, Whittington) it's closer to 22 MOA, and at home, 4200ft, it's about 25MOA to get on paper. Just very rough, but it's ballpark on a huge target face, and the rifle tells me how to go from there. I think it's essential to know such things about my specific rifles. I have both a .260 and a .308 1000yd-capable rifles, and to me, as long as I can see where I'm hitting, I will use them with equal confidence. I have done my 1000yd F Open shooting with the 260 and love it. But for F T/R, it's going to be the .308; rules are rules.

Been awhile for the 1000yd, but I'm still game. I don't win, but I run with the big dogs and we all have fun. For me, winning had danged well better not be everything. But fun, I can take a little fun occasionally.

Shooter, know your rifle and what it does inside out. You are not crazy, but I just might could be. So who actually cares whether or not I'm crazy anymore? I don't. Crazy can be funnnnn....! Bwahahahaha...

Greg

 

[Hawk in WY]

I remember when I bought my first .308. The old guys said I would have been better off with the 30-06.

Now I'm that guy.

The elevation is not the issue if you know your range and ballistics. Dial and shoot with both.

Windage is a bit more forgiving with a 6.5 but inside 500 yards they are the same.

A few reasons to stay .308:

1. You have supplies and know your loads well,

2. Shooting steel you will go from bong to tink.

3. .308 bullets have higher sectional density which makes for much superior terminal ballistics on larger size game if that matters.

4. Where they are different is beyond 1,000 yards on paper where the 6.5 shines, but you don't shoot that far.

5. Newer .308 bullets will beat the 6.5 but require an 8 twist.

You might want to replace your current barrel with a longer and faster twist barrel if you want to take advantage of the newer bullets.

Both good choices but different in many subtle ways.

Good luck

 

[dimar1492]

To the post above, the newer .308 bullets only beat a 6.5 when you can actually push them fast enough to take advantage of the higher B.C.

 

[PBWalsh]

Keep the .308. It obviously works well for you and you know your rifle. Thats wya better than BC chasing. If you do PRS, get a 6/6.5mm wonder cartridge. However, run with what you know and use well.

 

[TimeWillTell]

I remember when I bought my first .308. The old guys said I would have been better off with the 30-06.

Now I'm that guy.

The elevation is not the issue if you know your range and ballistics. Dial and shoot with both.

Windage is a bit more forgiving with a 6.5 but inside 500 yards they are the same.

A few reasons to stay .308:

1. You have supplies and know your loads well,

2. Shooting steel you will go from bong to tink.

3. .308 bullets have higher sectional density which makes for much superior terminal ballistics on larger size game if that matters.

4. Where they are different is beyond 1,000 yards on paper where the 6.5 shines, but you don't shoot that far.

5. Newer .308 bullets will beat the 6.5 but require an 8 twist.

You might want to replace your current barrel with a longer and faster twist barrel if you want to take advantage of the newer bullets.

Both good choices but different in many subtle ways.

Good luck

1. Agreed, one in hand vs two in the bush situation

2. Wrong. At least when talking about typical 308 bullet weights. 6.5 Creedmoor will carry same or more energy as typical 308s. So same basic sound on steel.

3. For typical 308 win bullet weight, wrong. Unless you find a way to shoot a 230 from a 308 without single shot, 6.5 is higher sectional density. (Copper solids like the Warner flatline will buck this but at a high financial cost, but you specifically mentioned hunting so a copper solid isn't good option anyways)

4. Agreed, but with paper AND steel.

5. Copper solids will beat it at a high financial cost as stated above. They also make copper solids for 6.5.

If you were talking a 300 norma or something this would be different but you only have so much ability with a 308 win case.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Choose your poison. I shoot the 143 ELD-X with the .260, and the 178 ELD-X with the .308. I worry less about the Ballistics numbers than I do about the wind flags.

As I said, I can live without winning. I have to. ...And I'm OK with that.

Greg

 

[3-0-hate]

Im not really interested in shooting the heavies except for maybe some fun with subs, so I will likely stick with a 10 or 11 twist. The 155s have been working tremendously well for me and I will likely stick with that weight.

 

[TimeWillTell]

Im not really interested in shooting the heavies except for maybe some fun with subs, so I will likely stick with a 10 or 11 twist. The 155s have been working tremendously well for me and I will likely stick with that weight.

So I'm a huge 6.5 fan and I generally push people that way, and actively away from a 308, for their first rifle. That said, you fit one of my limited exceptions of people I advise to stick with 308: you already have one with the entire setup for it. So keep shooting and enjoy! You can always switch next barrel or have a second barrel spun up in the future.

 

[djarecke]

The 6.5 shooter might consider it less necessary to be so good with wind skills, but they'd probably be wrong. No matter what you're shooting, really good wind skills are necessary beyond 300yd, and especially necessary beyond 600yd.

Less drift does not equate to a free lunch, both shooters had better be doing their best wind-wise, or it's all just a jumble of pretty sounding numbers.

Shooter, know your rifle and what it does inside out.
Greg

I read a lot of "experts" on this site, but what Greg said is magic and the key to shooting past 600 yards. The ballistics apps are great, but you need to know your rifle inside and out. To an even larger extent, you NEED to learn to read subtleties in wind movements at the shooter's position, mid-range, and anywhere that might affect the flight path of the bullet.

The vertical element should be one of the "knowns" in your distance equation. Solving for wind in changing conditions is what separates shooters NEARLY independent of caliber, velocity or bullet.

 

[steve123]

It's the same old story, miss to the left or to the right with 308, a number of those same misses would be hits if shooting a 6.5. 120 grainer isn't a good pick for 6.5 whereas a 155 isn't a bad bullet for 308.

Get a 7.5 twist 6.5 and shoot 147's, 150's with approx .7 BC..... That's about the BC of the 30 cal 215 Berger hybrid.

Wind flags? Must be nice!

 

[Tazman308]

After 4000 rounds through my 308, I just went through the same decision making process. I don’t compete in PRS currently but obviously like to shoot well. I shoot the SMKT 175s and get decent results. I did switch from a 20” barrel to a 24” 1/10 Bartlein. I have 1000 bullets, tons of brass, lots of powder and primers, and Redding Comp. dies. I was torn but decided to stay with the 308. Besides the terminal energy of the 175s was a thought. Spartan is cutting the barrel and I can hardly wait to get it back. Celebrated the upgrade with 100 new Peterson brass.

If I need further and flatter, I’ll shoot the 300 NM.

 

[davsco]

2. Wrong. At least when talking about typical 308 bullet weights. 6.5 Creedmoor will carry same or more energy as typical 308s. So same basic sound on steel.

i went from 308 (fed gm 175) to 6.5 (140 eldm) and hits on steel are def harder to see.

 

[Supersubes]

Yes, you’re crazy, get the 6.5. Like steve 123 said, whatever your abilities are now, you’ll hit more and score higher with the 6.5, always! Yes, people with .308’s beat guys with 6.5’s, but that’s because they’re better shooters. If those shooters moved to a 6.5, they would just stomp that much more ass.


Regarding your numbers, they’re favorable to the .308, and don’t take advantage of the 6.5’s main plus, which is very high bc bullets.

Surprised we still debate these things honestly.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Is 155's at 3k fps out of a 24" a realistic expectation? I don't load 308 so I really am curious but it sounds optimistic.

 

[...]

6.5 is quite possibly the single most overrated cartridge ive ever seen.......its a good cartridge dont get me wrong......but yall act like its fucking gods gift to man.

it offers ballistics SLIGHTLY better than 308....

if you have a good setup with 308, no reason not to stick with it.

if you miss with 308, you are going to miss with 6.5

a missed wind call of 1 or 2 mph is worth more than the ballistic advantage you get from 6.5

 

[shooter65]

308 for the win

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

You're missing more hits at distance. Does that matter to you? I have one rifle with 2 barrels. The 30 cal barrel is for practice. The 6.5mm barrel is for matches.

A 6.5mm is going to be much more forgiving. My 6.5mm load has the same drift at 1200 yards as Federal Gold Medal Match has at 1000 yards. It is also much more forgiving on small targets at closer ranges. It's just flat out easier to shoot well.

That isn't to say .308 Winchester is bad. A shit-hot .308 shooter can beat some good 6mm or 6.5mm shooters that make some mistakes, but on any given day, the 6.5mm shooter of equal skill will have the edge.

Look at the Precision Rifle Series (and I am not saying that PRS is the end-all-be-all) compare tactical class scores to the open class. The open class winner of the Finale shot 40 more targets than the winner of the Tactical class.

Even if you move the match to a range that has a lot of closer targets and is maybe a little more forgiving on wind like CORE, the tactical winner of the Fall Classic was Brandon Zelinski. He still shot 30 targets less than the match winner.

You can even look at the matches before they imposed a speed and bullet weight limit and you'll see the same story. 30-40 less hits in match conditions.

These are both guys that I know for a fact are High Masters in Across the Course shooting, and have no shortage of experience reading wind. Their simply is no replacement for displacement.

 

[Supersubes]

6.5 is quite possibly the single most overrated cartridge ive ever seen.......its a good cartridge dont get me wrong......but yall act like its fucking gods gift to man.

it offers ballistics SLIGHTLY better than 308....

if you have a good setup with 308, no reason not to stick with it.

if you miss with 308, you are going to miss with 6.5

a missed wind call of 1 or 2 mph is worth more than the ballistic advantage you get from 6.5

Uhhhhh, no.

 

[...]

Uhhhhh, no.

uhhhhh, yeah.

 

[TimeWillTell]

i went from 308 (fed gm 175) to 6.5 (140 eldm) and hits on steel are def harder to see.

That may be what you perceived but the numbers don't back that up. They should be essentially equal to 500 or so yard then the 6.5 starts to have a small edge. In reality up to 1000 you should never be able to really tell a difference all things being equal (same plate, same impact position)

 

[Supersubes]

uhhhhh, yeah.

You must be shooting magic bullets in your .308.

 

[...]

You must be shooting magic bullets in your .308.

no i just spend more time shooting it than i do bawking over ballistic charts and .07 improvements in BC

 

[lash]

Keep and shoot your .308. I shoot .260 and love it. Have for years now. Yet .308 is what sucked me into the LR game and I will get a .308 bolt at some point again. There's something about it that just works for me.

Sure, I've been resisting the fast and cheap allure of the hussies that coo "6mm" to me while I'm weak, primarily because I am pragmatic about what I do while shooting and maybe somewhat realistic about my desire to have more multiple calibers to deal with. not everything is about "PRS" style matches, even though I enjoy them. Somethings it's just about enjoying the shooting and .308 is a refined cartridge.

My advice, for what it's worth? Keep and re-barrel your .308. Save up for a different option as another rifle. That way, you get to choose and enjoy either one. In the meantime, if you absolutely MUST have more distance/performance from you .308, look at 160g Flatlines.

 

[Notdylan]

That may be what you perceived but the numbers don't back that up. They should be essentially equal to 500 or so yard then the 6.5 starts to have a small edge. In reality up to 1000 you should never be able to really tell a difference all things being equal (same plate, same impact position)

It's not just energy but also the actual amount of lead going splat on the steel.

 

[Supersubes]

no i just spend more time shooting it than i do bawking over ballistic charts and .07 improvements in BC

Don’t know what bullets youre comparing. The 140 eld (what the OP should be comparing) has a bc that’s 29% better than the 155 eld. That’s giant! That 29% bump can be had with 20% less recoil. People arent choosing the 6.5 in droves all because of hype. You said the 6.5 is “slightly” better? Sorry man, that’s just ridiculous.

 

[TimeWillTell]

It's not just energy but also the actual amount of lead going splat on the steel.

The equation for energy takes into account the mass of the projectile.

If you talking about being able to see the material bounce off the steel plate then yes there's more absolute material. But that's "splash" off the steel target pretty hard thing to see at 1000 if you ask me.

 

[lash]

How much spotting have you done at matches? Not much I'd guess. .308 does absolutely make more splash on steel at 1000 than 6.5. I've spotted thousands of rounds at matches and find it easier to spot .308 impacts than 6.5. Like it or not. Will he statistically make more impacts with 6.5? Likely so.

I swear. Your insistence that he move to 6.5 borders on fanaticism. And I like 6.5 calibers. It's what I shoot, but get off the fanboi train already.

 

[TimeWillTell]

How much spotting have you done at matches? Not much I'd guess. .308 does absolutely make more splash on steel at 1000 than 6.5. I've spotted thousands of rounds at matches and find it easier to spot .308 impacts than 6.5. Like it or not. Will he statistically make more impacts with 6.5? Likely so.

I swear. Your insistence that he move to 6.5 borders on fanaticism. And I like 6.5 calibers. It's what I shoot, but get off the fanboi train already.

I told him to stick with 308 so your frustration is misplaced. I prefer 6.5 without a doubt, but in his case I'd stick with what I have a bunch of support already.

Splash off steel and moving steel (or specific as someone above stated:bong vs ting) is two different things. And I conceded splash off steel may be something I hadn't considered.

 

[STROP]

Not to forget recoil and seating (neck) length/OAL. Every bit helps if you want to win.

If you're out there primarily to battle yourself and push your own limits and "fk the final score", either catridge is fine.

I'm in the latter camp myself, a 7mm butthurt.

 

[lash]

I told him to stick with 308 so your frustration is misplaced. I prefer 6.5 without a doubt, but in his case I'd stick with what I have a bunch of support already.

Splash off steel and moving steel (or specific as someone above stated:bong vs ting) is two different things. And I conceded splash off steel may be something I hadn't considered.

Hmmm, mighta missed that part of your conversation. But not afraid to say so.

 

[Ledzep]

no i just spend more time shooting it than i do bawking over ballistic charts and .07 improvements in BC

Gotta disagree man. I've shot 308, and I have friends that still run it. Here in a couple weeks I'm going to get a 16-18" .308 barrel spun up for my ARC M5 w/barloc again to play with... Anyway, around 2013 I switched to .260 from .308 and it's a marked difference. .6-.7 G1 BC @ 2750-2850fps is no joke. Elevation is whatever, but you definitely keenly notice it in the wind. The 6mm's, trajectory wise, is yet another marked difference. Little laser beams. .55-.6 BC @ 3150fps. You notice that difference. Each step down in caliber you also notice the lighter recoil.

OP and everyone else is free to do as they wish. I think there's nothing wrong with most any modern "high-power" caliber in terms of trajectory because propellants and bullets these days mean most everything is 1000yd capable. But there are real reasons why most guys gravitate towards 6-6.5mm for this 1200yd and in LR stuff...

 

[Hawk in WY]

How much spotting have you done at matches? Not much I'd guess. .308 does absolutely make more splash on steel at 1000 than 6.5. I've spotted thousands of rounds at matches and find it easier to spot .308 impacts than 6.5. Like it or not. Will he statistically make more impacts with 6.5? Likely so.

I swear. Your insistence that he move to 6.5 borders on fanaticism. And I like 6.5 calibers. It's what I shoot, but get off the fanboi train already.

You've got to see it to believe it.

 

[morganlamprecht]

if youre just shooting to shoot for fun, keep running 308

if youre trying to compete and dont want to be at a disadvantage, shoot a 6/6.5

anyone who tells you the 6/6.5 wont be a considerable advantage over the 308 when compared on an even line, ignore everything else they say after that, cause its BS

 

[Remotejjk]

I got a question if you shooting .308, doesn't that mean you will be shooting in the tactical div.? which means you shouldn't be shooting vs someone with 6.5CM.

This is really an open question I don't know much about PRS beside the fact i want to get into it

 

[morganlamprecht]

I got a question if you shooting .308, doesn't that mean you will be shooting in the tactical div.? which means you shouldn't be shooting vs someone with 6.5CM.

This is really an open question I don't know much about PRS beside the fact i want to get into it

for the Points race, its the tactical division...but as far as the match goes, everyone shoots the same COF...so a guy in tactical might finish 40th in the match, but he would get 100 pts for being top tactical and usually they have a trophy for them, as well

 

[Greg Langelius *]

...And then there's Pinocchio....

,,,,At Midway....

 

[Bender]

I started with .308 as well.

I have a 6.5 CM now

It’s popular for a reason.

Just saying.

 

[Luke]

My opinion is that there is no wrong choice - If you love .308, by all means shoot it and have fun! If you want to get a 6.5CM and give it a try, why not? If you end up not liking it, you can shoot it until you need a new barrel and go back to .308, or just sell the barrel and get another .308 barrel. It's not like you'll be stuck with your decision for the rest of your life...

 

[GM795]

You’re not going to get anywhere near 3000fps with a .308 155 in a 24” barrel. You would need at least a 28” but more realistically you would want the full 30”, which is standard in FTR, to see 3000fps with the 155.

Any way you look at it, the 6.5 beats the .308.

6.5 wins in the wind.
6.5 wins on trajectory.
6.5 wins on recoil.
6.5 wins on ease of reloading for tight groups.
6.5 just wins…

All that said, get another .308 barrel, here’s why –

The .308 is a shooters calibre. She makes you earn everything you do with her. She demands the proper application of the fundamentals every time you pull the trigger. Body position? Perfect. Cheekweld? Perfect. Trigger control? Perfect. Follow through? You guessed it, Perfect. And you better believe she will fuck you over the second you stop treating her with the perfection she deserves.
She demands that you study, focus and pay full attention to what she does in the wind cause if she catches you snoozin, ur gonna pay!
But if you can learn to master all her quirks, her shortfalls and handle the occasional tantrum, then you will come out the other side a superior shooter for the experience and she’ll be right there smiling with you when you wipe the eye of the guy next to you with the 6.5.


Me, I shoot 6XC….

 

[GM795]

Only joking, I'm a man, I shoot .308 of course.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I shoot .260, and use a .308 F/L die as a bump die. Either will do the job, but the .308 will teach you about wind the hard way (and, I think, the best way).

I buy 7-08 brass and neck it down to .260. I leave the back half/third of the neck at original 7-08 diameter. I results in less neck tension, and very positively centers the neck in the chamber. Where I used to get carbon staining down to about 1/2" inch below the shoulder, it's now just a very narrow ring right behind where the neck diameter flares slightly. For the most part, I just wipe the case/neck walls down with rubbing alcohol and proceed directly to resizing, no tumbling, etc.

Greg

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

6.5 is quite possibly the single most overrated cartridge ive ever seen.......its a good cartridge dont get me wrong......but yall act like its fucking gods gift to man.

it offers ballistics SLIGHTLY better than 308....

if you have a good setup with 308, no reason not to stick with it.

if you miss with 308, you are going to miss with 6.5

a missed wind call of 1 or 2 mph is worth more than the ballistic advantage you get from 6.5

If it's only a slight advantage, than why does every shooting sport segregate 308 into it's own little class? And why are the people that are shooting in that classification posting significantly lower scores than equally capable shooters armed with 6.5mm and 6mms?

 

[morganlamprecht]

If it's only a slight advantage, than why does every shooting sport segregate 308 into it's own little class? And why are the people that are shooting in that classification posting significantly lower scores than equally capable shooters armed with 6.5mm and 6mms?

lol i love shooting with 308 die hards...their favorite thing to say on the range is "well, im only shooting a 308..."

 

[...]

lol i love shooting with 308 die hards...their favorite thing to say on the range is "well, im only shooting a 308..."

literally no one has ever said that to you.