Thinking about sticking with .308 vs. 6.5, am I crazy?

[morganlamprecht]

literally no one has ever said that to you.

literally, every time there's a 308 shooter in the squad...

 

[powerspc]

I’ll confess right up front that I know virtually nothing about ballistics (I am learning and I will know a lot someday, but today? I’m a babe in the woods). That said the .308/7.62 cartridge is a capable round, easily sourced and cheap to shoot. I see lots of people chasing the latest and greatest and I am guilty of that myself at times. (Full disclosure I not only have a PS90 I have two Five-seveN’s. Why two? Because I liked the first one so much).

The latest craze in the AR world of course is the .225 Valkyrie; personally I’m holding out for the .226 Sea Cow (yes I made that last one up). I love the 7.62, have used it professionally and I am confident within its limits (800m) that it will get the job done. Last, in a true Zombie Apocalypse (a euphemism for any number of natural or man-made disasters) moment I know I can walk into any gun store, Cabela’s, Bass Pro, Walmart or in some parts of the Country the corner gas station and pick up a box of ammo. 6.5? Don’t count on it; keep the .308.

 

[dimar1492]

literally no one has ever said that to you.

I've heard that at least once at pretty much every match I've ever attended.

And countless times during various range trips.

This isn't like bracket racing drag cars where the most consistent/skilled driver always wins. It's more like grudge racing where given two equivalent drivers and the significantly faster car will win.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

lol i love shooting with 308 die hards...their favorite thing to say on the range is "well, im only shooting a 308..."

The difference between shooting a 6.5mm and a .30 cal is 20-40 hits during a 200 round match. The top Tactical shooter was 56th in the last big match I went to.

Even if you assume Cameron isn't just a troll from 4Chan, and is at least average among competitive shooters, and take away 30 of his points in a match by giving him a 308, he is basically firing misses on half of the targets. The last CORE match, the middle of the pack shooter had 130 impacts on a 200 round match, so subtract 30 from that and you're throwing away basically 10 boxes of ammo.

 

[Snuby642]

It only takes one high profile shooting these days to empty the store shelves.
When the cockroach apocalypse happens people will use whatever they have to take whatever they need.
It will just seem less personal from a couple more hundred yards out.

 

[3-0-hate]

Is 155's at 3k fps out of a 24" a realistic expectation? I don't load 308 so I really am curious but it sounds optimistic.

No. Another flaw in the comparison.

Not really. There is much anecdotal and real world evidence of many people getting 2950+ with a 24" barrel. If I decided to push it to 25" or 26" and its a somewhat fast tube, there is no reason why I wouldn't be able to get to 3000fps.. Would I be in an accuracy node? who knows. But the potential of the 3k MV is there.

My 20" tube isn't the fastest around, in fact its pretty slow, but Im still getting the following results:

155 ELD-M, Lapua case, FGGM primer, measured with a Magnetospeed
47gr RE15 - 2806 fps
43.6gr AR-Comp - 2789fps
46.8gr Varget - 2791fps (this is my most accurate load, loaded to a COAL of 2.880)

Adding another 4" of barrel could very well get me to 3000fps, or close, IMO.

 

[Supersubes]

Not really. There is much anecdotal and real world evidence of many people getting 2950+ with a 24" barrel. If I decided to push it to 25" or 26" and its a somewhat fast tube, there is no reason why I wouldn't be able to get to 3000fps.. Would I be in an accuracy node? who knows. But the potential of the 3k MV is there.

My 20" tube isn't the fastest around, in fact its pretty slow, but Im still getting the following results:

155 ELD-M, Lapua case, FGGM primer, measured with a Magnetospeed
47gr RE15 - 2806 fps
43.6gr AR-Comp - 2789fps
46.8gr Varget - 2791fps (this is my most accurate load, loaded to a COAL of 2.880)

Adding another 4" of barrel could very well get me to 3000fps, or close, IMO.

You’re not going to get 50 fps per inch of extra barrel. Seems unwise to me to go down a road in the hope that you get a fast barrel. Especially when an average load in the 6.5 with a 140 eld will still beat it.

In my personal rifles, 155 lapua /varget out of a 24” barrel never exceeded 2850 with everyday loads.

 

[GM795]

Adding another 4" of barrel could very well get me to 3000fps, or close, IMO.

That’s a common misconception I’m afraid. You’ll get about 80-100fps going from 20”- 24”, maybe another 80fps from 24” – 28”, then you start seeing diminishing returns, say another 50fps from 28” – 30”.

There is a reason FTR shooters start at a min of 30”, 32” is more common and 34” not so uncommon either. Back when the 155.5 Berger was king of .308, I was getting the Holy Grail of 3150fps with a 1in14 twist 34” but heavy bolts were par for the course and my brass was done after 3 firings.

I would recommend getting a 24” barrel, 1in9 twist, dropping the 155 and going with the Berger 185 JUGS or the Hornady 178 ELD, you should get close to 2800fps with no pressure if done right. Then its all down to reading the wind which is the joy of the .308 anyway.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

That’s a common misconception I’m afraid. You’ll get about 80-100fps going from 20”- 24”, maybe another 80fps from 24” – 28”, then you start seeing diminishing returns, say another 50fps from 28” – 30”.

There is a reason FTR shooters start at a min of 30”, 32” is more common and 34” not so uncommon either. Back when the 155.5 Berger was king of .308, I was getting the Holy Grail of 3150fps with a 1in14 twist 34” but heavy bolts were par for the course and my brass was done after 3 firings.

I would recommend getting a 24” barrel, 1in9 twist, dropping the 155 and going with the Berger 185 JUGS or the Hornady 178 ELD, you should get close to 2800fps with no pressure if done right. Then its all down to reading the wind which is the joy of the .308 anyway.

Pretty much this right here. But just get the 6.5 mm and be done with it.

The normal FTR and Palma loads are only getting around 2950 to 3000fps with 155gr bullets. Even the best 308 Winchester loads are still way behind even a modest 6.5 Creedmoor load. Some of the match results I referenced when coming up with 20-40 less hits over the course of a match were before PRS imposed a 178gr weight limit on bullets and people were shooting 185gr Bergers.

 

[FishDr]

Agree with the above. I love 308. When I had a 26”, I managed 2965fps with 155 SMK palmas. It was a very warm load, difficult extraction on about 1/3 cases. Those are known for short bearing length, and I was a slow twist barrel. Doubt you will see 3000 from. 24” without pushing beyond what one would want to shoot on a regular basis. My 20” delivered about 2820 with same load.

Your 120 gn bullets in the 6.5 are also not optimal. However, if you used those in a 24”Barrel (260) you would easily achieve well over 3000 FPS. This was not an apples to apples comparison.

That said, in your situation, staying with the 308 wouldn’t be bad choice. I still have one and enjoy it very much.

 

[Ledzep]

The typical "accuracy' life of a 6.5 mm is around 1500 rounds, I think the 6mm cartridge adds a couple hundred rounds on that.

A 308 barrel is good for 5000 rounds.

6.5's probably closer to 2500-3000 rounds. 1500 is the 6's morelike.

 

[Nik H]

I have barrels for both calibers for My AI AT.

Don't have much to add that hasn't been related previously. I shoot a little more 6.5 now than .308 but consistently hitting steel at 800 or greater on a windy day with a .308 makes you smile all day long. It will certainly sharpen your wind skills and make you focus on follow through until you get it right.

I love both calibers and with the AT, I don't have to choose.

 

[steve123]

I've heard that at least once at pretty much every match I've ever attended.

And countless times during various range trips.

This isn't like bracket racing drag cars where the most consistent/skilled driver always wins. It's more like grudge racing where given two equivalent drivers and the significantly faster car will win.

I've literally seen 308 shooters(plural- more than one) show up to the old AZPRC match and not hit a single steel. Literally that's the only cartridge capable of that much suck, even 223 shooters with AR's would hit some steel.

Also literally seen world renowned instructors shooting 308 at that same match, """professionals that teach long range rifle and call wind as part of their living""", finish only half way up the roster. I watched one of them have to dial 5-6 mils of wind and "like I said" miss way to the right and way to the left at 1080Y. I held 2.5 mils and got both hits.

Yeah, it was windy there, speed and BC, both combined, does help!!!

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

6.5's probably closer to 2500-3000 rounds. 1500 is the 6's morelike.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say the people he is shooting with are probably using 6.5-284s which will only get 1500 rounds in most cases, or less.

But you are correct when it comes to mid capacity 6.5mms.

 

[vh20]

The typical "accuracy' life of a 6.5 mm is around 1500 rounds, I think the 6mm cartridge adds a couple hundred rounds on that.

Typically, most 6.5s have longer barrel life than 6s, unless you go to extremes at either end.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When I shoot these days, some of my rifles conform to at least one of the three F Class division. I started out with F Open in 2002, shooting the .260, a Savage 10FP with a 24" factory barrel. A year or two later, I upgraded it with Lothar-Walther 28" barrel. About then, we had some medical/economic stresses, and I divested the M1A and Ruger KM77VT MK II .308.

More recently, maybe five years ago, I acquired a Savage 11VT .223, and tricked it up with a Choate/Savage Tactical stock, Mueller 8-32x44 target Scope, with 20 MOA EGW Steel Base, and Vortex Medium 30MM Tactical (6-cap screws) Rings. After shooting it in the 20i7 Berger SW LR Nats F T/R MR (600yd) matches, I decided it was great basic setup, but I needed something more for the 1000yd distance. Already knowing teh process, I assembled another 11VT .308 exactly as the .223, and it's currently in low priority load development with the 178's.

For me, the .308 has what's needed for 1000yd F T/R, and the rules limit chamberings to .223 and .308. So I had finally come up with a legitimate application for returning to the .308.

I also have a pair of Stag Model 6 Super Varminters (heavy 24", 1:8" Stainless barrels); one of which has also been shot at the same matches in MR 600yd F T/R.

Greg

 

[...]

I've literally seen 308 shooters(plural- more than one) show up to the old AZPRC match and not hit a single steel. Literally that's the only cartridge capable of that much suck, even 223 shooters with AR's would hit some steel.

Also literally seen world renowned instructors shooting 308 at that same match, """professionals that teach long range rifle and call wind as part of their living""", finish only half way up the roster. I watched one of them have to dial 5-6 mils of wind and "like I said" miss way to the right and way to the left at 1080Y. I held 2.5 mils and got both hits.

Yeah, it was windy there, speed and BC, both combined, does help!!!

yeah....im sure its the cartridges fault they suck at shooting.....

jesus, did you even listen to yourself when you said that?

im assuming you are a grown adult.....my question is how did you survive this long being this fucking retarded?


.308 is the standard service cartridge for US ARMY and MARINE snipers (not to mention countless LEO agencies).........how do they manage to hit anything with those "sucky" rounds?.......under combat conditions no less.......surely if you "couldnt hit anything" those guys whos lives depend on it might have chirped up by now

 

[Ledzep]

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...g-at-a-new-6-5-mm-round-for-its-sniper-rifle/

The military is looking at the 6.5 Creedmoor. The army and SOCOM are already using .300wm to make up for where the .308 falls off at longer distance.

Police snipers typical engagement is what ? 40 yards? Almost never beyond 200.

And of course, just because the military uses it..... means it's "adequate enough" for use in existing logistic systems and doesn't suck so bad that the status quo will keep working... for now.

 

[...]

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...g-at-a-new-6-5-mm-round-for-its-sniper-rifle/

The military is looking at the 6.5 Creedmoor. The army and SOCOM are already using .300wm to make up for where the .308 falls off at longer distance.

Police snipers typical engagement is what ? 40 yards? Almost never beyond 200.

And of course, just because the military uses it..... means it's "adequate enough" for use in existing logistic systems and doesn't suck so bad that the status quo will keep working... for now.

1) the military is always looking at new cartridges.....so the fact that they are looking at 6.5 is nothing that should surprise anyone......

2) im not saying that .308 doesnt have shortcomings........certainly compared to .300wm......and yes, even some compared to 6.5

3) the 308 has been in use by the military for over 50 years.......safe to say it is a touch more than "adequate enough"......

now dont get me wrong, im not saying the 308 is the best round ever........but when yall are coming out and saying "BAH YOU CANT HIT ANYTHING WITH A 308".......im going to call you a fucking moron.....because you are.

now if i were to buy a NEW gun for competetion.....yes, i would probably go with 6.5

HOWEVER......if you already have a 308, and its shooting well........the benefits of going to 6.5 are not that great enough that you should switch

 

[powerspc]

What he (mcameron) says. The Army’s CSASS program chose HK in 7.62mm for a reason. I have used .308/7.62 professionally for years; out to 800 meters I have complete confidence in both my abilities and the rounds.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I'm a newbie and started looking at precision rifles less than a year ago. Since then I have shot a bunch of different guns, custom and off the shelf, in various calibers. I selected 6.5CM for my first venture because, all things being equal, I just plain found the 6.5CM to be better for me. More hits and better accuracy at all distances compared to .308/7.62.

I don't think it's a matter of either or for everybody - one size will never fit all. But for me I just plain shoot 6.5CM better with less fuss than I do .308. 3 years from now I'll have more skill and might make better use of the .308/7.62 but I'd bet the inherent advantages of the 6.5CM will still push me that direction when my skills develop.

I had the choice and chose 6.5CM over .308 for my first gun.

VooDoo

 

[Conrad]

.308 has the advantages of good barrel life, and good recoil feedback so that you don’t cheat the fundamentals. It will make you a good wind reader. It also is an effective round for killing things. These are all good things.

If we are shooting at 2 MOA steel which is ~0.6 mils and we want to talk about a 2 mph wind calling error then traditional 308 bullets (175 SMK and 178 AMAX) start to fall out of the error envelope around 650 yards. Aiming at the middle of the target and that 2 mph missed call pushes the bullet 0.3 mils and you miss. The new 178 ELDX breathes some life into the round and makes it more competitive, but it is the older rounds that are typically compared to the 6.5 bullets in statistical models that simply can’t be argued with. Run the math on your target size and how much wind blows it off target. A hit is a hit with a 6.5 on steel even if it caught the edge while a .308 sails 3” to the left is still a miss. This logic can be applied to other occupations too.

 

[Ledzep]

Yeah what Conrad said. Windage "delta" is the cause for misses most of the time. Error in your guess on wind vs. the real down-range conditions.

The .308 can come close, but is never better than the 6.5 in that regard unless you take the best or better end of the .308 vs. the vanilla or mediocre 6.5's. If you apply the same technology, rifle parameters, etc. to both calibers, the 6.5 creedmoor gives better performance in pretty much every regard other than barrel life.

It does have an effect on hit percentage because I've watched several acquaintances and friends swap to .308 for a year of PRS/NRL shooting and they fall several positions on average from where they usually place in those matches. Do they out-shoot a lot of people with 6mm's and 6.5mm's? Of course. But the same guys come back next year with their 6's or 6.5's and place back where they "should" be, several places higher on average.

I don't think anyone ever said it will mean you don't hit "anything". You will miss more, though, statistically speaking. Just the way it is. .308 is capable, it's not like you're better off having nothing if you can't have a 6.5... but given the choice, and the only thing holding you down is some dies and brass, I'd swap. I do almost every barrel anyway.


ETA:
To speak back to the OP's original question. You can sell projectiles, and if you have new brass (or even 1-2x fired) you can recoup some cost on that. Varget is a common powder and can be used in other calibers... or save all you have and go back to .308 if you don't like 6.5 down the road.......

Whatever performance you want with 155 ELD's in whatever barrel length .308, play with a real 6.5 bullet (140 ELDM or 147 ELDM, for example, not 120's) and adjust velocity accordingly to get the same super-sonic range, or whatever... You'll notice you don't need such a long barrel, or on the flip side the same long barrel will make it that much easier for you.

Brass costs pretty much the same and there are several brands of high quality stuff for both calibers. Bullet cost is pretty much identical, powder cost is pretty much identical (tiny edge to the 6.5), primers are identical.

Again, the only downer is you'll get 2500-3500 rounds instead of 3500-5000. And that depends a LOT on the loads you shoot. Run a 26-28" barrel with moderate 6.5 loads and you can get ballistic performance will still be better than a screaming .308.. in which case barrel life might be more similar than you'd think...

 

[spife7980]

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/25/how-much-does-cartridge-matter/

 

[BCX]

You’re not going to get anywhere near 3000fps with a .308 155 in a 24” barrel. You would need at least a 28” but more realistically you would want the full 30”, which is standard in FTR, to see 3000fps with the 155.

I run a 22 inch plus brake w a 308 and i have ran 155 Scenars @ 3000 and 185 Juggernauts to 2735 average verified w a Magnetospeed. Yes they are hot loads in Lapua LR brass but no signs of pressure.

 

[GM795]

I run a 22 inch plus brake w a 308 and i have ran 155 Scenars @ 3000 and 185 Juggernauts to 2735 average verified w a Magnetospeed. Yes they are hot loads in Lapua LR brass but no signs of pressure.

I'd be sending that Magneto in for repair.

 

[Ledzep]

In my 22" .260 my hot loads were 140 ELDM @ 2837fps avg. on a magnetospeed. Run that next to your .308 loads. Not picking fight, just giving up relevant data points.

 

[cheapmoa]

People shoot 6.5 because of recoil not ballistics. You can get a high BC bullet in 30 Cal. but it will weigh 200+ grains. If you just need to make a mark on steel during a competition then 6mm 6.5mm are always going to be an advantage because of recoil and following your shot.

If you compare apples to apples such as a 24" - 26" 308 WIN shooting a 208 ELDM to a 24" - 26" 6.5 CM shooting a 140 ELDM then the actual differences are zero on the wind correction and marginal on the elevation. I have several of both and the only major difference is recoil. (See JBM Attachments)

If you are going to shoot 155s from a .308 then a 6.5 will always have better ballistics and less recoil.

 

[xdeano]

Op. I had a gap crusader in 308 back in the day, everyone was shooting the 175smk and I was shooting the 155g lapua scenars at 2925 with excellent results. Later on down the timeline I picked up a 6.5 creed. It shot just fine, but when loaded with 130s at 2835fps I felt like I wasn't gaining anything over the 308 with 155s. Ive since sold the crusader and 6.5 creed barrel down the road. If you want to utilize the high bc 6.5 bullets or even 308 bullets you'll need to step to a mag. Ive since had a friend spin up a 6.5 Saum. It blows the 6.5 creedmoor out of the water. I know thats not what you want to hear. If I were going to choose between the 308 and 6.5 creed, id choose the one you already have dies and components for. There is nothing wrong with the 308 pushing the 155s. Wish I would have kept that crusader.

Xdeano

 

[xdeano]

Oh I forgot, if you have a suppressor the 308 is fun to shoot with subs too! Great for kids to plink with. You basically get a 308 and a 300 blk with the same round. Granted you can do this with the 6.5s too.
Xdeano

 

[BCX]

I'd be sending that Magneto in for repair.

LOL those loads have been verified w different chronographs and the dope is true out to 1k. I can PM you my load data if your a 308 shooter, the load must be worked up and powder trickled in than vibrated w a couple taps on the loading press...... as they are heavily compressed.

 

[BCX]

Im not one to spend countless hours looking at JBM either way w any caliber your dialing. Just saying don't over look a good 308 w hand loads loads tailored to your rifle. Get out and shoot!!!!! see you on the range.

 

[GM795]

LOL those loads have been verified w different chronographs and the dope is true out to 1k. I can PM you my load data if your a 308 shooter, the load must be worked up and powder trickled in than vibrated w a couple taps on the loading press...... as they are heavily compressed.

That would be great, thanks. Really want this to be real. I’ve got .308 tattooed on my ass.

 

[...]

Im not one to spend countless hours looking at JBM either way w any caliber your dialing. Just saying don't over look a good 308 w hand loads loads tailored to your rifle. Get out and shoot!!!!! see you on the range.

thats just the thing.......people would rather spend countless hours jerking off over ballistics tables.......and never actually shoot.


"oh this round is 30% better than this round"

"this round has 20% less recoil than this round"

ect.

percentages dont mean jack shit.

example....

if you have $1.....and i give you another $1......you just increased your money by 100%....sounds impressive...but you still only have 2 fucking dollars.

 

[morganlamprecht]

its a shame all the 308 hype boys dont get out and shoot more often and show everyone whats up...

easier to talk about it on the nets i suppose

 

[spife7980]

if you have $1.....and i give you another $1......you just increased your money by 100%....sounds impressive...but you still only have 2 fucking dollars.

Such stupid logic.
Thats also 100% increase when you would otherwise get nothing. I have a job which prevents me from being out shooting during the week so I might as well maximize my time shooting in the ways that I can.

What you dont hear me saying is "No, you keep that free dollar, Im poor and want to continue to stay poor" because with only 1 dollar to my name I could sure as hell use every bit I can get.

 

[steve123]

yeah....im sure its the cartridges fault they suck at shooting.....

jesus, did you even listen to yourself when you said that?

im assuming you are a grown adult.....my question is how did you survive this long being this fucking retarded?


.308 is the standard service cartridge for US ARMY and MARINE snipers (not to mention countless LEO agencies).........how do they manage to hit anything with those "sucky" rounds?.......under combat conditions no less.......surely if you "couldnt hit anything" those guys whos lives depend on it might have chirped up by now

I've turned over a new leaf, I'm not calling people names anymore, nor will I argue either, but I will give and have given my opinion, which I gave through good example.

I shouldn't have used the word "literally" twice, I offended you, my apologies. The reason why is that I get too passionate about seeing guys trying to compete with 308's against ballistically superior cartridges after repeatably seeing the same poor performances happen over and over again.

LOL, yes, obviously those individuals I mentioned weren't good shots. Some of those guys never came back to the AZPRC after such humiliation which is a sad thing. One of them that I became acquainted with came back with a 260 a few months later and he hit steel. The truth remains in my example that only those few guys shooting 308 were the ones that didn't hit anything but dust.

Anybody can see that 308 isn't the best long range cartridge around, all you have to do is put data into a ballistic calculator and assimilate the truth and the proof is right here in this thread, including my post. It's been hashed over a million times but for whatever reason people don't want to see that it is what it is. Just yesterday I was shooting my 40x/308 on steel at 675Y, MAN, that was frustrating in those wind conditions! !!

Answering your question is simple, they expend more ammo to hit what they aim at or shoot a cartridge more suitable for long range. Does 300WM, 338L, 50 BMG, ring a bell, might there be reasons for them??!! It's 2018 not 1952 when the ,308 became a cartridge, in other words it's time for change, as proven by practical precision competitions.

You're a smart guy, I'm sure you can think of many reasons why 308 is still used/ governmental or agency politics, financial reasons, ignorance, etc. There are so many reasons why agencies and military still use 308 that it's ridiculous!!!!!!!!!! Absolutely none have to do with cartridge performance or what's best for the trigger pullers.

 

[...]

Such stupid logic.
Thats also 100% increase when you would otherwise get nothing. I have a job which prevents me from being out shooting during the week so I might as well maximize my time shooting in the ways that I can.

What you dont hear me saying is "No, you keep that free dollar, Im poor and want to continue to stay poor" because with only 1 dollar to my name I could sure as hell use every bit I can get.

and like i said before.......if you were to buy a NEW gun....ide go with 6.5......but where you already have a 308, the benefits arent that much greater to switch.

if taking that extra dollar required you to buy a new wallet to carry it in, imma guess you wouldnt bother taking it...........but if you had to buy a new wallet anyways, it would be in your interest to take it, might as well.

 

[BCX]

its a shame all the 308 hype boys dont get out and shoot more often and show everyone whats up...

easier to talk about it on the nets i suppose

I usually do lol. I love banging steel out to 1K or shooting a practice F-Class shoot w as they call it a short rifle ... than all of a sudden they see whats it capable of. Don't get me wrong the programs are accurate but i don't believe they calculate for bullet mass. I also shoot the 6.5s and I'm sorry they don't bang the steal like the 30s do.

 

[Smooth_87]

308 has better barrel life which is good with all those misses you get.

Disclaimer. I shoot 308.

6.5 for LR target work is better end of story. The first step to recovery is acceptance.

Run the numbers on a 6.5saum or 7saum. They make the SA 6.5 and 308 family look like lobbing pebbles.

Out of curiousity, how long (in years) did it take for the 30-06 v 308 threads to stop?

 

[BCX]

Im building a 6.5 Prc/6.5 4s switch barrel on a short action w 28 inch tube tailored to the Sierra 150 for shooting 1200-2200 yards as we speak. I have not shot that far yet but i will take my 308 w 185 juggers to a mile this year before this other rifle is finished.

 

[TimeWillTell]

I usually do lol. I love banging steel out to 1K or shooting a practice F-Class shoot w as they call it a short rifle ... than all of a sudden they see whats it capable of. Don't get me wrong the programs are accurate but i don't believe they calculate for bullet mass. I also shoot the 6.5s and I'm sorry they don't bang the steal light the 30s do.

Bullet mass is a component of BC just FYI. So it's factored in.

 

[BCX]

308 has better barrel life which is good with all those misses you get.

Disclaimer. I shoot 308.

6.5 for LR target work is better end of story. The first step to recovery is acceptance.

Run the numbers on a 6.5saum or 7saum. They make the SA 6.5 and 308 family look like lobbing pebbles.

Out of curiousity, how long (in years) did it take for the 30-06 v 308 threads to stop?

I agree w a FAST 6.5 at extended 1k plus is superior but out to 1k in my experience w fast 155 or 185 jugger making first round hits or shooting tight groups is very doable.. go out and shoot. If you truly believe it is not feel free to meet me at Sheepdog warriors in Catskill NY on a weekend and you can run my GA Precision w my handholds. This started w the 6.5 CM and the 308 win not the fast 6.5/7 w bullets in .700 plus

 

[BCX]

Bullet mass is a component of BC just FYI. So it's factored in.

I should have explained little more in depth. A high bc 6.5 bullet/lighter mass will not rock a steel plate like a lower bc/heavier mass will at long range. I have shot deer at 500-590 yards w the 6.5 and 308. The reaction and terminal damage is always higher w the heavier mass. Sorry I'm going from my life experiences not from a program or a internet warrior LMFAO. You may have experienced diferently

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I shot 308 almost exclusively until about 4-5 years ago and have easily touched off 100K rounds of 308 at distance. Mostly my own loads with every bullet you can imagine but plenty of FGMM too. The best bullet I've found as far as consistency and performance (both with equal hits at distance) is the Berger 185gr Juggernaut, it performs very well in 308 and IMO is the best bullet you can shoot at 308 velocities.

With that said, anyone arguing that 308 can compete with a 6.5 is out of their mind. The only way they compete is when you compare one of the worst 6.5 projectiles to one of the best .308's.

You guys can argue back and forth all you want, but you can't argue with results.

 

[Ledzep]

Yep. On the absolute scale the .308 is capable. Nobody (that knows anything) is going to argue there. However, the 6.5 out-performs on every apples to apples (or as close as you can get) comparison. Less recoil, less elevation, less wind, less wind/range delta, higher hit probability, longer supersonic range...... Again, only at the cost of barrel life.

So the real question is what is a set of dies worth to you over the life of the barrel or several barrels if you stick with it? And that's the only thing that is going to be different from person to person because with a match grade barrel both calibers have the same accuracy potential, and the RELATIVE ballistics don't change.

So add up the cost of a die set and 2500 rounds worth of components plus a barrel and GS charges that apply for the 6.5, then do the same with 4000-5000 rounds for the .308.... then divide by the # of rounds, and find your total price per round and decide if the performance is worth the cost to you.

eta: apples to apples (178 eld vs. 140 eld) it's about 8 cents per round more expensive to shoot 6.5 creedmoor. Might drop over the next barrel a bit because you already have dies... Now if you do Berger 185's vs. Hornady 140 ELDM.. the .308 is more expensive by quite a bit............ Things to think about.

 

[TimeWillTell]

I should have explained little more in depth. A high bc 6.5 bullet/lighter mass will not rock a steel plate like a lower bc/heavier mass will at long range. I have shot deer at 500-590 yards w the 6.5 and 308. The reaction and terminal damage is always higher w the heavier mass. Sorry I'm going from my life experiences not from a program or a internet warrior LMFAO. You may have experienced diferently

I've experienced no noticeable difference in the two honestly. Other than more hits with a 6.5. We all have opinions and that's fine. You don't need to justify anything to me. You just stated you weren't sure if the ballistics programs took mass into consideration and I was just informing you that they do.

 

[jg6.5]

These threads are about as fun to watch as the 9mm vs 45ACP threads

But seriously though, OP...if you have a shit-pot full of components for a rifle you already have that shoots well enough for you, just stick with it until you run out or burn the barrel up. At that point, as others have said, then you can decide if you want a change of scenery. It's really that simple.

 

[spife7980]

So add up the cost of a die set and 2500 rounds worth of components plus a barrel and GS charges that apply for the 6.5, then do the same with 4000-5000 rounds for the .308.... then divide by the # of rounds, and find your total price per round and decide if the performance is worth the cost to you..

All prices via brownells normal list pricing. Obviously you can find anything on sale at any point in time, I cant really account for that variance. Im sure Im screwing the math up somewhere, yall check it and correct me. Im not going to worry about hazmat or tax etc

140 ELD
33.99/100=34 cents per
H4350
209.99/8/7000=.0037 dollars per grain
42gr*.0037=15.7 cents per round in powder
34+15.7=49.7 cents per shot
Lapua 6.5 brass
124.99/100=1.25 per
300 pieces*1.25=375 bucks
375/2500 shots=15 cents per shot
CCI 200
34.99/1000=3.5 cents per
49.7 from above+15+3.5= 68.2 cents per round
600 per barrel/2500=2.4 cents per round in barrel life
70.6 cents per round in 6.5 barrel life. 70.6*2500= 1765 over all cost to shoot out a 6.5 barrel.


178 eld
34.99/100=35 cents per
Varget
190.99/8/7000=.0034 dollars per grain
44gr*.003415= 15 cents per round in powder
35+15=50 cents per shot
Lapua 308 brass
83.99/100=84 cents per
300 pieces*.84=252 bucks
252/4000 shots=6.3 cents per shot
CCI 200
34.99/1000=3.5 cents per
50 from above+6.3+3.5=59.8 cents per shot
600 per barrel/4000=1.5 cents per
61.3 cents per round in 308 barrel life 61.3*4000=2452 over all cost to shoot out a 308 barrel.



The 6.5 at 70.6 cents per round * 4000 rounds to equal a 308 barrel life would be 2824
2824-2452=372 additional dollars for an equivalent amount of trigger pulling.
~14% more expensive

 

[Smooth_87]

I agree w a FAST 6.5 at extended 1k plus is superior but out to 1k in my experience w fast 155 or 185 jugger making first round hits or shooting tight groups is very doable.. go out and shoot. If you truly believe it is not feel free to meet me at Sheepdog warriors in Catskill NY on a weekend and you can run my GA Precision w my handholds. This started w the 6.5 CM and the 308 win not the fast 6.5/7 w bullets in .700 plus

I agree with you. I like to shoot the 2156 and have no issues with it to 1000. My 308 serves its purpose perfectly.