Sidearms & Scatterguns Thinking of ditching .40

[garandman]

Well… I will just reiterate what everyone who is actually here to be helpful to the OP agrees upon.... that even A well place 22 rim fire is to be preferred over a 50 Beowulf that grazes or misses.

Good luck, here, OP....

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

As I read all this shit, I wonder how many responders have ever been in a Civi gun fight, none cop, none militray. Looks to me there is perception carry over, from that realm or too much TV watching thinking that is real. Your best gun fight is the one you never attend.

 

[Veer_G]

But, but, but ...

 

[DannC]

It is well known that a pistol round requires a hit to the CNS or a large organ to effect an immediate stop. Humans will react in the same way as a game animal when they are bleeding from two holes rather than one.

Your 9mm may well dump all of it's energy in the body, but my 40 S&WS hit in the sane spot may exit and provide additional blood loss creating a faster stop.

 

[garandman]

It is well known that a pistol round requires a hit to the CNS or a large organ to effect an immediate stop. Humans will react in the same way as a game animal when they are bleeding from two holes rather than one.

Your 9mm may well dump all of it's energy in the body, but my 40 S&WS hit in the sane spot may exit and provide additional blood loss creating a faster stop.

See above. We already did that dance.

 

[garandman]

As I read all this shit, I wonder how many responders have ever been in a Civi gun fight, none cop, none militray. Looks to me there is perception carry over, from that realm or too much TV watching thinking that is real. Your best gun fight is the one you never attend.

I had one personal experience (I am civilian, and have never been LEO / .mil ) of defending my life with a gun. It was moderately terrifying. But taught me that its preferrable to have lots of rounds at my disposal, due to the physiological / nervous system realities of fearing for your life degrading eyesight, motor control, and rational abilities. This, depsite the statistical data that most gunfights are over in 2-3 shots fired.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I had one personal experience (I am civilian, and have never been LEO / .mil ) of defending my life with a gun. It was moderately terrifying. But taught me that its preferrable to have lots of rounds at my disposal, due to the physiological / nervous system realities of fearing for your life degrading eyesight, motor control, and rational abilities. This, depsite the statistical data that most gunfights are over in 2-3 shots fired.

I was in one (Civi) that was forced upon me long ago. A 4 on 1 an it was all over in about 2 seconds, I fired 3 shots total. I was happy to be in cuffs, as they did not far as well.

 

[garandman]

I was in one (Civi) that was forced upon me long ago. A 4 on 1 an it was all over in about 2 seconds, I fired 3 shots total. I was happy to be in cuffs, as they did not far as well.

Wow. As you said....best gunfight is the one you never attend.

I just know (1) it ain't like Hoillyweird shows (2) I'm no stone cold killer. I feared for my life. I did manage to control my bowels thru the encounter, so I'll call that a win.

I'm assuming you were exhonerated, and are not posting from prison.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Wow. As you said....best gunfight is the one you never attend.

I just know (1) it ain't like Hoillyweird shows (2) I'm no stone cold killer. I feared for my life. I did manage to control my bowels thru the encounter, so I'll call that a win.

I'm assuming you were exhonerated, and are not posting from prison.

The mouth with a rap sheet that was 3/4" thick did not survive the encounter, his second has no use of his right shoulder to this day, the other two pissed their pants, an their piss was on the street corner as well. I was cuffed an took down town, but after 8+ hrs they let me go as all LE said I had did them a favor in reality. I was warned about being sued by the parents, but nothing ever happened. I did not get scared until it had been over for about 2 minutes when I herd the sirens coming. I had got out of the truck an laid the weapon on the hood, mag out, slide locked back, my hands were in the air as the squads rolled up. Luckily the responding officers were very professional as were everyone I had to deal with over it.

 

[j-moose32]

Wow this went off the rails in a hurry. I’ll admit I actually laughed out loud at the picture of “which caliber should I shoot” meme thing haha

 

[garandman]

The mouth with a rap sheet that was 3/4" thick did not survive the encounter, his second has no use of his right shoulder to this day, the other two pissed their pants, an their piss was on the street corner as well. I was cuffed an took down town, but after 8+ hrs they let me go as all LE said I had did them a favor in reality. I was warned about being sued by the parents, but nothing ever happened. I did not get scared until it had been over for about 2 minutes when I herd the sirens coming. I had got out of the truck an laid the weapon on the hood, mag out, slide locked back, my hands were in the air as the squads rolled up. Luckily the responding officers were very professional as were everyone I had to deal with over it.

I was woken from a dead sleep at 2:12 AM by a shrieking car alarm in the driveway. Down the stairs, clearing the first floor, yanking open the front door and checking out the car in the dark gave me plenny of time to be scared. Never fired a shot. Descending the stairs was the hardest part. Best I can tell, the high winds rocked the Nissan Pathfinder and set off the alarm. Not a real glamorous story, but it was an education about real world self defense with a firearm.

 

[j-moose32]

Not that this provides much info on caliber effectiveness, but a quick look through glocks site and it is VERY clear they are favored towards 9mm
They offer every pistol they make in 9mm with the MOS option

 

[garandman]

Not that this provides much info on caliber effectiveness, but a quick look through glocks site and it is VERY clear they are favored towards 9mm
They offer every pistol they make in 9mm with the MOS option

Likely a reflection of public buying habits, and "giving the people what they want." God bless capitalism.

 

[j-moose32]

Likely a reflection of public buying habits, and "giving the people what they want." God bless capitalism.

Very true. I do want to mess with an RMR so that will factor in as well. Maybe just put a 10mm in the nightstand and 9mm for conceal lol.

Looking at the two obvious trijicon rmr vs Leupold Delta point pro... but I won’t start that argument. Did enough with this one haha

 

[garandman]

Very true. I do want to mess with an RMR so that will factor in as well. Maybe just put a 10mm in the nightstand and 9mm for conceal lol.

Looking at the two obvious trijicon rmr vs Leupold Delta point pro... but I won’t start that argument. Did enough with this one haha

I like my Sig red dot...

 

[RTH1800]

There is a lot of PC in the LE world just as everywhere else. Departments must chose and standardize on a pistol everyone can qualify with.
Men, limp wrist men, women, he women etc.
If they went with .45 ACP or 10 MM many could not handle it. In the world where "all the children are above average" that simply won't do.
If a few folks get killed so be it. It is all for the cause.

I am not taking sides on the caliber debate, just pointing out that there are factors other than success that are weighed into the equation.

 

[j-moose32]

There is a lot of PC in the LE world just as everywhere else. Departments must chose and standardize on a pistol everyone can qualify with.
Men, limp wrist men, women, he women etc.
If they went with .45 ACP or 10 MM many could not handle it. In the world where "all the children are above average" that simply won't do.
If a few folks get killed so be it. It is all for the cause.

I am not taking sides on the caliber debate, just pointing out that there are factors other than success that are weighed into the equation.

Agree fully. I think that is heavily weighed into the FBI saying the 9mm is the perfect LEO round. If you’ve seen any of them They are extremely “PC” to put it nicely, along with a lot of PDs and that’s why I haven’t been sold on 9mm yet.

I can really start a fire if I wanted and say I don’t trust the FBIs conclusion about 9mm since they also said not to pursue charges on Hillary. But I won’t start that haha

 

[Barracho]

Reload your own ammo, at least for practice and negate the cost difference between.40 and 9. Use the right bullet for the application and you shouldn’t have to worry about energy transfer and over penetration with 9mm. Practice a lot and you can accurately and quickly shoot a .40 and not be penalized by the snappiness. I like my Beretta Vertec in 9 and use it in IDPA and steel plate matches and do well. But there are plenty of competitors shooting.40 and beating me. It all comes down to practice.

 

[garandman]

9mm ammo is $200 / k.

For me it's far cheaper just to buy in bulk than the cost of components and time of reloading. And yes I have a Dillon 550C. And no I'm not getting A 650.

YMMV.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I shoot a G19 at the range w/ 124 gr projos to the tune of just over 3K rds a year, but carry a G23 with This Underwood ammo when leaving the driveway. I see no difference in recoil between the two, however the performance difference is huge on everything shot with it. If it's a certified shit hole a S&W 437 with These goes as well. Those 38 spl's out preform std 9mm on target as well. Sometimes it's not the chambering but what it throw's an how fast it leaves.

 

[j-moose32]

I’ll check into Underwood ammo and see what they have for offerings in 9mm. I know we use the Winchester ranger T so I’ll see what they have for 9mm. Either way I just picked up a trijicon RMR that will go on top of whatever pistol I acquire!

I really like the Glock 45 MOS...

 

[broncoaz]

I still have a bunch of .40 pistols deployed for defensive use. I bought my first Glock 23 when I turned 21 in 1997, at the time 9mm was for the weak/feeble and most LE was using .40. In the last 10 years I transitioned most of my practice guns to 9mm due to ammo costs, resale ability, and the commonality of mags/ammo to my 9mm AR. I haven’t sold off any .40 models yet, and I have two I’d never get rid of as they were my first and another was a gift from my dad. I keep a G23 in each car, one in the couch, one under my pillow, etc., but I don’t think I’ve shot one in a couple years.

On the Glock model 45/19X: these are my perfect Glocks. I have big hands and these fit perfect, while the ambi controls are easier for me as a lefty. I have 2 model 45’s, 2 19X, a G34 Gen 5, and a G17 Gen 5. I could be completely satisfied with all of my pistols being only the 45/19X.

 

[AMGtuned]

Have G22, 23, and 27, all in .40 s&w. Also have a pair of Eclipse custom 1911 in .45. Only reason I'd ever ditch the .40 pistols, is to switch to .357 sig and/or 10mm. Simply for the ballistics offered by the 2. Only reason for a handgun is to fight your way to a good rifle. My rifles are never that far.

 

[j-moose32]

I still have a bunch of .40 pistols deployed for defensive use. I bought my first Glock 23 when I turned 21 in 1997, at the time 9mm was for the weak/feeble and most LE was using .40. In the last 10 years I transitioned most of my practice guns to 9mm due to ammo costs, resale ability, and the commonality of mags/ammo to my 9mm AR. I haven’t sold off any .40 models yet, and I have two I’d never get rid of as they were my first and another was a gift from my dad. I keep a G23 in each car, one in the couch, one under my pillow, etc., but I don’t think I’ve shot one in a couple years.

On the Glock model 45/19X: these are my perfect Glocks. I have big hands and these fit perfect, while the ambi controls are easier for me as a lefty. I have 2 model 45’s, 2 19X, a G34 Gen 5, and a G17 Gen 5. I could be completely satisfied with all of my pistols being only the 45/19X.

Good to know you could be happy with just the 45x19x. I was considering getting a 45/ 17. The 45 really appeals to me as a carry gun. The 23 never fit well into my hand, and the 45 being full sized frame with shorter slide sound like a winner to me.

On actual ammo, I saw Winchester also makes “PD1x” which I came across just now and, I’d lean to the 147 grain. Feel free to toss other good ammo to check out my way

 

[Speedarino]

What ever works for you

 

[j-moose32]

Well I won’t say I completely abandoned the .40, but may have bought a Glock 45 off the exchange to get slide cut for a trijicon RMR ??

 

[leprechaun]

Dump the .40. With modern bullets and powders the 9mm gets you close enough with much less recoil letting you shoot faster. It’s cheaper and it’s all about shot placement in the end

 

[BCX]

Anyone that wants to dump their 40s for a 9??? Please PM me as i offer a free 40 SW ammo disposal service.!

 

[Niles Coyote]

I'll keep my 40's cause a 9mm can't fling 135 grain bullets 1400+ fps.

 

[BCX]

I'll keep my 40's cause a 9mm can't fling 135 grain bullets 1400+ fps.

Underwood 357 SIG can lol

 

[Niles Coyote]

Switching out a 40 cal barrel to a 357 sig would be a better option any day than down sizing to a 9x19

 

[BCX]

We do a ton of testing from carry guns in ballistic gel. I will never carry a 9x19. Anyone that thinks a 9x19 with SD ammo will equal a good SD 40 load prove it to yourself. Buy a block and do some testing. I guess if you feell comfortable than my all means go w the 9.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

We do a ton of testing from carry guns in ballistic gel. I will never carry a 9x19. Anyone that thinks a 9x19 with SD ammo will equal a good SD 40 load prove it to yourself. Buy a block and do some testing. I guess if you feell comfortable than my all means go w the 9.

Plus make sure you put cloths on the gel an a piece of glass in front of it. Then shoot it from a 45* angle,...

 

[kytrapper]

Opinion with .02 worth of history .....

9mm born in 1902

FBI using .38 and 9mm have a bad out come in Miami 1986 ( those who don’t remember..,, google it) plenty of rounds fired by 9mm

FBI push for more stopping power pushed the 10mm and ultimate resulted in the .40 s&w born 1990

Feb 28 1997 - LA bank shoot out ....
nearly 2000 rounds fired ... LE still carrying 9mm and .38 cal... 20 injured ...
2 deceased (one from self inflicted)
underguned LE debate begins

FBI adopt .40s&w 1997

LE follows suit and adopts .40 s&w..

effective 2016 ...FBI changes back to 9mm listing more magazine capacity among reasons

Trend in comparing rounds:

1) top line ultra performance acme super 9mm ammo to basic off the shelf bottom dollar .40 s&w

Reality:

1) bigger hard hitting rounds require more skill control and practice to accurately place

2) target number, location, armament and environmental conditions are things must of us are not able to
control

3) data can surprise you: research it

4) 12 ga has higher single shot stop data than any pistol round

5) History is often forgotten

Conclusion:

Trend follows fashion. Fashion is established by policy. Policy is more often than not established by political appointees.

Best advise:

Don’t get tunnel vision...

Don’t be under gunned....

Practice... use all techniques... ....
(Example: how many times a day do you practice.... drawing, presenting, firing and covering with your weapon from a concealed carry? no ammo required...)

Good luck !!!!......I hope you are Skilled, Prepared, Ready and Never have to Deploy!!!!)

 

[BCX]

Plus make sure you put cloths on the gel an a piece of glass in front of it. Then shoot it from a 45* angle,...

I’m familiar w FBI testing standards. Yes we test w cloths also. I don’t bother w glass due to using Gold Dots and HST loads.. plus I’m in a retreat state which dictates the protocol for use of deadly physical force.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

plus I’m in a retreat state which dictates the protocol for use of deadly physical force.

Sorry to hear that, I moved to Bama from Fla, an could bring my Machine guns but no Cans, SB/SG's or SBR's. Took a lot of work but now we can have anything. Trying to get the retreat laws repealed/changed would be just as hard, but worth it in the long run. Good luck if you start down that path,...

 

[Currycure]

I no longer own a 40, but a big part of my decision is because I do own a couple of 10mm pistols. I'm in the camp that believes the better 9mm loads are good enough for 2 legged threats. On paper 40 S&W looks somewhat better, but in the real world not enough to matter. If in the woods 10mm is enough of a step up to be a legitimate large predator defense round. I couldn't justify keeping both 40 and 10mm.

 

[Temper]

You guys should do yourself a favor and read the book Gunshot Wounds by Vincent DiMaio M.D. TL;DR in regards to handgun calibers, none have enough energy to tear the flesh in the temporary wound cavity like a rifle does. If you don't hit vitals you're not doing jack shit. As long as you have ~16" of penetration, weight retention(IE bonded bullets) and reliable expansion it really doesn't matter what you shoot them with. The difference between 9mm, 40 and 45 is very minuscule. You're better served with more bullets and less recoil. Everything else is fudd nonsense.

 

[j-moose32]

Well I pick up a Glock 45 9mm tomorrow and I’ll Atleast have shoot it to see how I like it!

And I recently was able to talk and train with a few people who have lots of experience shooting 2 legged threats (I was shooting .40). There un wavering mindset was that there is no pistol round that is one shot stop etc and it is shot placement etc etc.

Also provided a few anecdotal situations were 40 cal didn’t do the job as you think it would.

The repeated opinion on 40 was “.40 is dead, and if it’s not, it should be” lol

 

[BCX]

Central nervous system hits is the key. 2 to the chest 1 to the head.

 

[jdodd]

Just like the title says, thinking of doing a clean out of my pistols and going to all glocks, mostly 9mm and no more .40.

All this talk of “new technology” in 9mm blah blah, and not sure if .40
Is worth it. Will be doing a couple RMR setups, and seems like Glock is also starting to focus on 9mm and get away from .40

Give me the push over the hill or reel me back in!

Just did the same thing. Sold all my pistols and went full Glock in 9mm. Its a simple and effective platform that really is hard to beat.

 

[jdodd]

Well I pick up a Glock 45 9mm tomorrow and I’ll Atleast have shoot it to see how I like it!

And I recently was able to talk and train with a few people who have lots of experience shooting 2 legged threats (I was shooting .40). There un wavering mindset was that there is no pistol round that is one shot stop etc and it is shot placement etc etc.

Also provided a few anecdotal situations were 40 cal didn’t do the job as you think it would.

The repeated opinion on 40 was “.40 is dead, and if it’s not, it should be” lol

The Glock Model 45 is my favorite 9mm. I have a 19x that was milled for an RMR, and Glock 45 thats stock (less night sights) and I plan to buy another 45 just to stick in the back of the safe.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Well you guys can dump everything except a 9 if you want, but I like to keep my options open. What are you guys in ca. going to do if that shit hole bans 9 ammo? Or what if uncle cuts of/out your favorite chamber'ing? I'll stick with what I have an not sell off what might be my only salvation if SHFT.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Well you guys can dump everything except a 9 if you want, but I like to keep my options open. What are you guys in ca. going to do if that shit hole bans 9 ammo? Or what if uncle cuts of/out your favorite chamber'ing? I'll stick with what I have an not sell off what might be my only salvation if SHFT.

Yes exactly, and also if there is some kind of market run.

Like in the panic during Obama.

For awhile it was hard to get 9mm or .223 or .22 ammo to go out and shoot.
But .40 S&W and .45 were still available to shoot all you wanted.

Couldn't find .22LR anywhere practically for some time, but you could get .22 mag if you had a way to shoot it.

I have pistols in a lot of calibers as well as rifles in lots, partly for that and partly because you never know what will be available / picked up in the future.

 

[j-moose32]

I can see what your saying about limiting yourself to one caliber being a problem in SHTF situation or ammo cutoff.

Still going all Glock, majority 9mm. Maybe pick up a few on the cheap in.40 and .45 and throw in the safe for a rainy day

The price difference alone in practice ammo is enough to make me want to shoot 9mm

 

[Temper]

The money spent on different caliber pistols and ammo for them can just be used to create a bigger 9mm stockpile. I don’t get that logic. 9mm isn’t going anywhere. It wasn’t hard to find during the Obama years, it was just more expensive.

 

[j-moose32]

Very true. And in a legitimate SHTF type of crap, I’ll be going for a rifle lol

 

[Spartan67]

@j-moose32, Maybe Im over simplifying things, But you your guns are dead nut reliable, and you can shoot them with lifesaving confidence, why switch just because " everyone else is".
AS a LEO, you"ve fired 1000"s of rounds with it, and trust it with your life. What's better than that?

 

[W54/XM-388]

It wasn’t hard to find during the Obama years, it was just more expensive.

Do you remember the panic shortly after Sandy Hook?
The one where $500 ARs were fetching $2k+ for a couple weeks?

At least around here, it became very difficult to get any quantity of .223 or .22 or 9mm ammo for quite a few months.

People were nice about it for the most part however.
I was at a gun show where the guy picked up the last bag (and I mean sandwich bag) of 100 rounds of .223 ammo someone had on one of the tables and the guy behind him was disappointed as neither had I guess any in stock, so they nicely agreed to split it 50/50 and keep looking for more.
I gave a 50 round box or two of .22 to my LGS to hand out to needy folks as they felt best.
I donated some rounds to folks who came to the ranges and found there was no ammo at the range store for them to buy to shoot that day etc.

That was a very real issue however and the shortage was felt hard for a bit.

 

[j-moose32]

@j-moose32, Maybe Im over simplifying things, But you your guns are dead nut reliable, and you can shoot them with lifesaving confidence, why switch just because " everyone else is".
AS a LEO, you"ve fired 1000"s of rounds with it, and trust it with your life. What's better than that?

I see your point but I think that if you close your mind off to new/ different / better things just because that’s the way you’ve “always done it” then you already lost

And as far as my Pd weapon... 1000s too many rounds and have had hard part failures. Long overdue for new weapons but like everywhere... money is more important than training and Equiptment