This could have ended badly

[D Miller]

Went shooting with JFComfort yesterday and on my 4th shot the bolt was stuck. Very stuck, enough so that it took some careful coaxing with a wooden 2x4 to get the bolt up and back. Not only was the case pictured above stuck in the chamber but it was also firmly stuck to the bolt face. The primer pocket is about as large as a Wolf berdan primer.

Back ground info and other facts:

Virgin Hornady 6.5creedmoor brass
139gr scenar
H41.6 H4350

-That round impacted less than 1" from where the previous rounds landed at 100y.
-all other rounds that day fired properly from the same batch.
-proper powder type was used, there is no pistol powder anywhere in my house.
-loaded on a single stage RBCS rock chucker, not a progressive.
-Powder dispensed from a chargemaster.
-Each round is charged, powder is hand pored and bullet seated before moving on to the next so a very light or heavy charge <span style="font-weight: bold">should</span> have been noticed.

The general consensus from the local guys is a light load, what do you guys think?

Regardless of what happened I was lucky that my equipment wasn't damaged and I had on my polycarbonate glasses as a last line of defense.

 

[2Shots]

Re: This could have ended badly

Silly question, this round didn't get tumbled or vibrate polished after loading did it?

 

[D Miller]

Re: This could have ended badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Silly question, this round didn't get tumbled or vibrate polished after loading did it? </div></div>

No it did not.

 

[former naval person]

Re: This could have ended badly

Caliber?

 

[D Miller]

Re: This could have ended badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Caliber? </div></div>
damn, i knew i forgot something.

6.5Creedmoor

 

[bohem]

Re: This could have ended badly

Is there fluorescent lighting or a cell phone(s) in the room near the chargemaster?

I had an electronic powder dispenser F up a bunch of loads on me unpredictably because a cell phone and fluorescents can screw up the electronics in some of the machines, including chargemasters.

Did you change primer brands, powder lots, or alter seating depth (shorter) or radically longer that you jammed it into the lands?

This isn't a particularly hot load for a 139 in the 6.5 CM.

I did have some brass from an early lot of 6.5CM production that was inconsistent and would occasionally just sneeze after 2-3 reloads. I'm running soft loads as well, 41.9gr of H4350 under a 140 Amax.

I scrapped that lot of 91pcs (all that was left) and haven't had an issue since.

 

[turbo54]

Re: This could have ended badly

I disagree with the "light load" concept. The bullet wouldnt have still basically gone to the same POI if it were a light load detonation. My opinion is either a simple overcharge or the wrong bullet....maybe heavier, maybe slightly oversize.

Glad you and your equipment is ok. I recently had a wakeup call. I pulled the trigger and got a click. I was at the square range where I single load cartridges, so I figured I hadn't actually loaded a new cartridge. I pulled the bolt back and shucked out a spent case...so I then made the new assumption that I had fired, got distracted, and had not loaded a new cartridge, but had recocked the rifle. When I attempted to actually liad a new round, the bolt wouldn't go into battery...luckily, not even close! Pulled the bolt out, and YEP! there was a squib stuck in the throat - obviously I didn't charge that case.

If that squib had gone deeper down the bore, I wouldn't have given the situation a second thought, and I would have touched off another round, blowing my gun and maybe myself up. Lucky!

 

[2Shots]

Re: This could have ended badly

Lots of us shoot that and hotter in a 6.5. I have no idea, I have shot up to 44.5 with a 142smk. Should have worked.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: This could have ended badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Silly question, </div></div>

why the fuck is that a silly question ?

something went wrong , i would not say it was a light load so i'd disagree with the general concensus. Perhaps you got something in there prior to firing , piece of brass maybe... a burr or something... i doubt it but maybe

maybe the bullet was "out of spec" , maybe the bullet body was oversized, that would build up allot of pressure even it was only .002 over. I wouldn't know but i've fired bullets that were .002 smaller and the underpressure that resulted was significant.

hey can you check the case capacity in water of that particular case and compare it to your other cases. ( your going to have to plug up the primer hole)... im just curious.

what was your coal ?

i'd even spilt that case inhalf and examine the inside , look for any deformations on the inside... probably take some outside measurments first.

it's not like you peirced a primer once on a load that typically doesn't do that , you have some serious overpressure marks , like the 80,000 psi type. How can that be a light load , or nothing.

 

[2Shots]

Re: This could have ended badly

Most reloaders have no idea if you tumble or vibrate a loaded round you can break the powder down and make the burn rate go off the charts, that's why I prefaced that with silly question. I doubt you are going to figure this one out. But if he overcharged the case, the bullet pushed itself out and he jambed it into the lands? possible?

 

[D Miller]

Re: This could have ended badly

The light in the reloading room is an old fashion incandescent and my old Nextel phone gave the chargaster fits but current phone hasn't noticeably affected it in the last 1.5 years.

Unless one of the Lapua rounds was out of spec theres no way a larger bullet got loaded. My next closest bullet is the 7mm 180gr hybrids and those wont fit at all.

All rounds were mag fed so it was under 2.90 oal. 2.82 is the norm.

I also had a bum batch of brass that crapped out after 2-3 firings but that was over a year ago.


I have fired over 5k rounds with this load and this is the fist of this kind.

 

[turbo54]

Re: This could have ended badly

Just throwing ideas around...

A stainless pin from tumbling somewhere in the system?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Re: This could have ended badly

Could it possibly be that the round was not trimmed properly and was too long?

The only other thing I could think of would be a .270 bullet getting in to the mix, but you say your next size is 7mm and I don't think Lapua makes a .270 bullet, so it would take some outrageous coincidences for that to happen.

 

[D Miller]

Re: This could have ended badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just throwing ideas around...

A stainless pin from tumbling somewhere in the system? </div></div>

I thought about that one for a second too except it was virgin brass. A primer with a SS pin stuck behind it will not chamber in my rifle... dont ask how i know

All cases were run through the giruad trimmer prior to loading. I dont own any 6.8/270s. Only shoot 6.5creed, 7 Saum and 50bmg


Thanks for the repls.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: This could have ended badly

I have been trying to get my mind around this one and everytime I think I'm on to something another fact negates it. I really think it has something to do with a bullet that was slightly out of spec.

 

[bohem]

Re: This could have ended badly

Like a couple others have suggested, I suspect that you got a bullet which was out of spec. I've had a few Hornady Amax that the tips were loose/missing from.

When I checked them base to ogive the bullets had much "shorter" noses and subsequently longer base to ogive lengths. It appears that the final nose shape stage wasn't run and they made for scrap.

I tried to shoot a few and they sneezed cases in a 260 Rem that was only shooting 42gr of H4350 under a 123 Amax.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most reloaders have no idea if you tumble or vibrate a loaded round you can break the powder down and make the burn rate go off the charts, that's why I prefaced that with silly question. </div></div>

Lots of people are "aware of this" though many have realized after reading the extensive testing performed by several guys that it's an old wives tale.

This myth has been debunked with testing on several types of powders over extended tumble times (with some ammo being tumbled for more than a week).

I tumble my stuff all the time and never get issues. So do a number of factory ammo producers. I know Hornady does it, I've found corncob dust and particles stuck in hollow points, OTM rifle bullets, and cannelure grooves.

 

[gau17]

Re: This could have ended badly

Maybe the Charge Master dumped more than expected and you didn't catch it prior to removing the pan????

Can I see a picture of the neck?

 

[Ballistic308]

Re: This could have ended badly

Have you weighed the brass? Maybe it <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">had</span></span> less case capacity when it was loaded resulting in an over preasure. This would really only be an issue if you were running a near max load.

I bought some winchester brass and all of them had a case weight of 165 grains with the exception of 3 out of 50 were at 183 grains. I found out the hard way and had similar result to yours, althought I was able to get my bolt open with several hard hits with my hand.

ETA: Just for clarification, what this means in the cases that weighed 183gn. had MUCH less case capacity, actually it was near 10% less....I never was able to find the primer cup...must had vap-or-rized.

 

[bricktop]

Re: This could have ended badly

Maybe a magnum primer slipped in (at the primer factory)? What kind of primers were you using?

 

[USGUNWORKS]

Re: This could have ended badly

Ive seen that same thaing out of a 308 of mine before. 44gr of vgt. and a 175smk would wad the case head all up in the bolt... I never figured it out.. ditched that lot of Lapua brass and never had an issue.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: This could have ended badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe a magnum primer slipped in (at the primer factory)? What kind of primers were you using?</div></div>

The rounds were loaded with Federal Gold Medal Match 210 large rifle primers.

 

[Iamironman]

Re: This could have ended badly

I thought about this thread today as I was taking some brass out of the tumbler. I'm wondering if there was something inside the case, like tumbling media, that would have taken up case volume causing over pressure in that round.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: This could have ended badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most reloaders have no idea if you tumble or vibrate a loaded round you can break the powder down and make the burn rate go off the charts, that's why I prefaced that with silly question. I doubt you are going to figure this one out. But if he overcharged the case, the bullet pushed itself out and he jambed it into the lands? possible? </div></div>

Actually, this isn't the case. Manufacturers tumble their loaded rounds as a standard rule, that's why they're so nice and shiney looking.

There's a great post over in the reloading section at AR15.com where a fellow ran an experiment tumbling loaded rounds for many, many hours.

He's got pictures of new powder under a very high powered microscope, which was then loaded and tumbled.

At each step (time duration) along the way, he breaks down the rounds and takes more pictures of the powder.

At the end of the experiment, he does a final batch of pictures at 200x (?) magnification and but for some slight smoothing of the edges of whatever kernels he was using, there was no break down in the physical composition of the powder.

It's perfectly safe to tumble loaded rounds for purposes of getting lube off, or making them 'brand spankin' new' looking. I wouldn't tumble them for a year straight, but an hour, or two, no problem.

Think about it, that powder is being delivered from the plant to the packaging place, to the distributor, then to the retailer and then to our homes. Lots of trucks and time involved. Time that's vibrating that stuff like a...well...vibrator!

Chris

 

[fadin'fast]

Re: This could have ended badly

Did you think about calling Hornady or sending them the case with all the specs and information on that round? If it happened to me, I would be interested to get their opinion on what might have caused the problem. Maybe they can shed some light on the cause.

My first thought was a different or over sized bullet also.

On a personal note, I'm glad that your not injured in any way, but having that happen to me I would be concerned about that mishap till a logical answer is found.

 

[Grump]

Re: This could have ended badly

REally, really glad it worked out as well as it did for you.

I propose an alternate theory, based on the data available at this stage.

Bad brass.

Possibly annealed all the way down to the head. Very, very bad ju-ju, that would be. And Hornady brass doesn't seem to be all that hard-headed to begin with anyway (see all the SuperFormance threads).

I don't know their precise methods, machines and process controls, but I can certainly imagine the annealing stage having one piece get stuck in the machinery and getting cooked over, and over, and over again before being knocked loose. And if no human eyes are doing a 100% visual inspection for bluish tint NOT going too far down the case (or those eyes missed that ONE piece of brass), then it's off to the polishing stage and all visible evidence of that manufacturing defect (making a materials defect) would then be obliterated.

Point of impact, I expect, would go down or up for either a severe overload or under-charge, because of recoil dynamics.

Something in the case should result in noticeably higher powder level and/or severely noticeably powder crunching on bullet seating.

Primers in .308 testing have been good for no more than 5,000 CUP differences in pressure. And Federal primers were NOT the lowest-pressure ones either. They were actually the 2nd highest pressure primers (after Winchester). I would expect 6.5 CR results to be similar.

The only other theory I think holds water is the oversize bullet one...or perhaps heavy weight. BUT a heavier bullet should be longer and result in powder crunching. AND BUT an oversize bullet *might* not chamber, depending on how much over and throat/leade condition.

I'd keep a longitudinal half of the case and send the other piece back to Hornady. They need to have a crack at this, in case there is a problem with their processes they have not learned of yet.

Both humans and machines malfunction. Our goal is to minimize if not eliminate both.

Thanks for the sampling of 7mm SAUM at extreme long-range New Year's Eve. I think that was you, right?

 

[Augustus]

Re: This could have ended badly

I had the same thing happen with Winchester brass and a 308' 43.5 gr of varget. It happened several times until I ditched that lot of brass.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: This could have ended badly

The brass sounds like a very likely suspect. I will have to check lot #’s for the brass I have. I almost took Dane out with a bum piece! lol

I was out there on New Years Eve, it was a pleasure shooting with you! Look forward to doing it again soon!

 

[DeeGee]

Re: This could have ended badly

I recently had the same thing happen to me twice within a couple of minutes. The rounds were 6.5x47 Lapua loaded with 38.0 grains of Varget, CCI BR primers, and 123 grain Scenars. I needed a hammer to open the bolt, and it took a fair amount of work to get the cartridge out of the bolt face. On one of the cases the primer hole was greatly enlarged and the primer dropped out. Both look a lot like the photo above.

I hand-weigh the powder on a beam scale, and keep it well within .05 grain of the target weight. If I get disturbed in the process and don't move the funnel to the next case, the case overflows because it can't hold two charges, so I'm confident that the charge was correct.

I was suspecting something wrong in my treatment of the cases. I had just finished trimming, bumping the shoulders back, and neck sizing them. I shot 3 sighters, then my first round for score made a louder bang and landed about 1.5 inches high (at 200 yards). After clearing the problem and a bit of head scratching and discussion, I shot another round. It did the same thing. I ceased using that box of 100 loaded rounds and used another box I had loaded using new unfired brass. I have been planning but not yet had time to sit down with calipers and measure a bunch of that batch to see if I screwed them up.

I had not suspected the bullet. The new cases used the same bullets, and I have fired about 150 of them with no issues.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: This could have ended badly

Wow man! Glad you are okay. I'll be following this to see if there's a final determination to what happened. - Todd

 

[Coletta]

Re: This could have ended badly

I have also had this happen. Funny thing is it has only happened on 6.5 creedmoor for me. I was working a hotter load 43.5-44gr h4350 with 140 vld's. Happened several times. I figured the loads were just too hot.
I do load next to a florescent light with my cell phone near by. It has never been a problem before though

 

[D Miller]

Re: This could have ended badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The brass sounds like a very likely suspect. I will have to check lot #’s for the brass I have. I almost took Dane out with a bum piece! lol

I was out there on New Years Eve, it was a pleasure shooting with you! Look forward to doing it again soon! </div></div>



I will measure the water capacity of the case then slice it in half when i get a chance this weekend.

That will suck if it turns out to be the brass as JFC and i split a 1000 piece order.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: This could have ended badly

My suspicions center around the case neck, either being overly long, or the brass being overly thick, either instance resulting in a bullet that does not release according to plan. The only actual kaboom I ever personally witnessed came down to an overlong case neck, which was subsquently verified by breaking down the remaining unfired rounds from the same batch of handloads.

This taught me the following lessons.

Never assume new brass meets spec. Always mic and prep each new case, then you treat it as trustworthy, and not before.

Whenever a handloaded round does something unexpected, withdraw the rest of the batch from use and label it as suspect until it can be broken down and verified as being in proper spec. The odds of something bad happening a second time are probably several orders of magnitude greater than of it happening at all in the first place.

Langelius' Axiom: If it ain't reliably safe, expect sorrow.

Greg

 

[gau17]

Re: This could have ended badly

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My suspicions center around the case neck, either being overly long, or the brass being overly thick, either instance resulting in a bullet that does not release according to plan. The only actual kaboom I ever personally witnessed came down to an overlong case neck, which was subsquently verified by breaking down the remaining unfired rounds from the same batch of handloads.

This taught me the following lessons.

Never assume new brass meets spec. Always mic and prep each new case, then you treat it as trustworthy, and not before.

Whenever a handloaded round does something unexpected, withdraw the rest of the batch from use and label it as suspect until it can be broken down and verified as being in proper spec. The odds of something bad happening a second time are probably several orders of magnitude greater than of it happening at all in the first place.

Langelius' Axiom: If it ain't reliably safe, expect sorrow.

Greg </div></div>

Thats kinda why I wanted to see pictures of the neck.