This is interesting for PRS rimfire competitors

[DeathBeforeDismount]

My opinion is 2 day .22 matches outside of the finale are dumb. You will spend as much as you will to shoot a 2 day centerfire. The fixed costs are about the same. Not sure why Matt put out that email, other than to justify what they are charging at mkm for matches.

Personally any match over $40 should include food. Pretty much all the west coast matches have food and it's makes you feel like your getting your money's worth. Especially when it's at a club where they don't have to rent the land and all the money is going to them. Stop being lazy/cheap asses, even if it's some burgers or sandwiches. War charges $90 for their matches but there is food and a sweet prize table at end of match so it's worth it.

You have different types of people in this sport. Those who give their time and money to grow the sport and those who use the sport as a source of revenue/income. Something to keep in mind when picking venues or matches.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

And this is why we can’t have nice things, people get greedy and ruin everything.

One of the major reasons I stopped shooting centerfire matches was the match fees started getting a little out of hand for local regional stuff. Now I understand there is a good amount of overhead for some of these places, but I remember not that long ago the match fees included lunch (pizza or something similar) and weren’t more then $40 or so

Inflation. $40 a couple years ago is $60+ today. The cost of food alone has gone up 50-200%. The actual match fee is the cheapest part of shooting a match.

 

[10ring1]

Matches are fun. I will shoot PRS, NRL, MARS, Outlaw whatever but when a major governing body starts raising prices and making it policy for the sake of it then time to call BS.

Agree 100%. What I have noticed from the sport, as is in all competitive sports, each will do or buy whatever it takes to beat the next one. Keeps upping the bar. So the same happens with matches, fees, prizes, etc. Some believe the matches have to keep getting bigger and better to keep interest. The fees go up as well.

...and seems to fit here, back to my complaint a few years ago after losing interest in positional rimfire for these exact reasons. When u go to a match , spend a lot of time, money for ammo, fees, travel, etc just to get absolutely crushed by the 'sponsored' or 'pro' shooters at the match, it's disheartening. It's not about winning at all but if the average shooter goes knowing he is going to spend 'no less than $180' to maybe be in the top 50%, I think this deters the average shooter. Jmo

 

[lash]

This is off topic for the thread, but going to drop it in anyway.

How is it that Rimfire challenge matches keep going when they only charge $20/person? They still have to have targets, stands, paint...

I couldn’t tell you. I pay $30/person just to use the range.

 

[Rob01]

Ya thats it. Knowing how much work goes into setting up a 2 day match justifies the prices to me. Theyve been working at mkm for a month now setting up for vengeance. Renting heavy machines to make better burms, miving steel, cleaning up. Make these matches 100$ and see how fast they disappear. Rimfire is worse 40 people times 25$ is not enough to keep mds motivated especially now that everyone cried about them shooting their own matches.

I know how much work goes into matches. Been shooting them for 20 years and know a lot of people that put them on. Not everywhere has to rent machinery and do all the work you are saying. Especially at known ranges and especially for Rimfire matches we are discussing.

You are missing the point. The PRS is now telling them to charge at least $180 for a two day rimfire match. That’s BS. Should be up to the MD. This isn’t a post about how much work two day centerfire matches take but that the PRS is now telling MDs that they have to charge $180 for a two day rimfire. Doesn’t even say they have to provide anything but a match. That’s BS.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

While I agree alot of these venues need to step up their game, especially at 2 days where a certain level of acomidation is expected; the PRS has no business dictating what MDs charge.

I understand where Matt is coming from and had a similar talk with him a few months the ago about certain prs22 matches being ran like ass ( no zero board, ridiculous course of fire designed by people who don't even shoot, ect). It's probally coming from a good place but it's going to rub alot of people the wrong way.

 

[Rob01]

Exactly! So funny how people who scream freedom at every democratic proposal basically cave when the same thing happens in this sport. Telling a MD that he has to charge a certain amount is them trying to keep their product worth a specific amount. Not about growing the sport or making the match any better for the shooters. The free market should speak and if someone runs a shit match then people won't go and if people run a good match that's worth $180 for a two day match then people will come. Should not be dictated.

 

[drglock]

In rimfire is 2 day matches really a thing other than Nationals. I know me personally if there was a 2 day match less than an hours drive for $100 I still wouldn’t shoot it. I got my fill of 2 day matches in the 18 years I shot USPSA and I’m like everyone else in that I like to win and do now and then but I’m there to have relaxing fun. The only people you need to beat are the 2-3 guys you ride to the match with. That way you can talk shit all the way home and believe me we do

But seriously what’s next them telling MD’s they have to charge $50-$70 for a one day local match.

 

[Rob01]

In rimfire is 2 day matches really a thing other than Nationals. I know me personally if there was a 2 day match less than an hours drive for $100 I still wouldn’t shoot it. I got my fill of 2 day matches in the 18 years I shot USPSA and I’m like everyone else in that I like to win and do now and then but I’m there to have relaxing fun. The only people you need to beat are the 2-3 guys you ride to the match with. That way you can talk shit all the way home and believe me we do

But seriously what’s next them telling MD’s they have to charge $50-$70 for a one day local match.

They are starting to be a thing this year. Will see if it takes off or not.

But to answer your second question, I would think it would depend how this goes. If they can make the MDs do $180 then the slippery slope comes in that they can tell them to do it for one day matches also.

 

[M4orturnate]

I know how much work goes into matches. Been shooting them for 20 years and know a lot of people that put them on. Not everywhere has to rent machinery and do all the work you are saying. Especially at known ranges and especially for Rimfire matches we are discussing.

You are missing the point. The PRS is now telling them to charge at least $180 for a two day rimfire match. That’s BS. Should be up to the MD. This isn’t a post about how much work two day centerfire matches take but that the PRS is now telling MDs that they have to charge $180 for a two day rimfire. Doesn’t even say they have to provide anything but a match. That’s BS.

Youre right. I agree prs or any sanctioning body should not have a say in what mds charge. I dont think the cost will keep people from shooting but i agree with your point.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

TL;DR and the bitching back and forth gets off topic. MY .02 is this: I really don't like a governing body telling me what to do and I've had my share of issues with the PRS. That said, if you haven't run a match before, most of you have NO idea how much time, money, energy, resources it takes to pull off a successful event. I used to bitch (before I started running matches) when club matches hit $50 and 2 days hit $200+. Man oh man did I have to eat crow once I saw the other side of the curtain! I charge $250 for my 2 day centerfire events and barely break even with a considerable loss once time is factored in. And that's ok because I'm not doing this to make money, but to contribute to a sport/hobby that I love. I also feel I should provide food to my guests since they are driving out to my farm and will spend a good chunk of the day here. I also like food when I'm shooting a match because it's less shit for me to pack and worry about. In summary: I prefer the PRS let MDs set their own pricing, but honestly $180 is about as low as one can reasonably charge anyway unless they want to take away the expected food, prize table, etc.

 

[Rob01]

Food isn’t needed and prize table isn’t bought most of the time and comes from donations.

 

[woogie_man]

The matches should be fun, and a great way to go out and socialize with like minded people. The fact that there is a chance to win a little cash if you do well is a bonus, but shouldn't be dictating how people go to matches. Have seen things like this in other hobbies and they all have ended the same way..... struggling to get new people in as the ones at the top have no competition and always walk away with the money. You want to discourage people from showing up, or starting new, this is a good way of doing it.

Honestly the money should be going directly to the MD. The time and effort they put into many of these matches can be quite a bit. Then take in their costs and everything else, it can get expensive.

To many people anymore NEED that big trophy or plaque with their name on it. It is honestly quite sad as it sucks all the fun out of a match.

 

[M4orturnate]

TL;DR and the bitching back and forth gets off topic. MY .02 is this: I really don't like a governing body telling me what to do and I've had my share of issues with the PRS. That said, if you haven't run a match before, most of you have NO idea how much time, money, energy, resources it takes to pull off a successful event. I used to bitch (before I started running matches) when club matches hit $50 and 2 days hit $200+. Man oh man did I have to eat crow once I saw the other side of the curtain! I charge $250 for my 2 day centerfire events and barely break even with a considerable loss once time is factored in. And that's ok because I'm not doing this to make money, but to contribute to a sport/hobby that I love. I also feel I should provide food to my guests since they are driving out to my farm and will spend a good chunk of the day here. I also like food when I'm shooting a match because it's less shit for me to pack and worry about. In summary: I prefer the PRS let MDs set their own pricing, but honestly $180 is about as low as one can reasonably charge anyway unless they want to take away the expected food, prize table, etc.

Id love matches to be cheaper especially with the cost of ammo, travel, lodging, etc. But how long are guys like you going to do it out of the goodness of your heart. If the model is profitable theres more incentive not only to keep them going but improve equipment. All in all it just entertainment and think about how much other hobbies cost( concert, sports game, fishing). I want the md to make enough money that they want me to have the best damn time i can while shooting like shit.

 

[Cowpokey]

All in all it just entertainment and think about how much other hobbies cost( concert, sports game, fishing). I want the md to make enough money that they want me to have the best damn time i can while shooting like shit.

Hey, leave fishing out of it...concert and sports game tickets are stupid, but fishing is good for the soul.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Id love matches to be cheaper especially with the cost of ammo, travel, lodging, etc. But how long are guys like you going to do it out of the goodness of your heart. If the model is profitable theres more incentive not only to keep them going but improve equipment. All in all it just entertainment and think about how much other hobbies cost( concert, sports game, fishing). I want the md to make enough money that they want me to have the best damn time i can while shooting like shit.

I don't want to speak for the Munns, But they happen to own the land and have made an incredible shooting facility on their land. Have never been to a match where The MD's put more effort into making sure everyone is taken care of and having a good time. When its hot out they are running around in UTV's handing out pop sickles, neck coolers and all kinds of stuff to help people stay more comfortable. When its cold out they bring out hot soup and that kind of stuff just raises the morale of everyone and is super appreciated. They have a die hard following for a reason and people will drive 3, 5, 7 hours to shoot their one days. Not many venues can claim that. They are also very good shooters and it shows when they design their courses of fire. There is always something new, fun , funny and challenging that keeps people coming back for more. I would bet they Put WAY more back into the matches and facility than they take in at any 1 or 2 day match.

If you want to support the MD's, go shoot their matches. Show up, have a good attitude and have fun. Helping to fill up their matches and at least help them break even on costs and make them feel like all their hard work is appreciated probably goes a long way. Try to thank them every chance you get and remind them how much you appreciate them hosting and how much you enjoy shooting their matches.

Also, make sure you thank the sponsors. A ton of work goes into asking and requesting these companies donate and support the matches. Most MD's I have talked to, really don't like doing this. Its hard work and not fun to ask people to send you free stuff and makes alot of people uncomfortable. Sending them an email after the match and tell them how great the match and how much you appreicate them supporting with their gear or certs is going to make them want to keep supporting the matches and maybe prioritize prizes to those venues where people really show some appreciation.

 

[M4orturnate]

Hey, leave fishing out of it...concert and sports game tickets are stupid, but fishing is good for the soul.

I agree but its way cheaper just to buy fish lol.

 

[Cowpokey]

I agree but its way cheaper just to buy fish lol.

the fish I catch are FREE Fishing gear is just part of the hobby expense. Teehee. That $900 fly rod, $500 reel, just part of the "experience".

 

[Cowpokey]

The $250 fly tying vise, way over priced feathers I bought at a store, hooks, thread, blah blah blah...you can't replace that with a fillet you picked up at the seafood counter...It will never taste as good as the ridiculous amount of money I spent to catch a 12" farm raised stocked rainbow trout caught in the local stream!

Is that enough sarcasm for the thead? I could go on. We spend a stupid amount of money to have a good time. There will never be any stories about going to the deli.

 

[b6graham]

The $250 fly tying vise, way over priced feathers I bought at a store, hooks, thread, blah blah blah...you can't replace that with a fillet you picked up at the seafood counter...It will never taste as good as the ridiculous amount of money I spent to catch a 12" farm raised stocked rainbow trout you caught in the local stream!

Is that enough sarcasm for the thead? I could go on. We spend a stupid amount of money to have a good time. There will never be any stories about going to the deli.

you clearly need to find some deli's in Boston then

 

[Cowpokey]

you clearly need to find some deli's in Boston then

Too north east. I'd much rather spend the rest of my life in Alaska. Lots of crazy hippies up there, but I can deal with them. For now I'll stay in Maryland, more crazies here than you can shake a stick at; but where we live, actually not bad...solid red 2A sanctuary county.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

Food isn’t needed and prize table isn’t bought most of the time and comes from donations.

Agreed food isn't needed, and I shoot a couple matches a year that don't bother with it. As long as that is clearly stated up front I'm good with it. I just prefer to have food at the match so I don't have to worry about packing food when I wake up at 4:30 for the drive. And yes prize tables generally are covered by donations, but they are a TON of work for guys who aren't connected in the industry, and it can be stressful/annoying begging for free stuff. I agree with you on some points, simple matches can have smaller entry fees. But the ones with all the bells and whistles will cost more. Ideally all regions would have a variety to choose from. We run rimfire, centerfire club, and centerfire national, and attend a variety of affiliated and outlaw matches in the PNW. It's interesting because we see some of the same shooters at all of the matches, and others that will only shoot a certain type.

 

[Rob01]

Agreed food isn't needed, and I shoot a couple matches a year that don't bother with it. As long as that is clearly stated up front I'm good with it. I just prefer to have food at the match so I don't have to worry about packing food when I wake up at 4:30 for the drive. And yes prize tables generally are covered by donations, but they are a TON of work for guys who aren't connected in the industry, and it can be stressful/annoying begging for free stuff. I agree with you on some points, simple matches can have smaller entry fees. But the ones with all the bells and whistles will cost more. Ideally all regions would have a variety to choose from. We run rimfire, centerfire club, and centerfire national, and attend a variety of affiliated and outlaw matches in the PNW. It's interesting because we see some of the same shooters at all of the matches, and others that will only shoot a certain type.

Yeah I usually leave about 430am for matches too and got it all packed up the night before and ready to go. Not that hard to throw some snacks in the car or pack to have for the day.

And if it’s a PRS sanctioned match as we are discussing the PRS is supposed to be handling donations for prize tables so there should be no stress for a MD or begging. That said not many .22 matches have prize tables at non finale matches so another thing that’s really not an issue.

All that said if the PRS wants to start mandating charging a minimum of $180 then they better step up their game to what the PRS is bringing to the table. If not then they should leave cost charged to the MD. That is the issue at hand.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Yeah I usually leave about 430am for matches too and got it all packed up the night before and ready to go. Not that hard to throw some snacks in the car or pack to have for the day.

And if it’s a PRS sanctioned match as we are discussing the PRS is supposed to be handling donations for prize tables so there should be no stress for a MD or begging. That said not many .22 matches have prize tables at non finale matches so another thing that’s really not an issue.

All that said if the PRS wants to start mandating charging a minimum of $180 then they better step up their game to what the PRS is bringing to the table. If not then they should leave cost charged to the MD. That is the issue at hand.

Maybe you are thinking of NRL. From what I understand, PRS does very little as far as national match sponsorship for the 2 days. Its up to the MD's to go out and source the prizes. One of the reasons there is a big disparity between match prize tables. You even see it with Nightforce. Some matches they give a 40% cert for winning the skills stage, other matches they give out a scope.

This has been one of the major gripes with PRS for years. They do little to support the individual matches and MD's. They put out requirements (Like GG trophies, Trophies for top semi/am/mkm, ect) that cost the MD's money but do little to support the events. They just want their membership fees and $3 per shooter (oh and big sponsorship/advertisement dollars).

 

[b6graham]

Maybe you are thinking of NRL. From what I understand, PRS does very little as far as national match sponsorship for the 2 days. Its up to the MD's to go out and source the prizes. One of the reasons there is a big disparity between match prize tables. You even see it with Nightforce. Some matches they give a 40% cert for winning the skills stage, other matches they give out a scope.

This has been one of the major gripes with PRS for years. They do little to support the individual matches and MD's. They put out requirements (Like GG trophies, Trophies for top semi/am/mkm, ect) that cost the MD's money but do little to support the events. They just want their membership fees and $3 per shooter (oh and big sponsorship/advertisement dollars).

PRS has 100% sent prize packages to 2 day matches and regional finales

 

[lead ƒarmer]

To clarify, yes the PRS does send prize table packages to 2 day events. They work with industry partners to put together a bunch of certificates and a few physical items. But even they admit it’s just a starting point, if you want a decent prize table you must put in a lot of effort on your own to make it happen. Not bashing the PRS here, I sincerely appreciate their help and contribution to get things rolling. I’m just letting everyone know how much goes on behind the scenes and many don’t realize.

 

[Rob01]

Maybe you are thinking of NRL. From what I understand, PRS does very little as far as national match sponsorship for the 2 days. Its up to the MD's to go out and source the prizes. One of the reasons there is a big disparity between match prize tables. You even see it with Nightforce. Some matches they give a 40% cert for winning the skills stage, other matches they give out a scope.

This has been one of the major gripes with PRS for years. They do little to support the individual matches and MD's. They put out requirements (Like GG trophies, Trophies for top semi/am/mkm, ect) that cost the MD's money but do little to support the events. They just want their membership fees and $3 per shooter (oh and big sponsorship/advertisement dollars).

As mentioned I thought the PRS did something because if they didn’t then what the hell are they there for besides keeping scores and taking money! Lol

That’s what always confused me by why MDs bend over so fast for the PRS. The MDs have the upper hand as they have the matches, the venues, the shooters etc. if they all told the PRS to fuck off then what would happen? They would still hold matches. The little bit of advertisement from the PRS worth that much? Maybe it’s because I come from a time before the PRS and shot matches all over the country without the PRS that I think this and some people, not saying you, don’t get that and think the PRS made this sport. Oh well. Will be up to the MDs how they want to roll.

 

[King_beardsly]

you clearly need to find some deli's in Boston then

or any bodega in NYC

 

[rookie7]

I know how much work goes into matches. Been shooting them for 20 years and know a lot of people that put them on. Not everywhere has to rent machinery and do all the work you are saying. Especially at known ranges and especially for Rimfire matches we are discussing.

You are missing the point. The PRS is now telling them to charge at least $180 for a two day rimfire match. That’s BS. Should be up to the MD. This isn’t a post about how much work two day centerfire matches take but that the PRS is now telling MDs that they have to charge $180 for a two day rimfire. Doesn’t even say they have to provide anything but a match. That’s BS.

It’s all about money, and anytime that gets involved we know what will happen. History has countless lessons where the almighty $$$$ ruined everything except for a select few.

Rob01 is right - this is complete BS!

Rimfire is supposed to be the open gateway for all to enjoy and experience. At $180? Greed.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

On one hand 180 is cheap as shit for a 2 day match when you factor it all in. Some of you have no fucking idea what this stuff costs because you don't compete.

On the other hand its like the gov telling Safeway they have to charge $4 / gallon of milk. It may cost $5 at market but the gov still doesn't have a right to dictate prices.

Trying to price fix matches is not good optics.

 

[kthomas]

Land use, insurance, food, targets, paying/comping ROs, any swag given away,ect. There is ALOT involved in doing a 2 day match. Most people have no fucking idea how much work and coordination is involved.

I think this is what the organization (PRS in this case) should be in charge of.

The PRS organization should be doing everything in their power to support and grow matches, and to make the sport more accessible and affordable to shooters.

This would include:

- Building a network of trained RO's, and providing training (or training packages to be used by MD's) to be used to train any prospective volunteer RO's
- Providing insurance for each venue
- Target packages and target upgrades over the years
- Working with large hospitality companies to provide discount packages for shooters in areas around/close to match venues on match weekends
- Curate the collective knowledge of MD's and provide resources/packages to new MD's on how to run a match, with FAQ and lessons learned gleaned from the collective knowledge of MD's.
- Provide media/social media services to promote matches, and provide photography/videography services
- Provide resources for newer shooters wanting to get in the sport - FAQ, what a match is like, what gear is required and recommended, what some typical stages look like and how to shoot them, etc.
- Provide tablets/ipads and spotting scopes/equipment for use by RO's
- Actively working to find more venues throughout the country

Right now it seems like the PRS organization essentially is just an over glorified score keeper for the series. The entire FAQ section of the PRS website is just dedicate to scoring. It appears to me that the MD's are responsible for all the work associated in setting up a match, with limited to no support from the series. There is huge opportunity for the PRS as an organization to make it easier to setup a match, and easier as a competitor to attend. But from my perspective as a shooter, I don't see this happening.

To be fair, I'm not an MD nor have I ever been one. Perhaps the support provided to MD's is bigger than what my perspective is, and maybe they are already doing some of what's suggested above. But I can't imagine that there isn't a lot of things the PRS could be doing to grow the sport and make matches more accessible and easier to setup.

 

[Rob01]

Your second to last paragraph seems to have hit it but if you say that the minions come out and start hammering you as a hater but when the emperer has no clothes got to be someone to say it. Usually they bring up "But you get discounts too" which is nice but not everyone needs those all the time.

The PRS is on it's 5th or 6th owner in 11 years. That right there says something. Seems like a game of hot potato. LOL But again this is more about them trying to set match price minimums no matter what the MD who is running the match says. The MDs need to stand up to this and say no and they need to hear from the shooters about it too.

 

[kthomas]

Your second to last paragraph seems to have hit it but if you say that the minions come out and start hammering you as a hater but when the emperer has no clothes got to be someone to say it. Usually they bring up "But you get discounts too" which is nice but not everyone needs those all the time.

The PRS is on it's 5th or 6th owner in 11 years. That right there says something. Seems like a game of hot potato. LOL But again this is more about them trying to set match price minimums no matter what the MD who is running the match says. The MDs need to stand up to this and say no and they need to hear from the shooters about it too.

The organization just doesn't seem to do anything meaningful to grow the sport. It's all basically put on the shoulders of the MD's, who seemingly get little to no support.

I've been shooting PRS matches since about ~2013 or so (though took a a few year hiatus until recently), and honestly as a shooter they haven't done anything to make the sport more accessible. They also haven't seemingly made it any easier for MD's to host/direct matches.

I'll give the new owners the benefit of the doubt. They've been at it for a very short period of time, and it takes time to implement meaningful changes. They may be working on things behind the scenes to improve the organization and the sport. The previous owners haven't done much IMO in this regard, and historically as an organization the PRS has really failed at what should be its core objectives.

While its not rocket science, I know that it's not easy to do what some of us are asking. But it doesn't even seem like they are trying (again, benefit of the doubt to the new owners, I'll withhold judgement), and it seems like as an organization the PRS is a bit lost in what its objectives and core values should be.

 

[lash]

From a money perspective, (my shooting buddy has 3 kids so to shoot together I have to be conscience of it) 2 days are not where it’s at. You pay $180 for 1 score.. Of you could do it.. you would be better off having two 1 day matches.. and charge $40 for each day.. 2 scores.. $80.. but, I am going to guess PRS only allows 1 match per month? To Rob’s main point, the crime if you will is PRS making people charge $180.. The craziest props you will shoot is OBX in my opinion and they charge the least.. its $10 or $20.. I know not everyone can do that my point is there is no way those guys would be able to charge you $180 morally, to shoot there 2 days..They aren’t built that way..
I also believe if your going to charge me $180 you should provided RO’s.. skip lunches and the shirt for all I care..That is why Frontline (in my area) is enjoyed by so many shooters.. well it’s also just a great place to shoot but the RO’s make it so much better.

I should clear up a couple misunderstandings.
At this time, PRS does not dictate how many nor how often an MD can hold a match. With regards to the two day matches, they are requiring ROs and are requiring that an MD show/ explain how those ROs will be provided and compensated.

As I’ve already mentioned, I do not agree with this price fixing either, though it personally affects me in no way.

Oh, as far as junior shooters go, I started something a few years ago that has become normal here in central Florida. All juniors always shoot my matches for free. That’s my small contribution to the future of the shooting sports.

 

[Lastsaint21]

I should clear up a couple misunderstandings.
At this time, PRS does not dictate how many nor how often an MD can hold a match. With regards to the two day matches, they are requiring ROs and are requiring that an MD show/ explain how those ROs will be provided and compensated.

As I’ve already mentioned, I do not agree with this price fixing either, though it personally affects me in no way.

Oh, as far as junior shooters go, I started something a few years ago that has become normal here in central Florida. All juniors always shoot my matches for free. That’s my small contribution to the future of the shooting sports.

Thanks for clearing that up! I could see people liking 2 1 day matches over 1 two match.. for more reasons than just the scores, the time commitment as well. As with everything, there are fans of both I am sure

 

[12Bravo20]

That is another thing I will have to factor in before deciding to try my hand at competing. I am disabled and on a fixed income.

 

[lash]

That is another thing I will have to factor in before deciding to try my hand at competing. I am disabled and on a fixed income.

Do look around in your local area for the local one day matches. They tend to be much less expensive than that. More like $20-50, depending upon where you are located. Unless you either want to compete in the regionals or just want to attend a two day match, there is no reason that you would ever have to pay this much. Nor even attend one.

 

[Lightning8]

Timely. Thread my local PRS/PRS22 site mentioned a 2 day PRS22 match. Not sure what turnout would be for 2 day PRS22 match at $180ish.

 

[RedDawn]

Timely. Thread my local PRS/PRS22 site mentioned a 2 day PRS22 match. Not sure what turnout would be for 2 day PRS22 match at $180ish.

There are alot of the centerfire shooters staying an extra day to shoot rimfire on Sun for more positional practice there. I doubt there’s a big turnout for a 2 day rimfire match. Just my opinion. I would prefer to shoot 2 different matches at $40 in opposite sides of the state and sleep at home before I did a single 2 day match $180 outside of regionals or finals

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Black bear just had or is having a 2 day rimfire match. I am sure lots of people will shoot it but I have zero desire to get the same points as you would get from spending 1/10th the money and half the time to shoot.

Precision Rifle Series - Black Bear Memorial - 2 Day - May 20...

The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.

www.precisionrifleseries.com

 

[MajorD]

If you aren't shooting matches that hand out trophies you aren't really shooting matches worth a shit. This is a different level of competition.

Don’t agree. I have been shooting competitively since the late 1970’s. While I have participated in ( and actually won) some national level competitions, the reason to shoot is the shooting and enjoyment of it.
in the end you compete against yourself.
if the reason you are shooting is for prizes trophies and prize payouts/ swag my belief is your heart and mind are not in the right place.
for a high visibility match say a regional level or national level competition yes there are lots of expenses involved and all those little things required to make a match happen do add up, and I can understand needed a fairly hefty match fee.

I think the majority of people shoot club level matches, where the burden of costs involved are covered by the club.
targets, infrastructure ,scoring implements etc are not a direct cost to the match director.
in most shooting clubs I have been a member, the only thing that was really needed to run a match was someone raising a hand and volunteering to run it, and then if there were expenses involved ( targets, paint whatever) they simply submitted receipts to the club for reimbursement.

i shot at a lot of clubs for club level events where the entry fee was 5 or 10 dollars, back in the 1980’s, and those clubs only raised entry fees to 15 or 20 in the last 5 years or so.

looking at say a standard nrl22 match cof plus bonus stages, if the match is hosted at a premier club location with lots of amenities and a big prize table, or some lowly sportsman’s club with an out house, doesn’t change the fact I am going to put maximal effort into my performance and see if I can beat my score from last match.
while I am pretty fortunate in my career and prosperity, a 200 dollar match really doesn’t offer me anything related to the shooting different than the 20-50 dollar match, so I don’t see a point in spending more money to do the same thing.

I ran a lot of club level matches in years past, and all the club cared about was breaking even, a profit was a bonus. If a match didn’t have enough participation to at least break even, then it might be discontinued .

i do understand every situation is different, and if a match director has to basically create an event from scratch ( renting land/range space, arranging for all associated infrastructure from the bottom up, it could get costly.

my answer is not charge more but find a cheaper way to do it.

 

[kthomas]

Don’t agree. I have been shooting competitively since the late 1970’s. While I have participated in ( and actually won) some national level competitions, the reason to shoot is the shooting and enjoyment of it.
in the end you compete against yourself.
if the reason you are shooting is for prizes trophies and prize payouts/ swag my belief is your heart and mind are not in the right place.
for a high visibility match say a regional level or national level competition yes there are lots of expenses involved and all those little things required to make a match happen do add up, and I can understand needed a fairly hefty match fee.

I think the majority of people shoot club level matches, where the burden of costs involved are covered by the club.
targets, infrastructure ,scoring implements etc are not a direct cost to the match director.
in most shooting clubs I have been a member, the only thing that was really needed to run a match was someone raising a hand and volunteering to run it, and then if there were expenses involved ( targets, paint whatever) they simply submitted receipts to the club for reimbursement.

i shot at a lot of clubs for club level events where the entry fee was 5 or 10 dollars, back in the 1980’s, and those clubs only raised entry fees to 15 or 20 in the last 5 years or so.

looking at say a standard nrl22 match cof plus bonus stages, if the match is hosted at a premier club location with lots of amenities and a big prize table, or some lowly sportsman’s club with an out house, doesn’t change the fact I am going to put maximal effort into my performance and see if I can beat my score from last match.
while I am pretty fortunate in my career and prosperity, a 200 dollar match really doesn’t offer me anything related to the shooting different than the 20-50 dollar match, so I don’t see a point in spending more money to do the same thing.

I ran a lot of club level matches in years past, and all the club cared about was breaking even, a profit was a bonus. If a match didn’t have enough participation to at least break even, then it might be discontinued .

i do understand every situation is different, and if a match director has to basically create an event from scratch ( renting land/range space, arranging for all associated infrastructure from the bottom up, it could get costly.

my answer is not charge more but find a cheaper way to do it.

Increasing the cost of matches is only introducing more barriers to the sport.

A weekend of shooting a match is getting very expensive. Between match fees, travel costs, food & lodging costs, cost of ammo, etc., people are paying thousands to shoot a weekend match. That's not sustainable, and increasing the barrier of entry to the sport is not going to grow it.

I agree, that as an organization, the PRS needs to be looking at reducing barriers, not increasing them. The sport needs to become more affordable and accessible, not less so.

There will always be people willing to pay $200 in match fees. But there's a lot of people that aren't, and as you state, a $200 match doesn't really offer a much better (if any) experience than a $20 one. I would prefer it if the PRS was working towards creating more matches and venues and making it more affordable for shooters to attend matches. They may have to get creative to do so, but this should be their mission.

 

[Rob01]

Black bear just had or is having a 2 day rimfire match. I am sure lots of people will shoot it but I have zero desire to get the same points as you would get from spending 1/10th the money and half the time to shoot.

Precision Rifle Series - Black Bear Memorial - 2 Day - May 20...

The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.

www.precisionrifleseries.com

Having. It's the weekend of May 20th. I am going to try it out. Will see if the two day rimfire is worth it over a one day.

 

[Lightning8]

Increasing the cost of matches is only introducing more barriers to the sport.

A weekend of shooting a match is getting very expensive. Between match fees, travel costs, food & lodging costs, cost of ammo, etc., people are paying thousands to shoot a weekend match. That's not sustainable, and increasing the barrier of entry to the sport is not going to grow it.

I agree, that as an organization, the PRS needs to be looking at reducing barriers, not increasing them. The sport needs to become more affordable and accessible, not less so.

There will always be people willing to pay $200 in match fees. But there's a lot of people that aren't, and as you state, a $200 match doesn't really offer a much better (if any) experience than a $20 one. I would prefer it if the PRS was working towards creating more matches and venues and making it more affordable for shooters to attend matches. They may have to get creative to do so, but this should be their mission.

I know some competitors who have stopped shooting centerfire events and only compete in PRS22 or other "precision" 22 events to reduce the costs (expensive 22 ammo still cheaper than centerfire plus tired of chasing components). If more PRS22 events become available will be interesting to see the turnouts.

 

[MajorD]

My club hosts a few multi day uspsa type matches every year, and they are a big contributor to our club treasury in regards to the match fees generated. However, the MD, RO’S and all associated personnel running the match are volunteers willing to do it- “the love of the game“ people, let’s say. If you are not in it for the love of the game, I am not sure what the point of it all is.
some of these matches do cost in the territory of $200 for a match fee, but may be as long as five days.
the club tracks all the expenses related to the match prizes trophies food vendors extra porta potties etc.
these extra expense do get charged to the “match” but these events turn a profit for the club, as much as 50 grand. No individual profits from running the match or volunteering to help.

it has been implied in these posts that being a match director is some sort of paid position - no where I have ever shot!

 

[MajorD]

KT Thomas well put.
nrl started as supposedly a fun affordable entry level introduction to competitive shooting to attract more people to shooting sports, the nrl website even says so.
some of the points they make is a 100 yard and in match is capable of being run at a lot of clubs that have limited space ( when I lived in the northeast almost every semi rural or rural town had a gun club with a 100 yard range) and the prop and target arrays cost is fairly minimal.
however, then they charge ( last time I looked anyway) $70 bucks for annual membership? I never bothered joining,
you are not getting much for the $70. The Monthly COF is developed by a volunteer match director, the website is not the easiest to navigate, some of the “news” stories on the site are over a year old.
the only thing the membership gets you really is to be in the points race for prizes and invites to the nationals, and as I don’t see myself being good enough to be national match competitive ( there was a time in my youth in a galaxy far far away, but at my age I think that ship has sailed) and am at the point in my life both personally and as it relates to shooting, that I don’t need more stuff, even if it might be pretty nice stuff.
I have always be a sort of minimalist when it comes to equipment, I am still using a shooting mat that was gifted to me in the early 1980’s.
what I have seen happen in every shooting competition venue I have participated in ( and there have been a lot in the last 40 or so years- yes I am a greybeard) is something starts humble and simple, become popular ( because of that humility and simplicity) then the ultra competitive people and big sanctioning bodies get involved, and basically ruin it. It becomes an outlet for a few top shooters to promote expensive products and gain sponsorships from various commercial sources, and start discouraging new shooters.
while the shooter with limited resources and budget can still be competitive and win, it becomes an uphill battle against the guy/girl who gets gun ammo match fees and travel expenses at least partial defrayed by sponsors.
when I was on a military team even I saw the same thing. The teams from units that could throw more resources at the team got more funds for ammo,practice, travel etc. other units didn’t support teams as well, and I recall traveling to matches on unpaid orders, paying for all travel expenses out of pocket, with loaner guns,etc.
i did still beat some of those well supported shooters and teams, and it was pretty satisfying!
and I did it because I love competitive shooting, not because there was some other secondary gain involved

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Don’t agree. I have been shooting competitively since the late 1970’s. While I have participated in ( and actually won) some national level competitions, the reason to shoot is the shooting and enjoyment of it.
in the end you compete against yourself.
if the reason you are shooting is for prizes trophies and prize payouts/ swag my belief is your heart and mind are not in the right place.
for a high visibility match say a regional level or national level competition yes there are lots of expenses involved and all those little things required to make a match happen do add up, and I can understand needed a fairly hefty match fee.

I think the majority of people shoot club level matches, where the burden of costs involved are covered by the club.
targets, infrastructure ,scoring implements etc are not a direct cost to the match director.
in most shooting clubs I have been a member, the only thing that was really needed to run a match was someone raising a hand and volunteering to run it, and then if there were expenses involved ( targets, paint whatever) they simply submitted receipts to the club for reimbursement.

i shot at a lot of clubs for club level events where the entry fee was 5 or 10 dollars, back in the 1980’s, and those clubs only raised entry fees to 15 or 20 in the last 5 years or so.

looking at say a standard nrl22 match cof plus bonus stages, if the match is hosted at a premier club location with lots of amenities and a big prize table, or some lowly sportsman’s club with an out house, doesn’t change the fact I am going to put maximal effort into my performance and see if I can beat my score from last match.
while I am pretty fortunate in my career and prosperity, a 200 dollar match really doesn’t offer me anything related to the shooting different than the 20-50 dollar match, so I don’t see a point in spending more money to do the same thing.

I ran a lot of club level matches in years past, and all the club cared about was breaking even, a profit was a bonus. If a match didn’t have enough participation to at least break even, then it might be discontinued .

i do understand every situation is different, and if a match director has to basically create an event from scratch ( renting land/range space, arranging for all associated infrastructure from the bottom up, it could get costly.

my answer is not charge more but find a cheaper way to do it.

You have a a losers mentality. Most of us compete because its fun and makes us better shooters, but don't think most people dont WANT to win. Competition drives everyone. Its natural order. We are hard wired this way.

You also aren't shooting first class ran matches. Be it 2 day or 1 day, the Amenities, quality of the course, targets ect can be drastically different. Not many clubs have $5-10K in custom steel targets sitting around waiting for PRS guys to shoot it a few times a year.

"club" run matches tend to be the shittiest. Club officers don't understand the sport, They don't know how to set a COF, they have limited options with props and distances because this shit costs a ton of money. There is no incentive to really improve because the money goes back to the club and makes everyone lazy. Most "gun club" people are insufferable.

The best matches are private shooting facilities or Farms/private land that people turn into world class shooting facilities.

So many of you are so out of touch with reality as far as what shit costs today. You still think Coke costs a nickle and burgers from Mcdonalds are $.35.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I know some competitors who have stopped shooting centerfire events and only compete in PRS22 or other "precision" 22 events to reduce the costs (expensive 22 ammo still cheaper than centerfire plus tired of chasing components). If more PRS22 events become available will be interesting to see the turnouts.

Most of them suck at centerfire and shoot PRS22 because the level of competition is much lower. Granted there are some great rimfire shooters and some of the top centerfire guys also are the top rimfire; but this is what I have seen. Guys are big dicks winning 22 matches then shoot a center fire and are strait midpack. Lets see, either win or be another Joe. Peoples Egos are sensitive.

The only real difference between the two is ammo cost, time spend reloading and barrel replacements. Everything else is pretty much the same from match fees, to travel costs, to fixed gun costs, shooting support gear, ect.

The quality of shooters between the two is imense. If you don't believe me, go to PRS website and look at the tops rimfire shooters sitting at 300 then look at their centerfire scores. Some are incredible at both but for the vast majoity, there is a huge disparity.

 

[MajorD]

You have a a losers mentality. Most of us compete because its fun and makes us better shooters, but don't think most people dont WANT to win. Competition drives everyone. Its natural order. We are hard wired this way.

You also aren't shooting first class ran matches. Be it 2 day or 1 day, the Amenities, quality of the course, targets ect can be drastically different. Not many clubs have $5-10K in custom steel targets sitting around waiting for PRS guys to shoot it a few times a year.

"club" run matches tend to be the shittiest. Club officers don't understand the sport, They don't know how to set a COF, they have limited options with props and distances because this shit costs a ton of money. There is no incentive to really improve because the money goes back to the club and makes everyone lazy. Most "gun club" people are insufferable.

The best matches are private shooting facilities or Farms/private land that people turn into world class shooting facilities.

So many of you are so out of touch with reality as far as what shit costs today. You still think Coke costs a nickle and burgers from Mcdonalds are $.35.

There are varying levels of reality, you have yours I have mine, it’s all good. Having fun aT a match and further devloping skills doesn’t have to cost a lot of money. And considering I have a wall full of trophies from national level competitions, I can’t see how you concluded I have a “ losers mentality”

 

[MarkCZ]

I run a long range 22 LR match non PRS / NRL. It looks like PRS is wanting to push Rimfire to the level of Centerfire. I don't shoot PRS due to old knees ( I would love to shoot PRS, but can't ) I hope this push does not hurt the sport. If you make MD up their match fee, you see MD leave PRS and go back to outlaw matches. Also the high match fees will cause the average shooter to drop out due to the high cost of matches, and equipment.

I shot IPSC / USPSA from 1988 to 1993. When it started guns were heads up no classes. around 1992 the high cap 38 super came in to play and took over very quick. I was looking at $4000 for a high cap 38 super. in 93' equal to $8000 + today. I got out of USPSA because the cost to keep up, and a lot of guys at the same time. USPSA nearly went down due to membership dropping. Starting production class ( and other gun classes ) saved the USPSA. The average shooter can run a Glock and shoot in his own class and keep the cost down.

When the cost gets too high ( match fees, travel, gun cost )you lose shooters. The average shooter pays for all shooting sports, when you lose them, you lose the money needed to have matches. PRS needs to be careful and not push shooters out of the sport.