Range Report Thoughts following range day

[mzvarner]

First, this post covers a variety of issues (reloading, rifle cleaning, stupid marksmanship questions, etc) so hopefully this was the best place to set this thread. I recently got bitten by the LR bug again after getting my first high dollar optic, a K624i w/ SKMR 3. I decided to make rifle training, physical fitness, and winter climbing my focus this season. My local 1000 yard range opens at 1400 365 days a year and is open until dusk. I work nights unfortunately, so I got off work and slept until noon so I had time to pack up and head out. I had plans to shoot 60 rnds through my 6.5CM. 20 were to finish load development using IMR 4350 (not so good), 25 for a dot drill at 100 meters, and the rest to shoot off the new tripod/ hog saddle combo at 330-500 yards. Below are the thoughts I had following the session...

1. Do you guys track the SD of your SD? I brought the Magneto Speed to chrony the last of the IMR 4350 reloads. I shot 2 10 shot strings at various points of the range session. I also chrono'd a couple of the strings I shot for the dot drill. For the IMR 4350 strings I got SD's of 10.6 and 17.4 FPS w/ avg of 2756 and 2764. The avg and SD's for my standard H4350 load were 2754 (10.1) and 2742 (21.6). these are fairly consistent since initial load development when I got it back from LRI. This rifle now has over 1100 rnds, I have not cleaned the bore. I was having a hard time with my dot drill hits, they would be off in a random way, no pattern for me to pick up on to adjust my hold.

I think it may be time to recheck my distance to the lands, back off .02 and refine my powder charge? If this is the case, should I do a light clean of the bore? I have been burned before by removing copper and doing a heavy clean. It took me over 100 rnds to get back to 1/2 MOA accuracy.

2. How accurate are kestrels? What do you do to allow them time to acclimate when you get to the shooting position. I Keep mine stored in a zippered pouch in my range bag. I pull it out and set it on the bench with the sensors up. I noticed that my DA would be anywhere from 2500-2800. 2800 when I would pick it up off the table, watch it quickly drop to ~2500 (for reference the altitude of my city is ~2200 ASL). How do you decide what DA to use? Comparing to others I assume is best if there are others with one.

For kicks I put these variables in my Shooter app. It has proven reliable for me over the last couple years. My hold for 1000 yards (8.3 mil) did not change for a DA of 2200 to 2800. Thoughts?

3. I understand the importance of training in a variety of circumstances, but yesterday was a pretty bad day for me. I had finished my stretch of 12hr grave yards, slept 4 hours, and went to the range. I was battling with eye fatigue, where everything just got blurry, so I would have to break my position and look away to rest. The dot drill was par for the course where I missed my CB shot, then would randomly hit the dot. (I think its time to refine my load, see above.) Nothing special about the 2 10 shot strings, except I could feel fatigue in my firing hand on the 2nd string. I really noticed it when I switched to standing with the tripod, which I will go to next.

4. My final thoughts are on my tripod setup. I was lucky enough to make the cutoff on the October shipment of Pig0311 tripods from hog saddle. This is the first tripod I have shot off, I usually shoot prone or bench so its time to get out of my comfort zone. This was my 2nd time with this setup, and was much worse than the first time. My range has 40%- 60% IPSC torsos at 330, 420, and 500 yards. My first time out I was able to figure it out quickly, not so much this time. Again shooter fatigue set in, blurry vision, shaking more than before, dehydrated so my heart beat was more noticeable. Are you guys shooting off tripods w/ a sling to help control all this? I tried it and my TAB gear PRS sling was to cumbersome to get in a good shooting stance. I found it easier to just lean into the tripod while pulling the rifle back into my shoulder. Was still an issue, and I have lots to learn.

All in all it was a great day at the range. I got out of my comfort zone, and was shooting next to Nick, our local club president, who is also very competitive in PRS. So it was cool to have lots of misses and look like a noob next to a pretty accomplished shooter. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read this and giving me your thoughts. If you not getting off the bench and prone, you should be.

 

[canezach]

Here are my thoughts (which are usually worth LESS than 2 cents)

1. If I'm understanding your question, I don't keep track of the standard deviations of my standard deviations. I keep track of my ES and SD, obviously, so a quick run through a standard dev calculator could give me the numbers, if I ever need them. I also keep track of my individual shot velocities. I tend to shoot fairly often, so it's not uncommon for me to have a dirty bore. I clean when accuracy falls off or I begin to have unexplained fliers. If I were having some accuracy issues, the first thing I would do is give the rifle a good cleaning, ensure everything is torqued correctly, check my distance to the lands, double check my scale to ensure it's correct. How did you do your load development?

2. I couldn't tell you how accurate they are. I've been in a group of shooters and while our numbers have all been pretty close, but not exact. In my experience, the numbers on my Kestrel for DA have resulted in good firing solutions, but DOPE supercedes everything else.

3/4. I haven't used the PIG tripod. I've used Manfrottos and I currently have a Feisol. Since my Feisol has the Really Right Stuff leveling base, it's not a direct apples to apples comparison, but I used a Hog Saddle and Manfrotto ballhead on my old tripod setup. When I shot off a tripod, be it standing, kneeling, sitting, whatever, I used my sling to help stabilize the rifle. There are a couple of ways of doing it. You can unhook the sling from the rear of your rifle, run it between the tripod legs, and hook it to your belt with a carabiner. Moving your beltline forward or backwards slightly would increase or decrease the tension. The other technique is to wrap the sling around one of the legs and grip the wrapped sling. You can increase or decrease tension by simply twisting your hand. Take a look at the pics for the sling offered by the Hog guys. They show you what I mean.

http://stores.hogsaddle.com/ss-loophole-sling-1/

 

[mzvarner]

canezach- Thanks for the reply.

1. I meant it more as a joke for tracking the SD of the SD. This is my first "precision rig" but have read a lot about needing to clean and chase lands once accuracy falls off. I guess was asking if that sounds like whats happening. I follow the OCW method for load development. I have switched to using an RCBS Chargemaster for powder throws, but I weigh the first few on my beam scale to verify.

2. Fair enough, and makes since.

3. The PRS sling I have has a slot for a carabiner to connect to. I guess I need to just play around with it more before I go out again. Ultimately it is all about learning the systems.

 

[canezach]

It's possible you might be chasing the lands a bit, but you'll have to confirm that. I check the distance a few times a year, mostly when my groups open up a little, but I've found, at least in my case, that the bullets I shoot are fairly tolerant. It's more like there's a window of jump distances that my bullets like. I will start them out at, let's say 20 thou jump. As the throat erodes, my jump distance increases, but I don't chase the lands religiously until I start seeing it affect my downrange results.

What you're doing on the Chargemaster is what I do, as well. I'll throw charges and double-check them every so often on either a GemPro or my beam scale. As far as the sling goes, try out a few different positions. I really didn't care for attaching the sling to my belt. It just felt awkward to me and I could never get the hang of it. Wrapping the sling around the leg was almost intuitive for me.

 

[Supersubes]

It sounds like you werent in good physical shape, so you may just wanna write that day off. Probably best to not change anything and return when youre rested, and give it another go. I have mixed feelings on continued practice when the fundamentals start going. There’s something to be said for pushing through and getting it done(training and the real thing), but bad practice may be worse than no practice at all in some cases. If you're squeezing sessions in between shifts, and situations arent ideal, try consolidating the session a bit. Less rounds, slower tempo, and end it on a high note. You dont need to empty the ammo box.

Clean the gun. It wont hurt anything. Never heard of a barrel needing 100 rds to foul a bore. If it’s a custom barrel, id expect the first round to go into the group, and if not the first, then definitely the second!

 

[mzvarner]

So I measured my distance to the lands last night after cleaning the barrel, receiver, and taking the bolt apart and cleaning it as well. My Distance to lands measured 2.095 using the Hornady tool. When compared to my previous loaded rounds, they were loaded to 2.073. This was measured and adjusted when I had a little over 500 rounds through it, and I switched lots of bullets. So I am going to take 10 rounds, give them a tap in the bullet puller, and load them to 2.093, or 20 thousandths off the lands.

The barrel I had issues with was a factory Remington 308 barrel. And I did not just clean it, but I removed the copper fouling as well. It took me forever to get it back to a sub MOA rifle. The barrel I have on now is a Bartlein that was chambered by LRI. It has been a tack driver, so I am sure a few shots is all it needs, but I still hesitate each time I clean a rifle.

I have thought if no practice is better than poor practice, in fact there is a saying something like piss poor practice isn't there? However, I would argue this was actually good practice because I was noticing I was messing up the fundamentals, and I would adjust before making the shot. At any rate, I am well rested today, so may venture out again and see what happens.

 

[Sogan]

So I measured my distance to the lands last night after cleaning the barrel, receiver, and taking the bolt apart and cleaning it as well. My Distance to lands measured 2.095 using the Hornady tool. When compared to my previous loaded rounds, they were loaded to 2.073. This was measured and adjusted when I had a little over 500 rounds through it, and I switched lots of bullets. So I am going to take 10 rounds, give them a tap in the bullet puller, and load them to 2.093, or 20 thousandths off the lands.

The barrel I had issues with was a factory Remington 308 barrel. And I did not just clean it, but I removed the copper fouling as well. It took me forever to get it back to a sub MOA rifle. The barrel I have on now is a Bartlein that was chambered by LRI. It has been a tack driver, so I am sure a few shots is all it needs, but I still hesitate each time I clean a rifle.

I have thought if no practice is better than poor practice, in fact there is a saying something like piss poor practice isn't there? However, I would argue this was actually good practice because I was noticing I was messing up the fundamentals, and I would adjust before making the shot. At any rate, I am well rested today, so may venture out again and see what happens.

If you measured the base to ogive at 2.095 then only seating the bullet to 2.093 would be a two thousand jump. Not 20 thousand.

20/1000 = .02

2.095 - .002 = 2.093
2.095 - .020 (20 thousand) = 2.075

 

[mzvarner]

If you measured the base to ogive at 2.095 then only seating the bullet to 2.093 would be a two thousand jump. Not 20 thousand.

20/1000 = .02

2.095 - .002 = 2.093
2.095 - .020 (20 thousand) = 2.075

Thanks for the catch, I owe you a cold one. I wondered why the throat grew so much. Perfect example of why questioning data is important. I lost my old load data, so i cannot compare measurements, but it sounds like my current load is where it should be. Thank god I only adjusted 10 rounds. Stay in school kids.

 

[TheGerman]

First, this post covers a variety of issues (reloading, rifle cleaning, stupid marksmanship questions, etc) so hopefully this was the best place to set this thread. I recently got bitten by the LR bug again after getting my first high dollar optic, a K624i w/ SKMR 3. I decided to make rifle training, physical fitness, and winter climbing my focus this season. My local 1000 yard range opens at 1400 365 days a year and is open until dusk. I work nights unfortunately, so I got off work and slept until noon so I had time to pack up and head out. I had plans to shoot 60 rnds through my 6.5CM. 20 were to finish load development using IMR 4350 (not so good), 25 for a dot drill at 100 meters, and the rest to shoot off the new tripod/ hog saddle combo at 330-500 yards. Below are the thoughts I had following the session...

1. Do you guys track the SD of your SD? I brought the Magneto Speed to chrony the last of the IMR 4350 reloads. I shot 2 10 shot strings at various points of the range session. I also chrono'd a couple of the strings I shot for the dot drill. For the IMR 4350 strings I got SD's of 10.6 and 17.4 FPS w/ avg of 2756 and 2764. The avg and SD's for my standard H4350 load were 2754 (10.1) and 2742 (21.6). these are fairly consistent since initial load development when I got it back from LRI. This rifle now has over 1100 rnds, I have not cleaned the bore. I was having a hard time with my dot drill hits, they would be off in a random way, no pattern for me to pick up on to adjust my hold.

No. Keep track of your velocities per string as well as the temperature. This comes into play with making any kind of data card as well as plugging load info into a ballistics computer. S/D simply tells me if my loading technique is consistent. I track all of my velocities per loading, per temperature on a spreadsheet and I can see how the temperature effects it. Unless my S/D is consistently over 10 (meaning I'm doing something different and/or something in my process was off), I don't even pay attention to it.

Do you mean its been 1k rounds since you've cleaned at all? You definitely need to take the carbon out, but dont worry about copper.

I think it may be time to recheck my distance to the lands, back off .02 and refine my powder charge? If this is the case, should I do a light clean of the bore? I have been burned before by removing copper and doing a heavy clean. It took me over 100 rnds to get back to 1/2 MOA accuracy.

If I read the above right and you haven't cleaned in 1k rounds, clean the carbon out before changing anything. I can't remember the last time I cleaned out copper.

2. How accurate are kestrels? What do you do to allow them time to acclimate when you get to the shooting position. I Keep mine stored in a zippered pouch in my range bag. I pull it out and set it on the bench with the sensors up. I noticed that my DA would be anywhere from 2500-2800. 2800 when I would pick it up off the table, watch it quickly drop to ~2500 (for reference the altitude of my city is ~2200 ASL). How do you decide what DA to use? Comparing to others I assume is best if there are others with one.

For kicks I put these variables in my Shooter app. It has proven reliable for me over the last couple years. My hold for 1000 yards (8.3 mil) did not change for a DA of 2200 to 2800. Thoughts?

Kestrell for the purpose of altitude/DA/temperature are fine. A 1k step in DA won't do anything. Your actual ASL altitude by itself is useless as it is only 1 part of actual DA. The data cards I use when not using a computer are in 2k graduations and even there they have small, if any changes. A 500-800 DA change will be almost constantly happening, so don't get stuck on your kestrell constantly updating. Check it every 15 mins or so, or check it when you feel theres been a temp swing or an environmental swing like clouds are moving in, it feels colder, humidity just went through the roof, etc.

3. I understand the importance of training in a variety of circumstances, but yesterday was a pretty bad day for me. I had finished my stretch of 12hr grave yards, slept 4 hours, and went to the range. I was battling with eye fatigue, where everything just got blurry, so I would have to break my position and look away to rest. The dot drill was par for the course where I missed my CB shot, then would randomly hit the dot. (I think its time to refine my load, see above.) Nothing special about the 2 10 shot strings, except I could feel fatigue in my firing hand on the 2nd string. I really noticed it when I switched to standing with the tripod, which I will go to next.

Eye fatigue makes you do things with your eye and head to try and overcome it; this is possibly a good portion of why you felt you were all over the place. Were you canting your head, craning your neck, lifting your head to change head position? If so, that's a piece of all of this.

4. My final thoughts are on my tripod setup. I was lucky enough to make the cutoff on the October shipment of Pig0311 tripods from hog saddle. This is the first tripod I have shot off, I usually shoot prone or bench so its time to get out of my comfort zone. This was my 2nd time with this setup, and was much worse than the first time. My range has 40%- 60% IPSC torsos at 330, 420, and 500 yards. My first time out I was able to figure it out quickly, not so much this time. Again shooter fatigue set in, blurry vision, shaking more than before, dehydrated so my heart beat was more noticeable. Are you guys shooting off tripods w/ a sling to help control all this? I tried it and my TAB gear PRS sling was to cumbersome to get in a good shooting stance. I found it easier to just lean into the tripod while pulling the rifle back into my shoulder. Was still an issue, and I have lots to learn.

Tripod will be more wobbly than prone or off a bench. I've tried every way to shoot off of them and yes, a sling is a huge help but for me, trying to hook it to a belt was more trouble than it was worth as well as once you set it up, moving out of that specific position caused the sling to now be too tight/too loose. The best way of utilizing a sling I've used is to learn to candycane the sling to the tripod on the weak side (left if you're a righty) side. Additionally, the first mistake people make with shooting off a tripod is to then lead with their weak side foot creating an angle on your upper body; instead lead with your right leg/foot and keep your torso/shoulder square to the rifle, just like when shooting prone. Also DO NOT push forward with your body onto the candycane'd rifle in the rest. Make contact while square and pull it back to remove any slack and kind of 'hang' there, again, alot like prone.

All in all it was a great day at the range. I got out of my comfort zone, and was shooting next to Nick, our local club president, who is also very competitive in PRS. So it was cool to have lots of misses and look like a noob next to a pretty accomplished shooter. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read this and giving me your thoughts. If you not getting off the bench and prone, you should be.

 

[mzvarner]

TheGerman - Thanks for the advice. Yes it has been about 1k rounds since cleaning, But I took care of that already. I am planning to go out tomorrow so we will see what happens. I did some dry fire tripod practice yesterday, and it felt much better. I think a large portion of what I was experiencing was fatigue. May need to reevaluate how I am feeling after working my stretches, so I am not just putting rounds down range.

 

[mzvarner]

Well I should have cleaned it sooner. Groups tightened up, had great success at 1k (for me). Honestly I am a little annoyed I didn't do it sooner.