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thoughts on 223AI
- Thread starter gerryb03
- Start date
Yes! My favorite is a 7 twist running 80gr.Bergers or A-maxes @ 3000-3050 fps. In calm conditions 1st round hits at 1K are very doable.
Agree, running 75 amax 3070 out of 8 tw 24" brux. Ballistically hangs with 243 out to about 800. Good bbl life, negligable recoil. Accurate as hell.
Interesting. Nobody asked what you are going to use it for. I guess the 223 AI is
just a hands down "must have"? Anyway, IMO the 223 is a pussy round for a bolt gun.
Wasting time fire-forming a 223 AI is outright stupid. But again, what is the intended use?
just a hands down "must have"? Anyway, IMO the 223 is a pussy round for a bolt gun.
Wasting time fire-forming a 223 AI is outright stupid. But again, what is the intended use?
I shoot target rifles in 338LM, 7RM, 308 and 22-250. If I wanted to convert the 22-250 to an 223AI, once I've toasted the barrel, what's the issue you have...the 223 Remington is a pussy cartridge in a bolt gun?
Some A.I.s fireform pretty accurately, like the 22-250, so it's not like you're wasting ammo just to get the brass.
Chris
Well worth it. Zero recoil, long bbl life, excellent accuracy. As for a 223/223AI being a pussy round in a bolt gun? That's hogwash. As for uses? Use it for whatever you want. Vermin to deer or a competition rifle. I've won a hellova lot of local matches wit my AI. Not to mention a couple guys finishing in the top 10 of some PRS matches with 223.
I have 2, one is a target rifle and the other is a truck/yote rifle, love the 223AI, Cheap, good ballistics, zero recoil and great for new shooters / wifes etc.
Put me down as mildly disappointed in performance. I have a factory 700LVSF punched to Ackley. I did make a one shot kill on a 200 pound hog, but I lost one coyote that fussed around and got up when I wasn't looking. Lost that animal. Both, 55 VMax. But the main thing is that I gain (at most) only 50 fps with 40 to 55 grain bullets. And, it wasn't cheap and seemed to take forever. I have five other Ackley's, and the 223 is my least favored. On the other hand, the Lapua brass will probably last forever, no trimming to length. BB
This guy has not come back and specified his application. If he's a paper puncher, the 223AI might have merit, don't know? But, as a hunting cartridge, it's pretty tame, you just can't do much with that case, other than neck it down to 17/223 or .204. It is marginal, (as is) for coyotes, for instance. A plain vanilla 22-250 beats it by a wide margin. If you already own a rifle chambered for 223, you can squeeze a few more fps with the "improved" but I am not overly impressed with mine, terminally speaking. Do all the studying you like but the numbers won't change, there is not much you can do with it, other than good case life. And, with 223 brass being as plentiful as it is, BFD. BB
This is hilarious. I've killed plenty of deer and hogs with a 223ai. Most with the 75 SS2, but also plenty with a 75 amax. Bullet selection and shot placement trump all. The boys in Alaska smoke Blacktails a plenty via 223ai as well.
I shoot prairie dogs with mine. I like it just fine but won't build another one. My 223 does the job just fine.
223 may be my favorite rifle, shot several deer and countless fox/coyotes. I use 40gr Vmax and N120 for a very fast and accurate load. Also used 80gr amax for ringing steel out to 900yds and enjoyed the lack of recoil. plenty to like in the 223 or 223imp unless your shooting something that wants to eat you.
I built a 22" 1:7 223AI last year...link is in my signature line.
It is far and away my favorite rifle, and I shoot it quite a bit more than my 260 - its very cheap to shoot and has no recoil. I fireform by shooting paper & banging steel, tumble, neck-size with a 223 Rem Lee Collet Die, prime with a CCI-450, charge with powder and seat bullet. It really isn't any more work than loading any other cartridge, other than doing an initial test during fireforming to find the "best" load.
Varget gives me 2890fps with the 80gr A-Max, just started testing 8208XBR and I have to verify results but its looking like 2930fps and nearly 1/4MOA accuracy.
The 80gr A-max is also hell on deer. Excuse the blurry iPhone picture (was cold as hell!) but I shot this doe at 65yd last November in Kentucky. The bullet entered just in front of the left ear and left a fist-sized cavity from the inside of the right eye to the right ear. I wouldn't hesitate making a heart/lung shot with this bullet.
It is far and away my favorite rifle, and I shoot it quite a bit more than my 260 - its very cheap to shoot and has no recoil. I fireform by shooting paper & banging steel, tumble, neck-size with a 223 Rem Lee Collet Die, prime with a CCI-450, charge with powder and seat bullet. It really isn't any more work than loading any other cartridge, other than doing an initial test during fireforming to find the "best" load.
Varget gives me 2890fps with the 80gr A-Max, just started testing 8208XBR and I have to verify results but its looking like 2930fps and nearly 1/4MOA accuracy.
The 80gr A-max is also hell on deer. Excuse the blurry iPhone picture (was cold as hell!) but I shot this doe at 65yd last November in Kentucky. The bullet entered just in front of the left ear and left a fist-sized cavity from the inside of the right eye to the right ear. I wouldn't hesitate making a heart/lung shot with this bullet.
Hey Hilarious, I address my remarks on the advantage of the Ackley over the plain vanilla 223. (minuscule)
Since my main interest is predators, not hogs and deer, I think I know a little bit about performance and I find the 223AI considerably lacking.
I own a 243AI, 2ea 22-250AI's, a 25'06AI, 2ea. 220Swift, a 243W and 2ea. 6MMRem., a 22/243Middlested and that 223Ackley. I have killed hundreds of coyotes with every rifle listed. The 223AI does not smack a coyote anywhere near as hard as any of the others, and I do a lot of this stuff, and I expect Bang/Flop, so my opinion carries weight with some people. BTW, many of those Indians up north kill blacktails with a rimfire. What does that prove? Just sayin'
Since my main interest is predators, not hogs and deer, I think I know a little bit about performance and I find the 223AI considerably lacking.
I own a 243AI, 2ea 22-250AI's, a 25'06AI, 2ea. 220Swift, a 243W and 2ea. 6MMRem., a 22/243Middlested and that 223Ackley. I have killed hundreds of coyotes with every rifle listed. The 223AI does not smack a coyote anywhere near as hard as any of the others, and I do a lot of this stuff, and I expect Bang/Flop, so my opinion carries weight with some people. BTW, many of those Indians up north kill blacktails with a rimfire. What does that prove? Just sayin'
Plenty of BANG/FLOP COYOTES with the 223. I also shoot a 22-6mm imp and I can guarantee the critters never knew the difference!!!
It always seemed worth the Ackley conversion just to not have to trim brass alone. Not all Ackley Improvements are that much of a ballistic improvement. I have a 30-06AI and a 30-30AI and have thought about doing a 223...not alot to it when you are a gunsmith by trade and have a lathe. Dont know if I would have converted any if not for doing it myself, but I will say this; if someone hits a coyote with a 223 and dont see "bang,flop" you didn't hit him very good. No coyote is a match for a proper placed bullet from any centerfire hi-powered rifle round, 223 Ackley or not.
I will be using it for a bunch of things, shooting steel at distance, shooting hogs and varmits. Might shoot a few deer but in florida they are small. It may be tame but i don't think i would stick my hand out and catch a 75 grain AMAX at 1000 yards it might hurt. I actually know it is what it is and a kirby allen magnum it is not but i think it would be fun and another gun to play with.HA!
I don't think there is really anything to lose by going with the Ackley and even the slightest gain, which there is some, makes it worthwhile. I have a 260AI and a 243AI, if and when I build a 223 bolt gun it too will be an AI. Beyond any point mentioned is the simple fact of your personal choice and preference.
Actually, "the slightest gain" is something worth looking at more closely. At what cost does it come? While it's true that a larger capacity case can deliver higher velocity at the same pressure, it also takes more powder to reach the same velocities as the smaller case. In otherwords, it's more effective, but less efficient. Cartridge efficiency is very easy and very straighforward; energy in vs. energy out. A single grain of single base IMR powder has approximately 178 ft.lbs. of potential energy, so you can figure how much energy is in a case full of that powder. The muzzle energy is the output, that which is converted to actual energy available for use. When we get to using larger cases in a given bore size, what you'll find is that they are capable of higher energy output, but they do so at a diminishing return. Most cartridges operate at somewhere around 25% efficiency, some a bit more, some a bit less. But it's a good way to measure a case alteration like the AI chamber.
P.O. Ackley himself noted that some of his Improved cartridgee didn't really offer anything worthwhile, while others did. In my own opinion, the 223 is one of the former. Very little body taper and fairly sharp shoulders mean that there isn't really that much of a change in the "Improved" case. Take something like the 22-250 or the 257 Roberts, and it's a whole different story. Large amounts of body taper to be removed, and fairly low shoulder angles, both of which make the Improved versions of these cartridges a notable step up from the parent case.
P.O. Ackley himself noted that some of his Improved cartridgee didn't really offer anything worthwhile, while others did. In my own opinion, the 223 is one of the former. Very little body taper and fairly sharp shoulders mean that there isn't really that much of a change in the "Improved" case. Take something like the 22-250 or the 257 Roberts, and it's a whole different story. Large amounts of body taper to be removed, and fairly low shoulder angles, both of which make the Improved versions of these cartridges a notable step up from the parent case.
Kevin, I think you explained the problem converting a 223 to Improved a lot better than I did. It's already a fairly efficient design.
I know what P.O. said, and he built my first 25'06AI back in the 70's. However, he would be the first to acknowledge that R-22 wasn't available back then when he said the 25'06 Improved was not worthwhile. With 100 grain Noslers, I get performance equal to published 257Weatherby data, with 14 grains less powder. 117/120 grain bullets, not as good, but the 100 grain load runs right with the Weatherby.
Anyway, too many keyboard experts here, I'm done. BB
PS, actually, it was Kirby Allen that did my 223AI. It cost $325 for "the slightest gain"
I know what P.O. said, and he built my first 25'06AI back in the 70's. However, he would be the first to acknowledge that R-22 wasn't available back then when he said the 25'06 Improved was not worthwhile. With 100 grain Noslers, I get performance equal to published 257Weatherby data, with 14 grains less powder. 117/120 grain bullets, not as good, but the 100 grain load runs right with the Weatherby.
Anyway, too many keyboard experts here, I'm done. BB
PS, actually, it was Kirby Allen that did my 223AI. It cost $325 for "the slightest gain"
I too have other ackleys and all of them shoot the regular ones better than the originals in my cases. My 257ai will shoot 257 bob
Loads better than my 257 bob,sold the bob, my 280 AI shoots factory 280 ammo better than my 280, sold 280 and if this 223 AI I am getting out shoots my 223 Remington tactical it will be sold
Loads better than my 257 bob,sold the bob, my 280 AI shoots factory 280 ammo better than my 280, sold 280 and if this 223 AI I am getting out shoots my 223 Remington tactical it will be sold
BuzzBoss,
Powder developments are always (or should be) a consideration in things like this, and your point is well taken. Lots of cartridges that weren't worth the effort when 4831 was the slowest stuff on the market, have come into their own with more recent developments. But yes, the fairly shallow body taper and sharp shoulders of the parent case will always mean that the Ackley treatment won't net the benefits that they would if they were applied to a case with dramatic body taper and a shallow shoulder angle. Bottom line is, there's just more "blank space" in such a design that can be filled in with the Improved version. Not trying to dissuade anyone here, just trying to make sure that everyone has their eyes open going into such a project.
Sounds like you already know the feeling.
Powder developments are always (or should be) a consideration in things like this, and your point is well taken. Lots of cartridges that weren't worth the effort when 4831 was the slowest stuff on the market, have come into their own with more recent developments. But yes, the fairly shallow body taper and sharp shoulders of the parent case will always mean that the Ackley treatment won't net the benefits that they would if they were applied to a case with dramatic body taper and a shallow shoulder angle. Bottom line is, there's just more "blank space" in such a design that can be filled in with the Improved version. Not trying to dissuade anyone here, just trying to make sure that everyone has their eyes open going into such a project.
Sounds like you already know the feeling.
I like the .223. If/when I shoot the barrel out I'll go AI.
"The DHS has purchased over 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition over the past year – enough to wage a 20 year plus war. Earlier this month, Forbes Magazine called for a “national conversation” on the matter."
"The DHS has purchased over 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition over the past year – enough to wage a 20 year plus war. Earlier this month, Forbes Magazine called for a “national conversation” on the matter."
223 ai main advantage -brass life & a short throat
7twist will shoot 35-90gr
good fur takin fur at a fur peice
little to no- pelt damage
takes 1/2 the powder of a 243
with same wieght bullets that are longer than same weight & shorter 243 bullets equals a better bc
I can shoot more
& with 80gr amax's -good 1st deer rifle for the grandkids
being a miltary cartride
I cant see components being scarce for long
with 5gr of trailboss its pretty quite & effective
7twist will shoot 35-90gr
good fur takin fur at a fur peice
little to no- pelt damage
takes 1/2 the powder of a 243
with same wieght bullets that are longer than same weight & shorter 243 bullets equals a better bc
I can shoot more
& with 80gr amax's -good 1st deer rifle for the grandkids
being a miltary cartride
I cant see components being scarce for long
with 5gr of trailboss its pretty quite & effective
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