Thoughts on Nitrided Bolts in 2022?

[JS8588]

It seems like many well regarded companies are offering nitride/melonite bolts as a default these days. While it's certainly a more durable surface treatment than mil spec phosphate, I know there's a school of thought out there (& I'm sure @Constructor will be along shortly to give voice to it) that it negatively impacts the core steel's durability over time. I myself have a preference for chrome (seems like LMT agrees with me there as they've switched from a NIB/NP3 coating on their bolts to chrome) or, if I can't have that, DLC/PVD.

What say the professionals, experts, & enthusiasts here?

Just something I've been pondering as cabin fever sets in.

 

[GhostFace]

I like Chrome Nitride the best, I have NiB, NP3, Chrome and CrN is the best in my opinion. The CrN bolts I have look like the day they came to me, they have been run suppressed and ran dry. I'm really surprised the big companies hasn't picked up on it. I sent mine to IonBond many years ago to have them done and it was some of the best money I have spent.

 

[acudaowner]

all up to you if you can get it and the cost don't make you wallet squeak then enjoy either way I am happy to get a new gun .

 

[JS8588]

I like Chrome Nitride the best, I have NiB, NP3, Chrome and CrN is the best in my opinion. The CrN bolts I have look like the day they came to me, they have been run suppressed and ran dry. I'm really surprised the big companies hasn't picked up on it. I sent mine to IonBond many years ago to have them done and it was some of the best money I have spent.

CrN is exactly what Geissele uses. They call it "nanoweapon", but it's definitely CrN.

 

[raidergrad]

Where can a guy get Chrome Nitride done on a bolt and possibly an action at? Also, any ideas on the prospective cost?

 

[JS8588]

Where can a guy get Chrome Nitride done on a bolt and possibly an action at? Also, any ideas on the prospective cost?





Chad does good work

Club Custom Guns Inc.

www.clubcustomguns.com

 

[GhostFace]

oops…I didn’t realize that I had replied to this thread

 

[longshot2000]

Where can a guy get Chrome Nitride done on a bolt and possibly an action at? Also, any ideas on the prospective cost?

I think there might be some confusion. Ion-bonding is trademaked process also called DLC, and yes, it is what Geissele calls Nanoweapon (just because Bill ran out of Super words). It creates a new surface that is "diamond like" in a vacuum chamber with some electric charge to attach atoms to the surface, and is probably the best for actions, bolts, you name it. Nitriding is QPQ and is a thigh temperature Nitride a salt bath that treats the surface, and you will see these on many barrels and BCGs and is very hard and durable. One step below DLC.

I am guessing the OP is referencing BCGs that are black Nitrided, aka Melonite (trade mark), compared to common military grade chrome lined and phosphate coated. I think there are many reviews that would say it comes down to personal preference and also the company who made the BCG and supervised the coating processes (important).

The black nitride salt bath becomes much more cost-efficient to do in bulk, so you might see a lower price on a nitride BCG or barrel, compared to the traditional phosphate exterior with oil and interior chrome. I do not think there is a cheapness or lack of quality in black nitride compared to chrome/phosphate, but I do see a larger number of bad nitride jobs, which is more about the barrel or BCG company than the process itself.

 

[Constructor]

I think there might be some confusion. Ion-bonding is trademaked process also called DLC, and yes, it is what Geissele calls Nanoweapon (just because Bill ran out of Super words). It creates a new surface that is "diamond like" in a vacuum chamber with some electric charge to attach atoms to the surface, and is probably the best for actions, bolts, you name it. Nitriding is QPQ and is a thigh temperature Nitride a salt bath that treats the surface, and you will see these on many barrels and BCGs and is very hard and durable. One step below DLC.

I am guessing the OP is referencing BCGs that are black Nitrided, aka Melonite (trade mark), compared to common military grade chrome lined and phosphate coated. I think there are many reviews that would say it comes down to personal preference and also the company who made the BCG and supervised the coating processes (important).

The black nitride salt bath becomes much more cost-efficient to do in bulk, so you might see a lower price on a nitride BCG or barrel, compared to the traditional phosphate exterior with oil and interior chrome. I do not think there is a cheapness or lack of quality in black nitride compared to chrome/phosphate, but I do see a larger number of bad nitride jobs, which is more about the barrel or BCG company than the process itself.

I'm pretty sure he means BOLTS not BCGs. Actually bolts and barrel extensions since those are the 2 parts that take the most shock.
He's heard my opinion before so I wont get into it.

Carriers can be Nitride/Melonite QPQ treated with no issues because there is very little shock load...only at the cam pin.
Starting 2009 we manufactured carriers with Melonite treatment, NiB, TiN and TiAlN. NiB without heat afterwards is soft, NiB with heat treat will be much harder, Chome is the same it can be decorative or hard chrome. TiN is a CVD coating, TiAlN is a PVD coating.
My opinion, any coating that is so slick it does not hold oil may be a waste, you can only run them so long before they slow down. You can run them longer than a parkerized carrier with no oil but not as long as a parkerized carrier that has been lubed.

Just for the hell of it, A company that Nitride treats gun parts told me they could treat the barrels and the extensions at the same time and it would not effect the torque of the barrel extension. Below is a short clip of one of the barrels treated by the company that told me that. Notice I am holding the barrel in my hand when I hit it with the impact. Do ya think it effected the torque...yeah it should be 150ftlbs. I removed all of the treated barrel extensions, cleaned the threads and replaced them with properly case hardened barrel extensions made by AO. You can see the finished barrels with silver extensions in the background.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I know I avoid nitrided extractors for my 7.62x39 AR bolt and other large case rims, because I've had nitrided ones crack on me while the NiB ones are still going strong. it has to be a pretty niche use case like those for it to make any appreciable difference though.

anyone who's seen a x39 extractor for an AR will understand immediately what I mean, they're quite thin and the stress at the claw is pretty nasty. Not the fault of the manufacturers who made the extractors that broke, they were made to a price, and NiB would have been more reliable but not met that price.

 

[Constructor]

I know I avoid nitrided extractors for my 7.62x39 AR bolt and other large case rims, because I've had nitrided ones crack on me while the NiB ones are still going strong. it has to be a pretty niche use case like those for it to make any appreciable difference though.

anyone who's seen a x39 extractor for an AR will understand immediately what I mean, they're quite thin and the stress at the claw is pretty nasty. Not the fault of the manufacturers who made the extractors that broke, they were made to a price, and NiB would have been more reliable but not met that price.

Try the ones sold by Black Rifle Arms in Florida, they are the only ones I would use in the bolts we machined. They are thicker on each side of the stiffener instead of dished like most extractors.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Try the ones sold by Black Rifle Arms in Florida, they are the only ones I would use in the bolts we machined.

That's actually the ones I'm using, from when they did a short run of NiB ones before they came out with the newer nitrided ones. haven't tried those yet. if they're gtg then that makes me happy. I'll order a couple for spares just in case

 

[Molon]

I've been using an IonBonded bolt carrier for years. It has thousands of rounds on it (through three different AR-15s) and it still looks practically new.

...

 

[Constructor]

That's actually the ones I'm using, from when they did a short run of NiB ones before they came out with the newer nitrided ones. haven't tried those yet. if they're gtg then that makes me happy. I'll order a couple for spares just in case

They weren't nitride treated when I was using them, just parkerized. I wouldn't use a nitride treated extractor either.

 

[raidergrad]

I think there might be some confusion. Ion-bonding is trademaked process also called DLC, and yes, it is what Geissele calls Nanoweapon (just because Bill ran out of Super words). It creates a new surface that is "diamond like" in a vacuum chamber with some electric charge to attach atoms to the surface, and is probably the best for actions, bolts, you name it. Nitriding is QPQ and is a thigh temperature Nitride a salt bath that treats the surface, and you will see these on many barrels and BCGs and is very hard and durable. One step below DLC.

I am guessing the OP is referencing BCGs that are black Nitrided, aka Melonite (trade mark), compared to common military grade chrome lined and phosphate coated. I think there are many reviews that would say it comes down to personal preference and also the company who made the BCG and supervised the coating processes (important).

The black nitride salt bath becomes much more cost-efficient to do in bulk, so you might see a lower price on a nitride BCG or barrel, compared to the traditional phosphate exterior with oil and interior chrome. I do not think there is a cheapness or lack of quality in black nitride compared to chrome/phosphate, but I do see a larger number of bad nitride jobs, which is more about the barrel or BCG company than the process itself.

I understand that there is a lot of discussion here on BCH and bolts for AR-15, but I mean bolt as in bolt action! I have a Rem 700 that is cerakoted and I'm after a finish that can make it as slick as my Impact Precision or Zermatt actions.

 

[12Bravo20]

I retired as a journeyman tool and die maker. We used Nitride and Titanium Nitride coating on punch inside punch presses wit frequently. The coatings never effected the long term durability of the punches. A punch stamping through 1/4" to 3/8" steel takes way more abuse than an AR bolt ever will.

These types of coatings will last longer with proper lubrication applied.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Every time someone calls nitride a coating God kills a kitten.
Think of the kittens people.

 

[JS8588]

As I said, contact Chad https://www.clubcustomguns.com/

I understand that there is a lot of discussion here on BCH and bolts for AR-15, but I mean bolt as in bolt action! I have a Rem 700 that is cerakoted and I'm after a finish that can make it as slick as my Impact Precision or Zermatt actions.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I would rather have a phosphate with a chrome bore BC than a nitrided BC.
Maybe its my imagination but seems to me that the bolts in nitrided BCG's start to get sticky
way sooner than BC's with chrome bores.



Who make a large frame chrome BCG besides KAC and LMT?

 

[RUTGERS95]

Try the ones sold by Black Rifle Arms in Florida, they are the only ones I would use in the bolts we machined. They are thicker on each side of the stiffener instead of dished like most extractors.

BCA figured it out with a relief cut. Have yet to have a BCA extractor break while AIM, a PSA (early) broke in under 4k rds.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I'm pretty sure he means BOLTS not BCGs. Actually bolts and barrel extensions since those are the 2 parts that take the most shock.
He's heard my opinion before so I wont get into it.

Carriers can be Nitride/Melonite QPQ treated with no issues because there is very little shock load...only at the cam pin.
Starting 2009 we manufactured carriers with Melonite treatment, NiB, TiN and TiAlN. NiB without heat afterwards is soft, NiB with heat treat will be much harder, Chome is the same it can be decorative or hard chrome. TiN is a CVD coating, TiAlN is a PVD coating.
My opinion, any coating that is so slick it does not hold oil may be a waste, you can only run them so long before they slow down. You can run them longer than a parkerized carrier with no oil but not as long as a parkerized carrier that has been lubed.

Just for the hell of it, A company that Nitride treats gun parts told me they could treat the barrels and the extensions at the same time and it would not effect the torque of the barrel extension. Below is a short clip of one of the barrels treated by the company that told me that. Notice I am holding the barrel in my hand when I hit it with the impact. Do ya think it effected the torque...yeah it should be 150ftlbs. I removed all of the treated barrel extensions, cleaned the threads and replaced them with properly case hardened barrel extensions made by AO. You can see the finished barrels with silver extensions in the background.

AO is outstanding

 

[raidergrad]

As I said, contact Chad https://www.clubcustomguns.com/

Checked with Chad but it put this project out of the budget at $432 for Ionbond on the bolt and action.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I retired as a journeyman tool and die maker. We used Nitride and Titanium Nitride coating on punch inside punch presses wit frequently. The coatings never effected the long term durability of the punches. A punch stamping through 1/4" to 3/8" steel takes way more abuse than an AR bolt ever will.

These types of coatings will last longer with proper lubrication applied.

that makes sense because nitrided steel is excellent in compression, but worse in tension.

 

[NC_Libertarian]

I think there might be some confusion. Ion-bonding is trademaked process also called DLC, and yes, it is what Geissele calls Nanoweapon (just because Bill ran out of Super words). It creates a new surface that is "diamond like" in a vacuum chamber with some electric charge to attach atoms to the surface, and is probably the best for actions, bolts, you name it. Nitriding is QPQ and is a thigh temperature Nitride a salt bath that treats the surface, and you will see these on many barrels and BCGs and is very hard and durable. One step below DLC.

I am guessing the OP is referencing BCGs that are black Nitrided, aka Melonite (trade mark), compared to common military grade chrome lined and phosphate coated. I think there are many reviews that would say it comes down to personal preference and also the company who made the BCG and supervised the coating processes (important).

The black nitride salt bath becomes much more cost-efficient to do in bulk, so you might see a lower price on a nitride BCG or barrel, compared to the traditional phosphate exterior with oil and interior chrome. I do not think there is a cheapness or lack of quality in black nitride compared to chrome/phosphate, but I do see a larger number of bad nitride jobs, which is more about the barrel or BCG company than the process itself.

I don't know this for 100% fact, but I believe that the term "Nanoweapon" is actually the trademarked name for the process. The company that does the work for Geissele created and owns the name, not Geissele.

Gwynedd Nanoweapon

 

[MontanaMan]

Ion Bond is the name of a company that does both CrN & DLC, via the PVD process that they call IonBond.

DLC has a very low COF, so it's very slick, but it does not really absorb oil. CrN is not quite as hard with a somewhat less COF.

Neither do anything to the undying base material other than adding a slick, hard surface.

I like DLC bolts from JP, & the slickest BCG's I've used are DLC from Toolcraft, plain polished stainless from JP, & titanium with some magic (probably some kind of PVD similar to DLC) from RCA.

But, honestly, other than the bolt stem being harder to clean, I've never seen a problem with a good manganese phosphates bolt or carrier when used with good lube.

MM

 

[JS8588]

Ion Bond is the name of a company that does both CrN & DLC, via the PVD process that they call IonBond.

DLC has a very low COF, so it's very slick, but it does not really absorb oil. CrN is not quite as hard with a somewhat less COF.

Neither do anything to the undying base material other than adding a slick, hard surface.

I like DLC bolts from JP, & the slickest BCG's I've used are DLC from Toolcraft, plain polished stainless from JP, & titanium with some magic (probably some kind of PVD similar to DLC) from RCA.

But, honestly, other than the bolt stem being harder to clean, I've never seen a problem with a good manganese phosphates bolt or carrier when used with good lube.

MM

The titanium bolt carriers from RCA are nitride treated and then coated with some sort of Teflon process.