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TIKKA T3x Super Varmint SS or Bergara HMR Pro in 22-250

B

Biff2

Private
Minuteman
Mar 31, 2017
31
2
#1
I was in a Dicks today and saw a new gun. It was a Bergara in 6.5 creedmore. Its not much to look at but the stock has some nice features. It was 999.00.

I'm looking for a Varmint gun maybe good for 400 yards or so. So 223, 22-250 or maybe .204 cal.

The Tikka T3x super varmint looks nice but can't find a place that sells them in the US. Then I see Begarga has this HMR Pro but the pro is like 1,800.

I'm thinking that is quite a bit for a plastic stocked gun, might pay a little more 2k and get a Sako 85. a gun that at least looks like it could cost 2,000.

But bottom line to me is accuracy and I don't really plan on becoming a hand loader but the .204 call option might force that hand.


What do you guys think? Skip the plastic and go Sako in wood? I do think the Bargara has something with that stock, they might have the harmonics tuned better with it out of the box.
 
#2
The Tikka Super Varmit is (unfortunately) not imported into the US from what I’ve read. Lotta folks on here like both the Bergara and Tikka T3 actions. Just get which one feels better for you.

Might also want to look at the Tikka T3 CTR in .223 if you like the Tikka T3 action.
 
#3
PBWalsh said:
The Tikka Super Varmit is (unfortunately) not imported into the US from what I’ve read. Lotta folks on here like both the Bergara and Tikka T3 actions. Just get which one feels better for you.

Might also want to look at the Tikka T3 CTR in .223 if you like the Tikka T3 action.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Too bad on the Tikka not being in USA. The Bergara is a little heavy (9.5 pounds i think) but its well balanced. Maybe I'll just get a CZ in .204 I know they are available and shoot pretty good.
 
#4
Yeah I think one would be nice for a cost efficient palma rifle. Oh well. 9.5 ain't heavy for a precision rifle, thats actually light compared to most rifles here.

I suppose its all in what you want to do you the rifle though. You mentioned varmits so I’d assume you didn’t mind a medium to heavy rifle.
 
#8
Travclem said:
I'd pick a Tikka over a Bergara. Fit and finish is nicer IMO. I would not be buying anything from Dick's though.
Click to expand...
Oh Dicks is overpriced. I usually buy from a private arms dealer. Dicks is just close to my house and sometimes I just like to see what they have in stock.

Oh I like this gun, I'm a sucker for wood or laminate over plastic. Only 8 pounds too.

Sako 85
bc65c3d203.jpg
 
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#9
longrangers said:
do I have the Tikka t3x ctr 20" and load for it. Using Varget and Lapua Brass I'm getting 2750 fps outta the 140's and using imr 4166 an Lapua brass I'm getting 2950 fps out of the 123's . I've shot several 3 shot 1" group's at 500 yards with either combination which is something I've never done with any rifle plus only thing I've done to it is cut one coil outta the trigger spring to adjust down to 1.5 lb. Not saying which is better because I do not know but man I love this Tikka rifle....
Click to expand...

That is super shooting at 500 yards. I've never tried to shoot at a target that far away (yet) .25 and .32 at 100 yards is what my 17 wsm does (low wind). Not a chance it would be that tight further out.
 
#12
I saw I can get a Remington 700 ADL Varmint for like 400.00. (100.00 off) In 22-250, 223, 300, 6.5 creedmore.
I could get two guns for under 1k 223 and a creedmore, shoot them and see which round I like then get a better gun in the preferred caliber.

I read that the 700 ADL adcutally is a decent shooter and action. But it does not have a clip, its like built it and the stock is trash.
 
#13
Going with a cheap Remington rifle in 223 makes little sense to me. A 223 barrel will last 5000 shots or more before it needs replaced. So that’s approximately $2000 worth of ammo sent down a barrel that is more than likely not very accurate. Spend your money on something decent the first time you buy. And just a friendly heads up it’s magazine not clip. And also Creedmoor is correct spelling.
 
#14
If looking at a cheap Remington 700, you’d be MUCH better off buying a Howa 1500 barreled action from Brownells and drop it it a Boyd’s Pro Varmit Stock or another stock.
 
#15
The HMR PRO is that price for a reason. It’s a super nice package for an out of the box offering. I would take the PRO over a tikka any day. Maybe tikka over standard HMR tho.... that’s a much harder decision.
 
#16
Avoid the 700.

Tikka and Bergara are both good. Whichever fits your budget and shooting needs is the right choice - neither is a bad option. My vote would be Tikka, but that's not a negative to Bergara at all - I've just had some good experiences with my Tikkas.
 
#17
Codiekfx400 said:
Going with a cheap Remington rifle in 223 makes little sense to me. A 223 barrel will last 5000 shots or more before it needs replaced. So that’s approximately $2000 worth of ammo sent down a barrel that is more than likely not very accurate. Spend your money on something decent the first time you buy. And just a friendly heads up it’s magazine not clip. And also Creedmoor is correct spelling.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the corrections, did not mean to irritate you will the creedmoor mispelling or the using clip instead of the proper term "Magazine"

I have a buddy that thinks the opposite, that buying a high dollar gun with a barrel that will wear out in just as many rounds is dumb. Better to buy a couple of cheaper guns and see which caliber I really like. The remingtons 700s are suppose to have high precision and if the shooter is accurate it might not be a bad gun. I am not crazy about it having a built in magazine vs a detatchable one.
 
#18
Remington has been having a lot of QC issues lately, so "high precision" is a bit of a stretch here lately. More like playing the Lotto.

I'd vote for the T-3. Just order from Jason at Eurooptics, and have it shipped to your LGS. You could even iquire if they have a SH discount on them...

https://www.eurooptic.com/tikka-t3x-varmint-rifles.aspx
 
#19
patriot07 said:
Avoid the 700.

Tikka and Bergara are both good. Whichever fits your budget and shooting needs is the right choice - neither is a bad option. My vote would be Tikka, but that's not a negative to Bergara at all - I've just had some good experiences with my Tikkas.
Click to expand...
Appreciate the imput on the 700.
 
#20
#21
I called Euro on the Tikka but they only have it in 1/8" twist not 1/12.
Tikka T3x Varmint .223 Rem Rifle JRTXH312

I like to blow up the varmints with lighter bullets. 40gr I think 1/12 in .223 would be better. I could get one in 22-250 in 1/14.
 
#22
Trust me, a .223 with 55gr Noslers will blow some stuff up. (Even had the head come off one PD last year at 200yds, went straight up about 20yds). With modern powders, 55gr bullets (which stabilize fine in a 1/8 twist) are achieving velocities in line with the older powders and 40gr bullets.

Don't over think this. A hit, is a hit, is a hit. With frangible bullets today, everything explodes.
 
#23
MarinePMI said:
Trust me, a .223 with 55gr Noslers will blow some stuff up. (Even had the head come off one PD last year at 200yds, went straight up about 20yds). With modern powders, 55gr bullets (which stabilize fine in a 1/8 twist) are achieving velocities in line with the older powders and 40gr bullets.

Don't over think this. A hit, is a hit, is a hit. With frangible bullets today, everything explodes.
Click to expand...

Yes I am thinking on this, maybe over thinking :) But I've read quite a few posts like this.

"Regarding the twist rate. Originally I was thinking of getting the 1/8 twist so that I can shoot larger grain bullets, however my local dealer advised me to go with the 1/12 twist for my intended purposes. He said he has had a lot of people come in and complain that their 1/8 twist Tikka's are not able to shoot the 52 grainers accurately enough due to overstabilisation and ended up with 2-3 inch groupings. He is also a gunsmith and says he has seen it all before with people wanting the the 1/8 twist and that he can't help me if mine won't shoot 52 grainers accurately."
 
#24
I think the general consensus of "over stabilizing" a bullet, is beginning to change. TBH, I have never seen it. Thin jackets and rough bore causing issues? Yes. But not over stabilization. You can't over stabilize a football when you throw it can you? Not sure why some would think physics are different for bullets than for any other item being spun and launched. Shrug. Just shoot heavier bullets if it's a concern. KE=1/2 mv2
 
#25
A 1-8 twist is the way to go imo. I have multiple 1-8 twists and they all shoot the 50 gr vmax bullet exceptionally well. Will they shoot the 40gr vmax? I don't know have not tried. Will a 50 gr speer TNT work in a 1-8 twist? I doubt it but every other bullet 50 gr and heavier will shoot just fine.
 
#26
If you are just using the rifle to shoot prairie dogs I would look at a ar 15. The whole rifle will run you $800 to $1200 for a rifle that will shoot 1/2 to 3/4 Moa.
 
#27
Just saw this video on the Tikka in 223 1/8 twist. Not impressed at all. I'm use to .25 to .75 groups from my 17 rim fire. I thought center fire was suppose to be more not less precision.
 
#28
a 26" 22-250 will reach out farther than the .223 on pdogs. This matters if you're out with friends and there's a limited supply of dogs and you don't like to share. (the nearer ones usually go early in the season). Skip Dicks.
 
#29
Your video is not showing up on your post. What is your purpose for this rifle? What is your budget for this rifle? When you say accuracy is top priority what is your accuracy expectations for the rifle?
 
#30
Biff2 said:
Just saw this video on the Tikka in 223 1/8 twist. Not impressed at all. I'm use to .25 to .75 groups from my 17 rim fire. I thought center fire was suppose to be more not less precision.
Click to expand...
I'd be leery of any video showing groups. For one, how do you know it's not the shooter or ammo? Secondly, that particular sample of rifle is a test case of one. Crowd source the accuracy, and you'll usually get a better estimate of potential accuracy. I think many of us here can say that Tikka's are generally a VERY accurate rifle right out of the box.
 
#32
hollowoutadime said:
a 26" 22-250 will reach out farther than the .223 on pdogs. This matters if you're out with friends and there's a limited supply of dogs and you don't like to share. (the nearer ones usually go early in the season). Skip Dicks.
Click to expand...

Lol they don't share the p.dogs? I call all closer shots to be rim fire only, sorry folks I need a use for my WSM.

I guess I should get a 204 then or maybe a 6.5 CM to get them far dogs.
 
#33
MarinePMI said:
I'd be leery of any video showing groups. For one, how do you know it's not the shooter or ammo? Secondly, that particular sample of rifle is a test case of one. Crowd source the accuracy, and you'll usually get a better estimate of potential accuracy. I think many of us here can say that Tikka's are generally a VERY accurate rifle right out of the box.
Click to expand...

Its like the 5th post or video Ive seen on the 1/8 twist tikka. I'm saying I'm not sure I want one in 1/8. Maybe 1/12 twist for lighter bullets bu they don't have a 1/12. I think the 1/8th is for people shooting longer and heavier bullets.
 
#34
Codiekfx400 said:
Your video is not showing up on your post. What is your purpose for this rifle? What is your budget for this rifle? When you say accuracy is top priority what is your accuracy expectations for the rifle?
Click to expand...

Use on Woodchucks, Pdogs, small game and paper punching. No interest in AR platform.

At least as good or better than my 17 wsm at 100 yards. .25-.75 inch. In 20mph wind it will open to .75 to over 1". That is using cheap rim fire ammo. If I step up to center fire and shoot worse yet pay more for ammo I will be disappointed.

Price range $400-2000. I like a good bang for the buck. If I pay 2k but it it groups at 2" I think I would rather have a $600.00 cz that does 1/2" groups.
 
#35
Here is a option that would meet all your requirements a MPA PCR Rifle https://masterpiecearms.com/shop/mpa-ba-lite-pcr-competition-rifle/ As far as a cz 223 rifle goes I believe they are 1-9 twist. I personally have a cz 204 ruger Rifle and mine would not meet your accuracy requirements with factory ammo. Phil at Mpa is the guy to talk to on the accuracy guarantee for the pcr Rifle. Hope this helps.
 
#37
MarinePMI said:
I think the general consensus of "over stabilizing" a bullet, is beginning to change. TBH, I have never seen it. Thin jackets and rough bore causing issues? Yes. But not over stabilization. You can't over stabilize a football when you throw it can you? Not sure why some would think physics are different for bullets than for any other item being spun and launched. Shrug. Just shoot heavier bullets if it's a concern. KE=1/2 mv2
Click to expand...

Well a football is tossed at like 40mph and 100 rpm vs a bullet doing 4000fps and 200,000 rpm. Not quite apples to apples comparison. I think there is some argument as to exactly why they don't shoot well with too many rpms (ie mild casting imperfections get magnified) but it seems to be pretty well documented that certain twist rates work best certain bullet lengths or weight in a particular caliber and gun.
 
#38
Codiekfx400 said:
Here is a option that would meet all your requirements a MPA PCR Rifle https://masterpiecearms.com/shop/mpa-ba-lite-pcr-competition-rifle/ As far as a cz 223 rifle goes I believe they are 1-9 twist. I personally have a cz 204 ruger Rifle and mine would not meet your accuracy requirements with factory ammo. Phil at Mpa is the guy to talk to on the accuracy guarantee for the pcr Rifle. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
Yes I bet that is a shooter. But I'm not really into the AR looks, more traditional hunting rifle. I'm leaning heavy towards a Sako 85 in .204 or maybe a cooper.
 
#39
Physics are physics; we don't get to choose when to ignore them or not. As to imperfections, no duh; they affect performance.

My point was, as manufacturing techniques improve, and an understanding of ballistics improve (aka some of the coning theory stuff coming to light), we are beginning to realize that you can't really "over stabilize" a bullet. You can deform the crap out of it, trying to shove it down a barrel with too fast a twist, but if the bullet remains non-deformed, spinning it faster doesn't hurt it (except maybe the yield strength of the jacket in relation to the centrifugal force exerted on it from too high an RPM), and can actually improve stability and thus down range accuracy.

The whole "hyper stabilization" seems to be showing some significant promise, with real world tests and data to prove the concept. Now whether it becomes practical or not is a whole other debate, but I think we are heading down that path. One day (I think), we're going to look back at this time and shake our collective heads at the crude understanding we had of external ballistics.
 
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#40
MarinePMI said:
Physics are physics; we don't get to choose when to ignore them or not. As to imperfections, no duh; they affect performance.

My point was, as manufacturing techniques improve, and an understanding of ballistics improve (aka some of the coning theory stuff coming to light), we are beginning to realize that you can't really "over stabilize" a bullet. You can deform the crap out of it, trying to shove it down a barrel with too fast a twist, but if the bullet remains non-deformed, spinning it faster doesn't hurt it (except maybe the yield strength of the jacket in relation to the centrifugal force exerted on it from too high an RPM), and can actually improve stability and thus down range accuracy.

The whole "hyper stabilization" seems to be showing some significant promise, with real world tests and data to prove the concept. Now whether it becomes practical or not is a whole other debate, but I think we are heading down that path. One day (I think), we're going to look back at this time and shake our collective heads at the crude understanding we had of external ballistics.
Click to expand...

Yes I hear you on that and agree. My undergrad was in physics. :).

I've hunted a bunch when younger then took a break. We never looked at ballistics much then. I'm new to the centerfire/ballistics game.
With todays high speed cameras and technology I would have thought this would have been put to rest. I was also thinking that tighter twist rates cause more heating of the barrel for a given caliber. (smooth bore being the least)

Called on that Sako Vamint .204 can get one for around $1,600 inc shipping. But they don't import the threaded/suppressor version. They said if I get it threaded I would void all the warranty. Like if I have a smith do it and he screws it up I'm SOL.
 
#41
A fast twist on a light for caliber varmint bullet (ever higher rpm) can cause jacket separation. 62gr Barnes Varmint Grenade in .243 on an 8 twist 26" barrel was a nogo for me.
 
#50
I'm not going to say you need a 1-12 twist. I think the P dogs would be just as dead with 55 grainers VMAX as a 40, and you could shoot some heavier stuff at the range... But if you want a 1-12 (and so much of all this is based on wants and not needs), CZ has you covered. My 527 loves 40 grainers and does ok with the 52 but won't go heavier without complaining. If I could go back (and they offered it) I probably would've gotten a 1-8 or 1-9 for some versatility. But hey, it's about what you want and if you're not going to sleep at night with the 1-8 then put your money up and just buy a 1-12 and be done with it.
 
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