Advanced Marksmanship Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

[jeffersonv]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Another +1 for Soberbiker's pic and explanation.

His pic is worth a thousand words.
My routine and technique is much like his in breathing and letting my rifle come down to rest on the target.
I think this is the best we can do from this position with the rifles we shoot.
Relaxation is key. So is practice.

 

[I'm in]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I combine a lot of the techniques mentioned here including hip forward, elbow down into hip and using my fingers. I also use a vertical line method to "Time" my shot. It really comes down to trigger control IMHO and the more dryfire, pellets or .22s you shoot the better. I got my own set of silhouettes and that made the practice much more enjoyable. Add in a couple friends and you have yourself a little friendly competition. That makes me more serious about my technique and prevents me from going thru the motions and practicing bad habits which is obviously worse that not practicing at all.

 

[Ammo dog 2311]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I have posted this but will do it again. Marines train for the off hand, it's part of qualifying. When your at a comp. the first string was 20rds standing at 200 yds with irons and so on. You win our lose here. Body alignment is most important. Move your rear foot to get that. Don't muscle your sites.
You will find a pattern of sight picture. Mine is a figure 8. When you know your pattern then it's trigger control. There is no time for the slow squeeze. You can't hold a proper site picture standing for long. Try the consoled mash on the trigger. I did not make this up. Was shown to me by some world class shooters. We were visited by the marine corps rifle team and got hands on instruction.
Keep your support hand close to the receiver. Try to rest our elbow on your hip bone if possible and lean back. Also pull your elbow across your body to try to tighten up your position.
Try holding the rifle in between your thumb and index finger palm up. Pull slightly in with trigger hand.
Practice is the biggest factor for well Aimed shots. You need to shoot hundreds of round every day for weeks to get good at it. We would snap in on for days before we even went to the range. Then a full week of range time before a comp.
An artificial aid for the support hand is a good trick. If you have a shirt with top pockets then put something in the pocket to help your support hand from slipping down your body.
To sum it up # 1 is body alignment # 2 trigger control. This was stated already by the other posts here so believe it.

 

[I'm in]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Where would I go about finding one of those booklets???
I'm always looking for ways to get better. Thanks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shane C.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bone support, muscle relaxation.


</div></div>
Most people cant shoot off hand or other unsupported positions because they dont shoot off hand or unsupported</div></div>

This..................... Jbell hit a pin wheel with this statement.

We don't practice Offhand because our egos wont let us. We don't shoot as good off hand as we do other positions so to give us a warm fuzzy we practice our best positions so we get the good scores/groups. Its EGO.

The secret to off hand is trigger control.

Gary Anderson set the world record for offhand shooting in ISU shooting a long time ago. Its never been broken. He wrote a booklet we pass out to students at the CMP GSM Clinics which covers Offhand.

Get one of those booklets, besides offhand it covers all the fundamentals and positions used in rifle matches. </div></div>

 

[PSYOPS]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

From the CMP site:

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/c...note5=&max=

It may be of some help.....

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Off hand is best shot in the "hip slung" position. The elbow resting on the hip bone. Generally this equates to nothing but finger tips supporting the rifle somewhere just ahead of the magazine.

This position precludes a cheek weld generally associated with the prone sitting and kneeling positions. The sight picture ratio, compared to the prone and kneeling positions, will change significantly.

I the proper upright position, even with a heavy barreled rifle, there should be no significant, vertical movement in the sight picture. There will be, however, a drastic increase in the lateral movement of the barrel, unless the body is constrained in a good shooting jacket.

Timing of the laterl drift from left to right and back and knowledge of the trigger pull is of PARAMOUNT importance.

Once into the rythm of the lateral muzzle swing, one must be able to time the barrel movement into the target with the trigger squeeze and lock time.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Other than that, lean up against something.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Experiment both with and without the 'chicken wing'. I find that my best position varies with the firing hand's grip design.

I 'chicken wing' with inline handgrips like the M-1 and M-14. I pull down the elbow against the flank with the AR-15/M-16's pistol grip.

About positions; if it isn't comfortable, it isn't working.

Greg

 

[mis-guided child2]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Bone on bone, NPA, relax muscle groups and breath control. You cannot eliminate movement in off hand totally, so control it.( as best as possible). Ammo dog described it as I learned it. Horizontal figure eights.
In your mind turn an 8 on it's side, and minutely manipulate the rifle to duplicate the sideways 8, with the center "x" of the sideways 8 at center mass of the target.. For me, when I'm on the left hand of the sideways 8 I am moving in a clockwise rotation. At 12 o'clock, of the left half of the sideways 8 I increase my trigger pull and hopefully just before finding the x of said sideways 8, on the downward slope, I get a loud bang and I follow through as much as possible. If not, I relax my trigger pressure and start over.
I also "attempt" to time my natural pause in breath, exhale side, with said bang.
All that being said, dry firing in the above sequence builds the required muscle memory, and can give a lot of feedback if your paying attention. As with any shooting discipline, consitancy rules.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

My best standing scores came after I became acquainted with a "Double Blind" practice schedule. Re-building the text book position for each shot, this 50 minute exercise increases stamina, picture memory, and muscle memory. The exercise alternates dry firing and live firing, a total of 40 shots with shot calls plotted for both dry fired shots as well as live fired shots. The spotting scope is not taken to the firing line since the idea is to refrain from making any sight adjustment or corrections for perceived shooter error. At the end of the session strikes can then be plotted. There should be a corollary to called plots and this serves to help the shooter refine his zero. I followed this practice schedule and went from an average of 92 percent to an average of 95 percent. Now, I can't say the practice schedule was totally the key to my performance gains as I also replaced my Jewell trigger with a GA trigger, which has a much faster lock time but for any aspiring HP shooter here ya might want to try out this sort of practice schedule.

I have never really embraced the standing position or undertaken to be successful with it as I just don't have the sort of discipline it takes. It may be why I don't have much interest in HP these days and have focused on NRA LR which is for me much easier. Years ago I liked difficult, but today I like easy.

One more thing, although the rifle never really stops moving in the standing position, with a good NPA adjustment, movement can be contained or confined to the 10 ring. And, unless the shooter gets too aggressive with the trigger a good hit is assured. I've never subscribed to the timed movement theory although I know some of the best shooters on the planet will use such a strategy when anxiety keeps them from settling down.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Trigger control, and 'duck blind' references:

Basic offhand shooting concept; the 'wobble zone'. Just simply forget any expectations of a steady sight picture. It will not happen naturally, and any effort to force it unnaturally will simply put the shooter into 'overcorrection mode'.

No matter what you do, that target bull will gyrate around the front sight. If you actually believe and accept the concept of NPA and muscle relaxation, that gyration should settle down <span style="font-style: italic">a bit</span>. That's the best you can expect, and 'something is better than nothing'. It is unrealistic to expect it to ever go away.

So offhand shooting and sight picture becomes a matter of faith. If you relax and use NPA correctly, the wobble zone will diminish to something that's more acceptable than anything else that actually works. Cleaning the Offhand Target is an exercise in frustration. We need to 'cool our jets', do our best, and try to drop fewer points every time we do it.

Two ways are popular.

One is the 'wingshot' concept, where the bull is treated like a moving clay bird, and the shooter comes along from 'behind' the moving bull and 'trips' the shot as the sights pass through the proper alignment. Trigger control follows the 'snap shot' principle. I am not an aerial shotgunner, and most practiced shotgunners can do this better than I.

The other is the 'trust the wobble zone' concept, where the shooter refines NPA and relaxation, trusts that these actions are actually working to reduce error, and initiates a conventional 'slow trigger squeeze'. It can be nerve wracking, but it's always given me my best Offhand scores.

I am also a thorough believer in offhand rimfire practice, and a lot of it. 50ft, indoor in Winter, single feed, over, and over, and over. Just do it, and keep in doing it. It has always helped me. A break-open air rifle is every bit as good at 15ft in the basement.

Greg

 

[Trapshooter12]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I was searching the web for how to use the sling while shooting and I found an old WWII vid showing how to get slung up. I used the techniques they showed plus Chuck N IOTA on a dot about the size of a period dot and out of approximately 8 shoots I won all but one and I placed second in that one after a shoot off.

Before I found that vid I was placing in the middle of the pack.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

try silhouette shooting / competition, either highpower or smallbore (rimfire).

http://www.riflesilhouette.com/

http://www.zediker.com/articles/zcomlawt.pdf

similiar searches concerning silhouette will give you a whole bunch of tips on your frame, breathing, trigger control, follow through, grip, etc.

combine that with sling use tutorials and with practice you'll have a winning combination.

for me, (without a sling) starting square to the target (like teeing up in golfing), then moving my rear leg more toward my six, raising the muzzle of the rifle up and letting the butt lock into my shoulder, elbow out, dropping the reticle onto the target, slight cant to the rifle actually using the chest for some support, locking my forward gripping elbow to my side / hip and leaning back just a tad seems to work (although recoil management sucks while leaning back). i also have found (for me) that using my forward gripping hand webbing between my index and thumb pushing rearward against the trigger guard works well to "lock" my upper body into place, and aids with pushing the butt into my shoulder. it's just is more comfortable for me.

pivot at the hips, don't try to raise the rifle with the arms, you'll fatigue quicker.

i also like to concentrate more on the reticle than the target, for me it helps the mind games with the wobble. breathing in and releasing, when the color of the target is behind the crosshairs at the bottom of releasing the breath, i squeeze.

i've been tinkering with using the tip of my finger against the tip of the trigger and dragging the bottom of the trigger guard with the bottom of the finger. seems to be working.

i also tend to pull up on my off hand shots, so either i aim just below the intended POI, or adust a little lower on the turret.

that's what works for me, but maybe not for anyone else.

greg's input is golden.

 

[Break Bad]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I'm very new to positional shooting and have been trying a lot of different off hand techniques with a heavy rifle (21 lbs empty). So far I do not like elbow on hip, perhaps because I have a boney hip, instead I widen my stance WAY out and actually bend my knees a bit. It may look like i'm taking a dump, but it allows me to rest my elbow more on my waist-line / belly. Also I prefer resting the rifle's center of gravity on my fingers instead of a limp wrist, it seems to give it more 'suspension' for lack of a better term.

I also fight with shoulder pressure. I try to keep light pressure but notice if I start getting shaky, pulling back on the shoulder a bit more helps, and may add a second or two more if needed. The heavy barrel makes my rig very front heavy which I assume has its pros and cons.

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Another picture contribution. My wife took this picture of me during a stage at the Findlay Cup. I like the angle because it shows the alignment of my forward leg, hip and elbow in an almost perfectly straight line.

 

[Jaxdialation]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Thanks for the picture. You have your support hand much closer to your body than I usually shoot. I put mine out further, and as a result have to cock my back more to get the hip support.

I will see if your style works better!

I -will- myself to practice off hand at home and the range. Honestly, I never see anyone else shooting live rounds off hand at the ranges I visit. I assume they dry-fire at home.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

^ picture is very similiar to my stance, pivoting at the hips.

doesn't do much for recoil absorbsion, but keeps me steady to reduce the "wobble"

 

[bogeybrown]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Here's a tip a Marine Sniper Instructor gave me, that I continued to use myself and passed along to shooters when I was a Primary Marksmanship Instructor:
Unless there's a rule in effect preventing you from doing it, try this:
If you're a right handed shooter, place your wallet or a rolled pair of socks in your left shirt pocket. Bring your left arm tight up against your chest with your forearm touching to your bicep. Push up against the socks with your left arm, to where you're pushing that bulge in your pocket toward your left armpit. Cinch down your sling to lock in that arm. Your palm will be facing up, turn your hand so your fingers are towards your shoulder like a shot-putter. The socks act as a sort of rest or point of resistance to brace your left arm against rather than using muscles.
Turn your body so that your feet are AT LEAST 90 degrees to the target, if you can actually angle your feet past 90 degrees pointing away from the target and swivel your upper body around to face the target even better. My buddy the Instructor actually stood facing with his BACK to the target and swiveled his whole upper body around. You'll find the right angle when your muzzle naturally points at the target with the fore end of your weapon resting on your open palm.
For off-hand shooting we recommended and taught the "interrupted trigger squeeze" method. This works on the premise that every shooter has "wobble" in the off-hand position. If your position is good, the wobble should resemble a sideways figure "8" or infinity symbol. You only APPLY pressure to the trigger while the wobble is on target, you HOLD pressure while it's wobbling off-target, then APPLY pressure again as it's on target again. By doing this, and incrementally applying pressure only when you're on target, then (if done properly) your round can only fire while you are on target. This is NOT to be confused with JERKING the trigger as you wobble onto the target.

I apologize if I'm out of my lane as a newb on the forum. I know there's guys here that would shame me on a range. I was just fortunate to have some really good shooters (Marine Corps Rifle Team, Sniper Instructors, Distinguished Shooters)take the time to show me some tricks, and felt it only right to pass a few along to be considered and discarded as deemed appropriate.

S/F

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I think your post shows all here you have an informed opinion. I enjoyed reading it. I wish everyone here was as knowledgable as you. Of course, if that was the case there would be little interest in this forum, I'm sure. At any rate, thanks for the fresh perspective.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I agree with SS, your post is excellent.

Don't know if anyone has read Cpt Edward Crossman's book, "Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting" written after WWI.

His method of off hand is pretty much right on with that discribed by Aequitas. Also mirror's Col Macnab's POI.

 

[bogeybrown]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Thank you both. I'm was hesitant offering "advice" when I'm actually here to pick up what I can from those of you with alot more knowledge than me.

S/F

 

[PowderMeasure]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

All of this thread reminds me of my in the field shooting at running deer growing up. The methods mentioned here are some I used from others showing me how to shoot growing up. Yes the above methods here are more technical and have provided immense detail and I will be altering some of my positions in hopes it provides better shot placement! Thanks for all that contributed to this thread as I will be shooting offhand the next time at the range to see how well my shot placement results are out to 100. This will be interesting. Maybe an offhand competition is due! THANKS again!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

The NRA Light Rifle Qualification program was extremely helpful to me as a Winter substitute activity when I was still competing in NRA High Power.

Greg

 

[turbo54]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Historically, I've been a terrible shooter when not prone or close to it.

My partner and I have been shooting our 22s a lot over the last couple months to try and improve on this.

After a few sessions, I had a bit of an epiphany that has really helped.

Aside for building a position with good NPA, the trick that seems to work well for me is focusing 100% of my attention and concentration on the target, and where the bullet needs to strike it. Let the subconscious brain handle the trigger press, and the timing of it.

Somehow, magically, this seems to work.

 

[TorF]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I'll put in my share:

If possible make a .22lr duplicate of the high power rifle. Make sure to "copy" locktime by shortening the .22 barrel and use a barrel extention to duplicate balance. (HP@2600fps/24" barrel = 22LR@1300fps/12" barrel). After a lot of off hand practice, let's say 15000 .22lr, you have the same "automatic" rythm and timing in your HP rifle. (sorry for bad english..)

There is no problem shooting off hand with hi mag scopes. I shoot off hand moving target with 16x. What is more important is the type of reticle. Some of the "tactical" reticles are less than ideal for off hand shooting. The "best" off hand reticles are dot, typical 1moa, or heavy post like the old german no. 1. On a tactical rifle for off hand shooting I think a symetrical reticle like regular mildot or "canadian" is the best.

Check out this off hand shooting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBXXPKV8NXM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_9QhFVMaXw

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

There is a ton of great advice in this thread! I have been studying HP techniques lately, and I’ll tell you that the guys that do it well are some amazing shots. I had the chance to visit extensively with one of these guys recently in California and consider myself extremely lucky to have had the chance to do so. I also had the opportunity to shoot some very old open sighted rifles that were also present on the range. My hat is off to all the HP guys and the accuracy that they can maintain with those rifles.

It has been said here and it is absolutely true that the best way to get good at something is to practice it. I have seen the pictures that have been posted I have no doubt that to master those techniques takes a considerable amount of time.

For my shooting with heavy rifles (15 pounds plus) I have taken a slightly different approach. I know for a fact that I do not have the strength to hold that rifle up and attain and keep a sight picture, I get a lot of wobble. What I have done is to approach it the same way I would a carbine. I simply bring the rifle up to my line of sight and check the position of the target to my reticle. It sounds simple, but I have spent a considerable amount of time testing my NPA to accomplish this. The way I practice it is to square up to the target with a forward aggressive stance. I then bring the scope up to my line of sight. The target will either be in the center of the reticle or it won’t. If it is not, (which is usually the case) I immediately drop the rifle back to the low ready and re-position my feet. I will repeat this until the target is exactly centered in the reticle. At this point, I consider the NPA to be good. I will then take a mental picture of where my feet are in relation to the target. This will help me repeat the proper position for the next time I am shooting from the standing. All that is needed at that point is to time bringing the rifle up to match the respiratory pause and apply proper trigger control and follow through. Wobble is significantly reduced because the rifle is only on target for a very short period of time.

It takes some time initially to get your feet in the right place. However, like anything else, the more you practice, the faster and better you get. I have found that if I try to hold the rifle in that position for too much time, it negates the drill. I am never holding the rifle up for more than about 1.5 seconds for either the NPA testing or the shot itself. It is a lot of “up” and “down” with the rifle, but much less now than when I first started.

I consider this to be another tool in the box for field shooting. It doesn’t require a sling and it is very quick. I also do not consider this to be a sole alternative to a more traditional HP technique. Practice both and be able to use both depending on the situation. I have been practicing the more traditional HP technique of late and I appreciate the pictures and links in this thread

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Thanks for sharing your experimentation with it. It appears you had some good coaching. I did not begin to win HP standing matches until I got some highly qualified instruction. Before that I was just a monkey see, monkey do shooter. Emulation was not enough however to comprehend the sort of rifle, shooter, and ground relationship which would produce the best results. A leading AMU shooter showed me a technique to get balance, as well as settle into my NPA and thereafter adjust it. From there I began a 50 minute a day dry firing routine which helped with picture and motor memory. I'm still learning but did set a standing record at the little club where I first competed after after having practiced my lessons for a few weeks. At any rate, I think the key is discipline, and unless there's first an indication that a leap of faith will produce results followed by the promice of some sort of reward for all the practice it takes to shoot really good standing scores I don't think most folks outside of the HP game would ever have the interest in learning this sort of stuff. It's just too much work.

 

[mk36]

Anyone here ever use a properly fitted USMC shooting jacket? Do they still make em? One of those plus a correctly adjusted sling made holding an M-1 in offhand pretty easy. The only problem? It was hard to breathe and my feet got tired...

you talk the talk...do you walk the walk?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Slings permitted in N/M Offhand? Hmmm...

A trick we used for 3-Gun Bullseye was to outline our foot positions with chalk after achieving the correct NPA during Prep. This facilitated resuming the proper NPA during the firing of the stage. Obviously, this only worked with a hard shooting floor surface.

Some of us carried that over to the N/M High Power Offhand Stage.

Our mottos were, "The match is won in Prone, and lost in Offhand", and "See the front sight, feel the trigger", which were reminders to us about how important a refined Offhand performance was to the entire effort.

Other lore suggested that the NPA needed to be refined (in all positions) so that it depended on muscular exertion as little as possible.

My preferred training for N/M offhand has been to do the NRA Light Rifle League routine over Winter, to maintain the necessary mental and physical capacities. Marksmanship always has been, and always will be, a perishable skill. It is also a physical sport that depends upon fitness and current muscle memory.

My Jacket is the G.P. Maes USMC Cotton shooter's jacket, properly altered/adjusted. It only really serves me effectively for the Offhand.

These days, my N/M competitive shooting phase is history. Most of my shooting is done from the bench.

...But I still strive to remember what went before; someone else may still benefit from it...

Greg