Tips on getting cartridge runout under .002"?

[QuietShootr]

Prior to switching to a Redding bushing neck die and a micrometer seating stem on my regular Redding seater, I couldn't get my .308 cartridge runout under .006. Now that I've made those changes, my runout is consistently .0021 (as measured with the Forster Case Inspector). I'm using Lapua brass, and I have checked my case neck thickness as well (it's OK).

Will I be able to get runout under .002 without turning necks?

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Prior to switching to a Redding bushing neck die and a micrometer seating stem on my regular Redding seater, I couldn't get my .308 cartridge runout under .006. Now that I've made those changes, my runout is consistently .0021 (as measured with the Forster Case Inspector). I'm using Lapua brass, and I have checked my case neck thickness as well (it's OK).

Will I be able to get runout under .002 without turning necks?

Runout can be caused by the expansion and contraction of the brass case itself, when body wall thincknesses vary throughout a specific case. The brass case will take on the shape of a banana, because the thinner sections don't contract at the same rate/amount as the thicker sections, so there's not a lot you can do.

What you want to do is measure fireformed cases for runout, if the Forster allows you to measure the bodies and necks in a separate step.

Once you eliminate this form of runout, or in the least, account for it, you can then move to the sizing step and remeasure. Then you'd move to the seating step and see what you see.

It's a multistep process to narrow down what exactly is inducing runout along the reloading/firing process.

.002" T.I.R. is where I feel that I'm safe. .004" T.I.R. and I'm going to try to minimize things a bit further.

Chris

 

[JGorski]

Like Chris mentioned, concentric case wall thickness in the neck will help out. You can try turning your round every so ofte as you seat the bullet, might help, ALSO.

 

[Enough Said]

Mica case neck lube after priming. Wipe off excess on the outer shoulders.
Redding dies and meticulous case prep is the key to low runout.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Mica case neck lube after priming. Wipe off excess on the outer shoulders.
Redding dies and meticulous case prep is the key to low runout.

Are you saying you use case neck lube after priming? If so, how do you know that your bullets won't move in handling?

 

[260shooter]

He is speaking of a dry lube on the inside of the case neck . I have used molly powder the same way. I believe it gives you more consistent bullet release.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Okay, can you recommend a brand, or is that a brand that he said? How much do you put on, and how do you apply? I am curious to try it.

 

[QuietShootr]

do you mean dry lube before seating a bullet?

 

[ChrisGarrett]

do you mean dry lube before seating a bullet?

Yeah...dust the inside of the necks with something before bullet seating. Dry mica powder is usually used for lubing the inside of the necks when sizing with an expander ball. It helps to not 'pull back out' the shoulders, when the case is withdrawn from the die.

If guys are 'wet tumbling', that SS media is doing such a good job, it rubs off the slick carbon deposit that is usually found inside of the necks...that gray color. This will cause more friction upon bullet seating, so a dry lube might be called for but I don't use wet tumbling and I don't lube the inside of the necks, before seating.

Right now, don't get too far ahead of yourself. If you can measure fired cases before sizing, at the case body and at the case neck, this will jump start you on your way to 'knowing' what's what.

.0021", I think was your number and that's more than sufficient.

Chris

 

[damoncali]

If you want a feel for what neck turning will accomplish, I got bored one night and measured 100 brand new Norma 6mmXC cases at three places around the neck. It wasn't too hard to find cases that were .001 thicker on one side of the neck than another, but ost showed less variation than that. Complete measurements here: Norma 6mm XC Brass

 

[QuietShootr]

I am SS wet tumbling, so that may be affecting it. On seating more bullets this afternoon, I found that my average seems to be .003-.004. These cases are on their fifth load, which I bet has more to do with it than anything else - I pulled out a couple of my 178gr AMAX loads from last summer (probably 2nd load or so) that were resized using an RCBS neck die, and their runout was .001-.002. I bet I would get a dramatic improvement just from getting new cases, but I don't see any Lapua in stock anywhere.

I wouldn't mind being able to use Winchester or something more readily available if I didn't have to spend so much time prepping it.

Yeah...dust the inside of the necks with something before bullet seating. Dry mica powder is usually used for lubing the inside of the necks when sizing with an expander ball. It helps to not 'pull back out' the shoulders, when the case is withdrawn from the die.

If guys are 'wet tumbling', that SS media is doing such a good job, it rubs off the slick carbon deposit that is usually found inside of the necks...that gray color. This will cause more friction upon bullet seating, so a dry lube might be called for but I don't use wet tumbling and I don't lube the inside of the necks, before seating.

Right now, don't get too far ahead of yourself. If you can measure fired cases before sizing, at the case body and at the case neck, this will jump start you on your way to 'knowing' what's what.

.0021", I think was your number and that's more than sufficient.

Chris

 

[QuietShootr]

OK. Measured a couple of fired cases that had been cleaned and decapped (not resized). At the body, there was no more than .0015 of runout (about 1/4" below the shoulder). On the neck, the runout was under .001".

 

[QuietShootr]

I DO do this. I seat about a quarter of the way, turn a quarter turn, seat another quarter, and so on.

Like Chris mentioned, concentric case wall thickness in the neck will help out. You can try turning your round every so ofte as you seat the bullet, might help, ALSO.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

If you are on fifth loading, why don't you try annealing? Several threads on this with links to articles on how to do it. Really not too hard, and it will soften the case necks again to improve function. I believe it will also help you with run out---could be wrong, but if the necks are getting too hard, they may be "expanding" differently when you seat the bullet, inducing run out.

The Art and Science of Annealing

This is a great article on annealing. Many people use a household propane torch and a drill with a deep well socket to hold the brass case. I do, it works very well, and you can do them around one every 10-12 seconds, so realistically, average 100 in 25-30 minutes, maybe a little faster.

 

[demolitionman]

I have 4x fires brass. With no case diameter trimming, run out on these with amax's and Hornady brass is typically .002 to .004. Brand new brass same bullet I consistently get runout at or below .002 with below being the majority. The more times I fire cases and re-use them, the more i find my bullet runout just ahead of the neck will be. Redding dies, very very very little case mouth lube (rolled nylon brush on lube pad), FL sized set to barely bump shoulder(die barely touches ram).

I need to learn the secrets to getting runout down on 3x fired cases.......!

 

[jwp6114]

i learned from some old timers in the BR game... some are trade secrets but i am not that competetive... so i will share.

any run out on bullet ogive at or below .003 is acceptable, make sure your using the "seat half way, rotate 180, seat all the way" trick. also if your resizing die is not floating on an o'ring that will help case neck and bullet run out. neck turning will help. unless you have a tight neck chamber, i would only turn down the high spots, do no t neck turn off too much material.

to get run out way down, necks need to be near zero, using floating die and neck turning helps. nad while seating bullets do the 180 trick.

try it out and let us know if that helps.

 

[QuietShootr]

Do I need to float a Redding bushing die?

in this particular instance, it sounds like my brass might be the problem.

 

[McCrazy]

Correct set-up for the bushing die is to screw the seater down to where it contacts the bushing, then loosen it 1/16th of a turn. This gives the bushing the space it needs to float.

 

[Jedi]

If this is for a TAK rig ... WHY?

holy crap you guys for sure cant shoot the difference so again why?

Still your time use it as ya see fit

 

[jwp6114]

Do I need to float a Redding bushing die?

in this particular instance, it sounds like my brass might be the problem.

float the die body on an o'ring... and yes the neck bushing should be as mentioned above...

 

[jwp6114]

If this is for a TAK rig ... WHY?

holy crap you guys for sure cant shoot the difference so again why?

Still your time use it as ya see fit

come out and watch me shoot some 1" groups at 600 yards my friend...

 

[damoncali]

If this is for a TAK rig ... WHY?

holy crap you guys for sure cant shoot the difference so again why?

Still your time use it as ya see fit

Because it helps, and most of what is required takes very little time, if any. It's just a matter of doing it right, and sometimes "right" is not obvious.

 

[jfields]

The lowest runout I have ever gotten was with 3X fired brass that a vendor here on the Hide washed in SS media and annealed. That stuff was like butter going through the dies. There is a lot of good advice in this thread, but I do believe that softer, more supple brass goes over the expander ball easier and doesn't induce as much runout by stretching the necks and shoulders.

Just my .02c.

-Shaky

 

[QuietShootr]

What's a TAK rig?

And I assure you I can see the difference at 1000.

If this is for a TAK rig ... WHY?

holy crap you guys for sure cant shoot the difference so again why?

Still your time use it as ya see fit

 

[QuietShootr]

Yep, did that.

Correct set-up for the bushing die is to screw the seater down to where it contacts the bushing, then loosen it 1/16th of a turn. This gives the bushing the space it needs to float.

OK - I don't think it's the sizing. I measured runout before and after neck sizing and got what appears to be .00025 improvement. Still under .0005 total indicated runout on the neck. So it appears that whatever runout I'm getting is induced in the seating process?

 

[Sniper Uncle]

I suspect your case necks are getting hard. Try annealing a few and see if it helps. It won't take but a few minutes, and it might just solve your problem.

 

[QuietShootr]

Can't really do that right without Tempilaq, can I?

I suspect your case necks are getting hard. Try annealing a few and see if it helps. It won't take but a few minutes, and it might just solve your problem.

Edit, nevermind, fuck it, I just did three by hand. They look ok, I have a nice bluish color and a definite anneal line. Will report back after I test them.

 

[QuietShootr]

OK - I annealed three and measured the necks. The runout is almost imperceptible. So I seated three bullets, and my runout varied between .0015 and .004.

I think I can safely assume that the runout is happening in the seating process, unless I'm missing something here. What now?

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Can't really do that right without Tempilaq, can I?



Edit, nevermind, fuck it, I just did three by hand. They look ok, I have a nice bluish color and a definite anneal line. Will report back after I test them.

Yes, I believe that you can do it without tempilaq. Best way IMO is to be in a semi-dark room. Then, you can see the neck start to "glow" Stop at this time. It should take about 8 seconds or so. I aim the flame at the shoulder of the case. My torch has three "jets" in the base of the flame. I hold the slowly spinning case so that two "jets" straddle the shoulder, and the third jet is at the base of the neck. I count like seconds, and usually see the "glow" just begin to start about 7-8 count. You don't want to go too far, although I suppose if you were just barely too far, you could resize afterward, and that would work the brass so the hardening would begin again. I'm really not sure on that though. I'd prefer to err on the not quite far enough, as it can be done over again. The color will deepen a bit as time goes by---next half hour or so, so you don't want to go for the "full" color change while heating it---you might go too far. You can do a test for "springy-ness" with a pair of vise-grips, as explained in the article I linked above.
Good luck with it, interested in your findings,

 

[Enough Said]

I think the dry neck lube I'm using is a readily-available RCBS product. It's that little white pod of powder packaged in a plastic bag. I dumped the contents of he "pod" into a medicine bottle and added some 7 1/2 steel shot. The shot keeps it from clumping and assists in not leaving too much on the brass.

Basically whatever will make the seating process more smooth... I want that. I have not had a problem with the bullets creeping due to handling or recoil. I shoot suppressed. I use a .367 bushing in my Redding Sizing Die.

My runout is usually less than .002 and my groups are pretty tight. Therefore I don't change what I'm doing.

 

[QuietShootr]

I use the Redding dry lube in the plastic tub with the ceramic applicator beads. my loaded round neck OD is .367.

I think the dry neck lube I'm using is a readily-available RCBS product. It's that little white pod of powder packaged in a plastic bag. I dumped the contents of he "pod" into a medicine bottle and added some 7 1/2 steel shot. The shot keeps it from clumping and assists in not leaving too much on the brass.

Basically whatever will make the seating process more smooth... I want that. I have not had a problem with the bullets creeping due to handling or recoil. I shoot suppressed. I use a .367 bushing in my Redding Sizing Die.

My runout is usually less than .002 and my groups are pretty tight. Therefore I don't change what I'm doing.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

I think the dry neck lube I'm using is a readily-available RCBS product. It's that little white pod of powder packaged in a plastic bag. I dumped the contents of he "pod" into a medicine bottle and added some 7 1/2 steel shot. The shot keeps it from clumping and assists in not leaving too much on the brass.

Basically whatever will make the seating process more smooth... I want that. I have not had a problem with the bullets creeping due to handling or recoil. I shoot suppressed. I use a .367 bushing in my Redding Sizing Die.

My runout is usually less than .002 and my groups are pretty tight. Therefore I don't change what I'm doing.

Thanks. Might that be the shit that came in a 12ga slug size pod with my RCBS Case-prep Center? I haven't opened it yet, so it should be excellent. I'll have to try it. I'm still waiting on my neck-bushing FL size die kit, too.

 

[QuietShootr]

I'm going to try again, I suspect I didn't do it long enough.

Yes, I believe that you can do it without tempilaq. Best way IMO is to be in a semi-dark room. Then, you can see the neck start to "glow" Stop at this time. It should take about 8 seconds or so. I aim the flame at the shoulder of the case. My torch has three "jets" in the base of the flame. I hold the slowly spinning case so that two "jets" straddle the shoulder, and the third jet is at the base of the neck. I count like seconds, and usually see the "glow" just begin to start about 7-8 count. You don't want to go too far, although I suppose if you were just barely too far, you could resize afterward, and that would work the brass so the hardening would begin again. I'm really not sure on that though. I'd prefer to err on the not quite far enough, as it can be done over again. The color will deepen a bit as time goes by---next half hour or so, so you don't want to go for the "full" color change while heating it---you might go too far. You can do a test for "springy-ness" with a pair of vise-grips, as explained in the article I linked above.
Good luck with it, interested in your findings,

 

[Cproflow]

You may want to ensure your seater plug is not the culprit. They can be honed/polished out a bit to account for VLD profiles. It is hard for a manufacturer to design something for every possible bullet profile, so a modification may be in order.
I had this done on my Forster die (was free, after discussing some of my runout concerns with their tech). You send them your bullet choices and your seater...they take care of the rest.
I feel it made a small improvement...as far as measurements, but I don't have access to long range shooting, so I can't verify that I can shoot the difference (yet!) in the field.

 

[milo 2.0]

Yes, I believe that you can do it without tempilaq. Best way IMO is to be in a semi-dark room. Then, you can see the neck start to "glow" Stop at this time. It should take about 8 seconds or so. I aim the flame at the shoulder of the case. My torch has three "jets" in the base of the flame. I hold the slowly spinning case so that two "jets" straddle the shoulder, and the third jet is at the base of the neck. I count like seconds, and usually see the "glow" just begin to start about 7-8 count. You don't want to go too far, although I suppose if you were just barely too far, you could resize afterward, and that would work the brass so the hardening would begin again. I'm really not sure on that though. I'd prefer to err on the not quite far enough, as it can be done over again. The color will deepen a bit as time goes by---next half hour or so, so you don't want to go for the "full" color change while heating it---you might go too far. You can do a test for "springy-ness" with a pair of vise-grips, as explained in the article I linked above.
Good luck with it, interested in your findings,

Uncle,
I thought the consesus was to anneal, then size. Because annealing changes the properties of the brass.

Op, I'm sorry, I disagree with the guys saying annealing will help runout. It may affect neck tension, but I can't see how it effects runout.
I'd say the best way insure low runout would be to neck turn virgin brass, even Lapua and Norma can benefit from it. I've shot some tremendous groups at distance with rounds that measured .003-.006" runout. I even went as far as buying a coax and Redding comp dies to help, it really hasn't.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Uncle,
I thought the consesus was to anneal, then size. Because annealing changes the properties of the brass.

Op, I'm sorry, I disagree with the guys saying annealing will help runout. It may affect neck tension, but I can't see how it effects runout.
I'd say the best way insure low runout would be to neck turn virgin brass, even Lapua and Norma can benefit from it. I've shot some tremendous groups at distance with rounds that measured .003-.006" runout. I even went as far as buying a coax and Redding comp dies to help, it really hasn't.

Yes, that is correct, but I thought he said he had sized them all ready. May be wrong on this.

My reason for thinking he should try the annealing is that I think---I can't prove it, as I have no brass that is that old yet---that 5x shot brass is probably getting hard. I believe the OP stated that his brass was showing minor to no run-out on the case, then when he seats the bullet he gets run-out. I think---again, I can't prove it---that it is possible for hard brass to expand differently causing run-out. Why do I think this crazy thought----well, If it couldn't be true, why wouldn't you have many neck cracks instead of one when the neck cracks. There is in my mind obvious evidence of a weak spot in the case neck. Say the neck was soft enough not to crack this time, but would crack next time or upon firing or sizing next time, then the weakness is all ready there, just not pronounced enough to have cracked all ready. This is an unproven theory in my mind, and I was suggesting that the OP give annealing a try to see if it helped. I would try it myself, but lack the age of brass to do so with.
There may very well be a host of those out there more experienced than I, who know this won't work. If so, I would love to be educated, especially as to why this is not a valid theory. I always am open to correction and education.
I have not worked with run-out yet, as I am not convinced in my own ability to shoot well enough to see the difference yet. Run-out seems to be a somewhat subjective thing anyway, as some folks swear it makes a difference and others say it doesn't, so I was planning to overcome other deficiencies in my shooting before I tackle that one. It is also true that a lot of my theories and thoughts are based on the book knowledge more than the actual practice so far, as I have much more time to study, research and glean info than I have to shoot and craft ammo. I wish this was the other way around, as the crafting and shooting is more fun than the studying. This being said, the more I can learn, the more info I have to adjust my theories and thoughts, hopefully with the result that I can make the most of my time when I can craft ammo and shoot said ammo.

I would agree with you whole-heartedly on taking a good look at the neck wall thickness and uniforming it. That should help some with run-out, as when you check uniformity before bullet seating, you are only seeing the outside of the neck. Any thickness differences could be internal run-out which you aren't seeing until the bullet is seated. But, do you think that would account for .002 or so with good brass? Or possibly does the brass neck thickness change with resizing over several firings? These are questions I don't know the answers to, and before today would not have even thought about. Good questions to add to my things to learn about.

I love this sport, as the more I learn about it, the more questions I have to find answers to, and the less I realize I know about it---good for humility, No?

 

[Sniper Uncle]

You may want to ensure your seater plug is not the culprit. They can be honed/polished out a bit to account for VLD profiles. It is hard for a manufacturer to design something for every possible bullet profile, so a modification may be in order.
I had this done on my Forster die (was free, after discussing some of my runout concerns with their tech). You send them your bullet choices and your seater...they take care of the rest.
I feel it made a small improvement...as far as measurements, but I don't have access to long range shooting, so I can't verify that I can shoot the difference (yet!) in the field.

As far as honing/polishing the seating die, a Hornady Tech suggested taking a bullet and chucking it up in a drill, then putting some lapping compound on it and lapping the seating plug with that. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but this might work, and you wouldn't have to wait on them to do it and ship both ways....

 

[demolitionman]

As far as honing/polishing the seating die, a Hornady Tech suggested taking a bullet and chucking it up in a drill, then putting some lapping compound on it and lapping the seating plug with that. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but this might work, and you wouldn't have to wait on them to do it and ship both ways....

Just make damn sure the arbor isn't bent to hell like all of mine are.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Just make damn sure the arbor isn't bent to hell like all of mine are.

Good point there...I'll have to figure a way to check this before I do it---maybe use the concentricity guage on it???? I'll have to ponder on that for a bit.
Thanks for the thought.

 

[Jedi]

What's a TAK rig?

And I assure you I can see the difference at 1000.

If you massage your brass more than your woman then you must be a Bench rest guy

Your fighting run out on 5x brass that has not been annealed
Seems your not even sure how to set dies up correctly
but your concerned with run out

learn the correct way to setup your dies before you worry about run out on 5x shot brass
press on

 

[milo 2.0]

Yes, that is correct, but I thought he said he had sized them all ready. May be wrong on this.

My reason for thinking he should try the annealing is that I think---I can't prove it, as I have no brass that is that old yet---that 5x shot brass is probably getting hard. I believe the OP stated that his brass was showing minor to no run-out on the case, then when he seats the bullet he gets run-out. I think---again, I can't prove it---that it is possible for hard brass to expand differently causing run-out. Why do I think this crazy thought----well, If it couldn't be true, why wouldn't you have many neck cracks instead of one when the neck cracks. There is in my mind obvious evidence of a weak spot in the case neck. Say the neck was soft enough not to crack this time, but would crack next time or upon firing or sizing next time, then the weakness is all ready there, just not pronounced enough to have cracked all ready. This is an unproven theory in my mind, and I was suggesting that the OP give annealing a try to see if it helped. I would try it myself, but lack the age of brass to do so with.
There may very well be a host of those out there more experienced than I, who know this won't work. If so, I would love to be educated, especially as to why this is not a valid theory. I always am open to correction and education.
I have not worked with run-out yet, as I am not convinced in my own ability to shoot well enough to see the difference yet. Run-out seems to be a somewhat subjective thing anyway, as some folks swear it makes a difference and others say it doesn't, so I was planning to overcome other deficiencies in my shooting before I tackle that one. It is also true that a lot of my theories and thoughts are based on the book knowledge more than the actual practice so far, as I have much more time to study, research and glean info than I have to shoot and craft ammo. I wish this was the other way around, as the crafting and shooting is more fun than the studying. This being said, the more I can learn, the more info I have to adjust my theories and thoughts, hopefully with the result that I can make the most of my time when I can craft ammo and shoot said ammo.

I would agree with you whole-heartedly on taking a good look at the neck wall thickness and uniforming it. That should help some with run-out, as when you check uniformity before bullet seating, you are only seeing the outside of the neck. Any thickness differences could be internal run-out which you aren't seeing until the bullet is seated. But, do you think that would account for .002 or so with good brass? Or possibly does the brass neck thickness change with resizing over several firings? These are questions I don't know the answers to, and before today would not have even thought about. Good questions to add to my things to learn about.

I love this sport, as the more I learn about it, the more questions I have to find answers to, and the less I realize I know about it---good for humility, No?

Uncle,
Sorry I didn't get back sooner, your analogy has me thinking that if the brass is that far gone, it's time to shit can it. I think we're trying to take this stuff way to far. Read the 6.5x47 Lapua brass thread, one guys states he uniforms flash holes on new brass, that's been drilled out, not punched.
I spend alot of time reloading, but there comes a time!

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Uncle,
Sorry I didn't get back sooner, your analogy has me thinking that if the brass is that far gone, it's time to shit can it. I think we're trying to take this stuff way to far. Read the 6.5x47 Lapua brass thread, one guys states he uniforms flash holes on new brass, that's been drilled out, not punched.
I spend alot of time reloading, but there comes a time!

Well Milo, you do have a point. I cannot go to the range as much as I'd like to, but I do have more time to reload than I need, so I research and try things that one with less time available might consider a waste of time. This is how I learn things that may or may not have great practical value---many times not. Any way, I have more time to read and study than I have to reload or to shoot. So, I spend my time that way for lack of a better thing to do. I haul heavy equipment all over the US, and for instance, I have been stuck in Charlotte, NC for a week waiting for my next load----my guns are at home, and my reloading stuff is at home, so I read and study to stay sane---thought it prudent not to get sanity medications, lest I be put on the no-guns list...
When I am at home, there are no ranges within my price range less than 2 hours away, so I spend more time reloading and fiddling and reading then I do shooting, as gas costs money, and I would rather use it elsewhere than to drive 250 miles round trip every couple days to go to the range.
Thus, I don't get the trigger time that I need, but I am trying to learn all that I can about the reloading etc. I read differing opinions on brass and annealing, and most people wind up in one of two camps:
1.) Shoot the brass until it starts to crack, and then buy new. These folks mostly thing annealing is a waste of time.
2.) Anneal every X number of times shooting, mostly 3-5. These folks mostly swear by annealing, and say that it extends the lifetime of the brass by up to 5 times longer. Saying you anneal every 3 shootings, and get 20 loadings before the brass goes, that makes the brass a rather "cheap" component. If you don't anneal and get only 6 loadings, then the brass is more of an issue in price/round.
I would rather learn the proper way and timing to anneal, spend a little time that I have in abundance, and increase my brass longevity.
If I had less time, I might have more disposable income because of working more, and thus lean towards buying more brass. I probably would not shoot until cracking the casings, though, as if I saved the brass earlier, I would then have it in times of low availability, like now, and could pull it out, anneal it and use it.
To each his own, and probably there is no one "right" way to look at this.

 

[Chanonry]

OK - I annealed three and measured the necks. The runout is almost imperceptible. So I seated three bullets, and my runout varied between .0015 and .004.

I think I can safely assume that the runout is happening in the seating process, unless I'm missing something here. What now?

Make sure you have a really good chamfer. Had the same problem and that was my issue

 

[milo 2.0]

Well Milo, you do have a point. I cannot go to the range as much as I'd like to, but I do have more time to reload than I need, so I research and try things that one with less time available might consider a waste of time. This is how I learn things that may or may not have great practical value---many times not. Any way, I have more time to read and study than I have to reload or to shoot. So, I spend my time that way for lack of a better thing to do. I haul heavy equipment all over the US, and for instance, I have been stuck in Charlotte, NC for a week waiting for my next load----my guns are at home, and my reloading stuff is at home, so I read and study to stay sane---thought it prudent not to get sanity medications, lest I be put on the no-guns list...
When I am at home, there are no ranges within my price range less than 2 hours away, so I spend more time reloading and fiddling and reading then I do shooting, as gas costs money, and I would rather use it elsewhere than to drive 250 miles round trip every couple days to go to the range.
Thus, I don't get the trigger time that I need, but I am trying to learn all that I can about the reloading etc. I read differing opinions on brass and annealing, and most people wind up in one of two camps:
1.) Shoot the brass until it starts to crack, and then buy new. These folks mostly thing annealing is a waste of time.
2.) Anneal every X number of times shooting, mostly 3-5. These folks mostly swear by annealing, and say that it extends the lifetime of the brass by up to 5 times longer. Saying you anneal every 3 shootings, and get 20 loadings before the brass goes, that makes the brass a rather "cheap" component. If you don't anneal and get only 6 loadings, then the brass is more of an issue in price/round.
I would rather learn the proper way and timing to anneal, spend a little time that I have in abundance, and increase my brass longevity.
If I had less time, I might have more disposable income because of working more, and thus lean towards buying more brass. I probably would not shoot until cracking the casings, though, as if I saved the brass earlier, I would then have it in times of low availability, like now, and could pull it out, anneal it and use it.
To each his own, and probably there is no one "right" way to look at this.

A whole lot of heavy stuff comes into this town, if you ever come this way, throw your guns in the truck, we'll shoot. You need to get on the road before you go nuts! Oh, I'm not trying to rebuke everything you write.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

A whole lot of heavy stuff comes into this town, if you ever come this way, throw your guns in the truck, we'll shoot. You need to get on the road before you go nuts! Oh, I'm not trying to rebuke everything you write.

Never thought you were, and I always accept constructive criticism. The useless or vituperative criticisms I ignore---Like from Sniper Aunt----
I really need to figure out the laws on carrying a long rifle nationwide. I know that if I had it with me, there would be opportunities to use it.

 

[milo 2.0]

Just follow in Gaslight's footsteps, everything will work out.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Gaslight, the one to emulate!

Just follow in Gaslight's footsteps, everything will work out.

Oh, believe me, I follow his posts every day. I hope to be just like him when I grow up.

 

[X-fan]

And I assure you I can see the difference at 1000.

Really!?

So you can outshoot Bruce Baer and his record setting 60 pound benchrest rifles with 80+ power scopes?
Bruce says he can't tell the difference between a round that barely bumps a ten thou indicator and one that wobbles 6 thou.
7 thou he Can see 6 he can not. I dont think Bruce guesses about such things.
If you don't believe me ask Bruce himself 717-349-4077

I like to eliminating every variable possible and prefer my rounds spin to zero and as much as the next guy, but I sure as hell wont tell a guy 2 thou is costing him accuracy.

 

[scudzuki]

One problem I see contributing to runout is copper shaving off the bullet jacket, even after chamfering the inside of the case neck.
I can eliminate it entirely if I use an Exacto knife to "chamfer the chamfer", removing the burr that the chamfering tool pushed into the case neck.

I am thinking about making tools specific to bullet/neck diameters that radius instead of chamfer the inside edge of the case neck.
I need to buy some O1 tool steel, which is fairly easy to heat treat properly with a torch and some peanut oil.

Joe

 

[X-fan]

Joe,

I suspect the burr you are referring to (or pieces of the burr/nicks in the bullet base) accounts for many fliers.
Something tells me I read something about what you are suggesting being tried before...IIRC it made the bullet harder to start straight? I can't remember for sure.
Either way I would be interested to hear how your tooling works out.
Cheers,