What's the general thoughts on the bighorn TL3? I have had several defiance action through my shop so I know they are nice. There are a couple things I don't like about the deviant but none are deal breakers. I know jon beanland loves the bighorn so that's enough reason for me to research this action a bit. I guess what I really need to know is what action will fit my manners chassis stock for a R.E.M. 700. Minor fitting is no big deal. I had a Kelby atlas in the shop a few weeks back and it didn't fit my stock worth a dam. I don't want to buy another stock at this time. Will the TL3 fit my stock well? Thanks for the info. Lee
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TL3 or defiance deviant. Why can't I deceide
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Going through the same decision. Im not versed in the engineering world but I appreciate advanced engineering and design. Which is why I can't make up my mind which of the two actions is "better". It comes down to features.
I spoke to two well respected gunsmith (will not mention names), the relayed information to me about the bighorn not having as a robust extraction and its floating bolt head being flawed. They both favored the Defience design. Again Iam not an engineer so I am not able to discern this info. in a useful way. I like the TL3 features and would like it to be my next receiver...but before I do further investigation is needed regarding both designs. If others are knowledgeable in these two actions please chime in with relevant data. Dont mean to de-rail the OP.
I spoke to two well respected gunsmith (will not mention names), the relayed information to me about the bighorn not having as a robust extraction and its floating bolt head being flawed. They both favored the Defience design. Again Iam not an engineer so I am not able to discern this info. in a useful way. I like the TL3 features and would like it to be my next receiver...but before I do further investigation is needed regarding both designs. If others are knowledgeable in these two actions please chime in with relevant data. Dont mean to de-rail the OP.
I'm not an engineer either but the floating bolt head of the Bighorn is what sets it apart and the only attribute about a savage action worth noting. Plus you can run 223 up to magnum bolt heads so it's very versatile.
Seen guys running 6 Dasher out of the Bighorn TL2 with perfect ejection which tells me both extraction and ejection is well executed in it.
Guys seem to really like Bighorn and I can't remember reading any complaints. I would be interested in knowing of any complaints.
It could be those gunsmiths market their version of Defiant actions which means bias is involved. Though I don't think there's anything wrong per say with Defiant.
For M700 footprint I choose Mausingfield.
Seen guys running 6 Dasher out of the Bighorn TL2 with perfect ejection which tells me both extraction and ejection is well executed in it.
Guys seem to really like Bighorn and I can't remember reading any complaints. I would be interested in knowing of any complaints.
It could be those gunsmiths market their version of Defiant actions which means bias is involved. Though I don't think there's anything wrong per say with Defiant.
For M700 footprint I choose Mausingfield.
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Bighorns do not have ejection issues. Period. This weekend at the Whittington center match there were no less than 4 Bighorns running Dashers and none had ejection issues. We have been running cartridges from 6BR to 7SAUM in Bighorns (OG/TL2/TL3) for years without any issues. Not sure who is telling you this BS or why it keeps getting repeated but it is patently false.
As for the original inlet question, the differences in Bighorns TL2/TL3 and R700 is mainly the straight bolt handle and the side bolt release. They do offer different tang configurations. Some Bighorns have longer and thicker tangs. I would pay attention to the tang configuration, as some will need minor fitting or minor changes in bedding from a standard R700 inlet. This seems to be the norm with most custom actions regardless whether they are considered a straight drop-in. Everything is always a little bit custom.
As for the original inlet question, the differences in Bighorns TL2/TL3 and R700 is mainly the straight bolt handle and the side bolt release. They do offer different tang configurations. Some Bighorns have longer and thicker tangs. I would pay attention to the tang configuration, as some will need minor fitting or minor changes in bedding from a standard R700 inlet. This seems to be the norm with most custom actions regardless whether they are considered a straight drop-in. Everything is always a little bit custom.
Running a Bighorn TL-3 here...really happy with it. Mine is DLC coated and after running a few hundred rounds through it, it's already faster and slicker than my very well worn Defiance action. Love the feature set of the TL-3, being able to pull the firing pin with no tools (press and turn) is nice, easy to check headspace feel or bullet seating depth. Mechanical ejector and CRF both work well running the small Dasher case. If I had to choose one, it would be the Bighorn for sure.
I was going thru the same decision recently. I have a Defiance already, and will be picking up my new Bighorn action this week! I'll get back to this with my comparison.
What attracted me to it was its toughness and machining quality. (No reports of galling, harder surface, supported bolt stop, superior machining consistancy.)
The CRF, mechanical ejection, bolt heads, quick-take down bolt, etc... Were just icing on the cake for me. The fact that I know it will last a long time and be able to reliably use short cartriges and swap bolt-heads and pre-fit shouldered barrels means its future proof.
What attracted me to it was its toughness and machining quality. (No reports of galling, harder surface, supported bolt stop, superior machining consistancy.)
The CRF, mechanical ejection, bolt heads, quick-take down bolt, etc... Were just icing on the cake for me. The fact that I know it will last a long time and be able to reliably use short cartriges and swap bolt-heads and pre-fit shouldered barrels means its future proof.
I like TL3 better. It's a very smart design.
As far as extraction issues go; I haven't seen it. There are two ways to look at it; enough is enough or always go for more.
If you load/use good ammo, you shouldn't be having extraction issues.
As far as extraction issues go; I haven't seen it. There are two ways to look at it; enough is enough or always go for more.
If you load/use good ammo, you shouldn't be having extraction issues.
TL3 gets my vote by far. Nothing against defiance but these days when i'm dropping this kind of cash on a custom action i'm looking for a feature set outside of what a cloned remington 700 has to offer. That's why i have a tempest and picked up an SR3 for a hunting build for Dad. I'd be lying if i hadn't thought of keeping the SR3 for myself and getting him a 700 from PTG (truthfully he wont care).
All that said contact Tom. My Tempest wasn't a drop in fit i sent the barreled action and stock to tom and they put relief cuts in the chassis for both the tempest and the timney CE 2-stage.
All that said contact Tom. My Tempest wasn't a drop in fit i sent the barreled action and stock to tom and they put relief cuts in the chassis for both the tempest and the timney CE 2-stage.
I had only minor inletting to do with my Bighorn TL3 in a Manners T6A to lengthen the area at the ejection port, and a ting bit for the bolt handle. I had bought the stock used here and it was made for a stock R700. The rest fit perfectly.
I love everything about the TL3. Being able to disassemble the bolt without tools and home swap barrels and calibers is great. I call Josh at PVA and tell him to chamber a barrel and he ships. No need to send my gun.
I love everything about the TL3. Being able to disassemble the bolt without tools and home swap barrels and calibers is great. I call Josh at PVA and tell him to chamber a barrel and he ships. No need to send my gun.
I had purchased a used manners t4a carbon elite that hat previously been bedded with a deviant. I had to open up the recoil lug side to side and a fair bit deeper. Appears the tl3 lug is larger. Then the obvious lengthier port. And I had to remove some material for th bolt handle on the front area and to match the cone shape of the bolt handle and the square bit where the handle meets the bolt. Make sure the bolt closes fully with a bit of clerance. "Advice from josh" which I very well may have over looked, assuming I had full closure. Let the bolt snap closed its last bit aND make sure you don't feel the handle tap agains the stock anywhere. All was quite simple with a file and a die grinder. Tl3 seems pretty robust. Will have my 6dasher loads out soon. I over looked being able to prime the fat norma case so I'm waiting on shell holder for my hand primer.
The inletting question notwithstanding, both actions are awesome. Jon Beanland is my smith and he built my rifle on a Defiance Deviant and it just runs. Never any problems. Beanland knows his stuff. So if he's your smith, I'd go by whatever he recommends. That said, the TL3 and the Deviant are very different. Forget the inletting thing for a second. If you want/need CRF, go TL3. If you don't, go Defiance. If you want/need multi-cal bolt heads, go TL3. If you don't, go Deviant. The Defiance stuff is nice because you can order an action with custom specs and they'll build it for you for the most part. The only thing one might want, that Defiance won't do, is a custom trigger with a hanger instead of pins. But I wanted a bunch of things custom and Defiance has always said, "Yes."
I dropped a TL3 in my manners eh1 last week that previously had a defiance rebel bedded. I had to lengthen the port and open the lug area a bit. I didn't have to do anything with the bolt handle recess. I moved the defiance to a McMillan stock.
I like them both. The defiance is simple with no 'extra' parts. The bighorn has the extractor, ejector and rotating head which all move and have pins holding them in place. I don't question the reliability at all but there's more to remove for a complete strip (think cerakote application). The easy to remove firing pin is nice although removing the pin from the shroud is more involved than the Rem clones. The bighorn has no bolt nose recess like the others and also has the savage 20 tpi threads. I like the changeable bolt head on the bighorn and bought mine with a standard and magnum head for future use.
My defiance is very smooth but I've run some lapping compound on it. The bighorn is as smooth or more so right out of the box. The ejection distance on the bighorn depends on how hard you run the bolt back just like the kelbly. It'll keep it in the action or toss it on the next bench over and everything in between depending on how hard you hammer it back. I love my kelbly atlas but there's more stock work to get it fitted.
You can't go wrong with either. I'd pick up whichever one you can find in stock rather than the custom order wait route. They're both fantastic and you'll love either one.
I like them both. The defiance is simple with no 'extra' parts. The bighorn has the extractor, ejector and rotating head which all move and have pins holding them in place. I don't question the reliability at all but there's more to remove for a complete strip (think cerakote application). The easy to remove firing pin is nice although removing the pin from the shroud is more involved than the Rem clones. The bighorn has no bolt nose recess like the others and also has the savage 20 tpi threads. I like the changeable bolt head on the bighorn and bought mine with a standard and magnum head for future use.
My defiance is very smooth but I've run some lapping compound on it. The bighorn is as smooth or more so right out of the box. The ejection distance on the bighorn depends on how hard you run the bolt back just like the kelbly. It'll keep it in the action or toss it on the next bench over and everything in between depending on how hard you hammer it back. I love my kelbly atlas but there's more stock work to get it fitted.
You can't go wrong with either. I'd pick up whichever one you can find in stock rather than the custom order wait route. They're both fantastic and you'll love either one.
What he said. It's just incredible that the TL3 has a total of 2 ten thou difference in all of the ones josh at PVA has seen. We have 3 TL3 bighorns. In my mind there really isn't anything else to look at.
You know what the Defiance is like. Might as well try a tl3. I showed one to a fellow hide member yesterday, who's in the same action buying quandry. The unlocking/cocking effort has to be felt, its rediculously light. The machining quality is stellar too.
On another note, there have been grumblings here and there with ejection issues on the earlier actions. I have no experience with them though. I think the vast majority of us started out on plunger ejector type actions, where the the extractor is pretty dumb dumb(case clears the port, and exits). A mechanical ejector, depending on it's design, will fuck up if the user short strokes the bolt. Bighorn did lengthen the e-port, specifically to keep the cases from rebounding off the receiver body and back into the action. Ive only bench tested my tl3, and it works great. Also feeds from aw mags better than any two lug ive used.
Been running my DLC TL3 since November and its been amazing. No issues what so ever. Very happy with it. The only other action I would try out other than a TL3 would be a Mausingfield but thats just because I like trying new stuff and its a great action.
I'd also throw a nod for the tempest in there if this is comp oriented. It's by far and between my favorite action i've used to date, super quick, 60 degree throw is awesome. Still push feed with a plunger ejector but you get a 3-lug bolt and 60 degree throw.
I wish i had tried your TL3 in my manners stock when it was in my shop. Once a year we shoot out to one mile so i will need the 30MOA rail, I think i have made uo my mind. TL3. thanks Lee
Got to fiddle with a TL3 yesterday and have been mentally planning my next build ever since. Its silky smooth and feature packed. I would consider a tempest just because of the short bolt lift but they seem to be difficult to get where the TL3's are shipping now.
Recently sold a defiance tac for a tl3. The defiance is a tank and has intergal rail, very smooth like glass, but I want CRF. nothing wrong with the defiance at all very well put together piece of kit.
I was just in your boat, OP. I already own a 591 and was debating between the TL3, Deviant and a BAT Tac. I went with the TL3 and I am extremely happy with just the machining quality of it (rifle won't be done until the end of the month), but I've fondled the action plenty. The Deviant's are great actions, I just wanted the quick barrel/bolt change capabilities (and to be able to get a .223 head is a big deal). You can actually use your rifle as the "trainer" rifle. I can also shoot mile matches (we have those locally) with a 300 or 7WSM.
Yeah I googled and found that announced in 2015 but that's about it. I'm sure if you called defiance they'd be willing but I haven't actually seen one in the wild.
What 5R said.
Dunno how many CRF Defiance actions are in the wild, but yeah...this is news circa SHOT 2015
Dunno how many CRF Defiance actions are in the wild, but yeah...this is news circa SHOT 2015
I finally got to run my PVA Bighorn TL3 Dasher in a PRS match. I had zero malfunctions and ejection issues due to the action and the tiny Dasher cases. We fired about 170 rounds in typical PRS stage fashion.
I use bohem 's (PVA) Dasher mag kits in AICS 10-round mags...until the ARC mags come out! The only problem I did have was due to AICS and NOT the follower kit. In both mags the front reinforcement plate had an ever so slight bend that occasionally caused the front of the follower to hang up on it. The other mag was spray painted by a previous owner. I filed the front of the followers and they ran perfect on day 2 of the match.
It should be flawless at K&M in a couple weeks.
I use bohem 's (PVA) Dasher mag kits in AICS 10-round mags...until the ARC mags come out! The only problem I did have was due to AICS and NOT the follower kit. In both mags the front reinforcement plate had an ever so slight bend that occasionally caused the front of the follower to hang up on it. The other mag was spray painted by a previous owner. I filed the front of the followers and they ran perfect on day 2 of the match.
It should be flawless at K&M in a couple weeks.
I have decided to buy a TL 3 but cant decide on repeater or single shot. I dont compete in PRS matches and when I hunt/target shoot I dont have or need fast follow up shots.
My thoughts start with a short action TL3 in a dasher and maybe move up to a 284 win loaded long at a later date. What do you gents think?
My thoughts start with a short action TL3 in a dasher and maybe move up to a 284 win loaded long at a later date. What do you gents think?
I have a half dozen single shots and about the same in repeaters. (Not TL3s, but it doesn't matter) I see no difference in practical accuracy. Go with a repeater, it gives you options down the road you otherwise don't have. Only advantage to a single shot is single feeding in highpower or where loading from a mag is not allowed.
