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Night Vision TNVC "Supergain" Tubes
- Thread starter MtnGhost
- Start date
Super-gain (with a hyphen though) is absolutely an L3-Harris term — not just something TNVC dreamed up — but agree, I cannot tell from the marketing if this is just a new name to put on all those tubes or there's an actually different/better one. Marketing stuff, minimal specs:
Korean-spec, so 100k gain instead of 60-70k. I think the range on my UF sheets is 40-80k and actual is around 67k. Otherwise real nice 2376+ tubes from what I'm seeing (for an extra $1200/tube as compared to their spec'able UF WP). I hope it might push more development of quality manual-gain housings, as those'll be pretty damned bright on auto.
Wonder how much difference it makes vrs an UF tube with like ebi. This might finally motivate me to get a super toob.
I asked TNVC two questions over on ARF.
1. Wouldn’t manual gain be important with these?
2. Can we hand select specs with these new tubes?
Answer:
1. “Remember that all tubes will still have ABC - Automatic Brightness Control, so they will auto-regulate depend on ambient light conditions (the number of photons entering the tube), I've been using ABC SuperGains for about the last eight months in the TNV/BNVG Artemis, which is currently ABC-only and haven't had any issues in any lighting conditions beyond that of standard Unfilmed tubes.
That being said, manual gain control can be useful, especially to those who have very light sensitive eyes--long story short I would say that if you're already someone who needs / wants manual gain control, then you will still want it. If you are fine with ABC-only systems, I don't think that SuperGain will change that significantly.
Also, if you want to attenuate the brightness / input (technically not exactly the same thing as tube manual gain control from a technical standpoint) you can use refocusing devices like the Matbock Tarsier (probably the best option due to the iris allowing you to fine-tune the aperture size) to adjust the tube brightness on an ABC-only system while also giving you the depth of field benefits of a refocusing device, which manual gain control cannot do.
Doing my best to describe the experience of using them versus Unfilmed, the image is noticeably brighter, however, some of that is accounted for by the fact that the image is... "whiter," as most who have experienced White Phosphor know, the image isn't really actually white--it's more of a light teal, blue-green color.
SuperGain presents as leaning more "white," though it still has the characteristic WP hue, but to my eye, under most lighting conditions, it's also "cooler" temperature-wise, leaning more to white-blue than to green, if that makes sense.”
2. Hand-Select IS available for TNV-systems ONLY in SuperGain, within reasonable limits, of course, and as always, you can still hand select for cosmetics, though again, hand-select requests will affect lead times.
1. Wouldn’t manual gain be important with these?
2. Can we hand select specs with these new tubes?
Answer:
1. “Remember that all tubes will still have ABC - Automatic Brightness Control, so they will auto-regulate depend on ambient light conditions (the number of photons entering the tube), I've been using ABC SuperGains for about the last eight months in the TNV/BNVG Artemis, which is currently ABC-only and haven't had any issues in any lighting conditions beyond that of standard Unfilmed tubes.
That being said, manual gain control can be useful, especially to those who have very light sensitive eyes--long story short I would say that if you're already someone who needs / wants manual gain control, then you will still want it. If you are fine with ABC-only systems, I don't think that SuperGain will change that significantly.
Also, if you want to attenuate the brightness / input (technically not exactly the same thing as tube manual gain control from a technical standpoint) you can use refocusing devices like the Matbock Tarsier (probably the best option due to the iris allowing you to fine-tune the aperture size) to adjust the tube brightness on an ABC-only system while also giving you the depth of field benefits of a refocusing device, which manual gain control cannot do.
Doing my best to describe the experience of using them versus Unfilmed, the image is noticeably brighter, however, some of that is accounted for by the fact that the image is... "whiter," as most who have experienced White Phosphor know, the image isn't really actually white--it's more of a light teal, blue-green color.
SuperGain presents as leaning more "white," though it still has the characteristic WP hue, but to my eye, under most lighting conditions, it's also "cooler" temperature-wise, leaning more to white-blue than to green, if that makes sense.”
2. Hand-Select IS available for TNV-systems ONLY in SuperGain, within reasonable limits, of course, and as always, you can still hand select for cosmetics, though again, hand-select requests will affect lead times.
Manual gain you actually have a knob that can manually adjust the gain. That is housing dependent, not dependent on the tubes. These tubes will have a much higher end in terms of gain with a compatible housing.
With a non manual gain housing you get what you get. Which IMO might be too bright, probably just depends on your environment.
These should be superior to standard filmess as the marketing material does imply. Looks like they put out a brighter image when up against standard tubes.
Pretty much imagine if your gain knob could keep spinning and you'll get how much of a benefit this is to you. End of the day, pretty cool but noise will be more noticeable for sure (filmless 35+ SNR tubes mitigate this to an extent).
I assume that if you take a 100k gain tube and 70k gain tube and turn them down to say 50k of gain you end up with an identical image
I assume that if you take a 100k gain tube and 70k gain tube and turn them down to say 50k of gain you end up with an identical image
I have a pair of DTNVs on order with TNVC (maybe another 4 weeks to go).
I'm on the fence about contacting them to upgrade to these tubes.
$3k for a possible 10% difference in actual image performance... I'd rather put that towards an E-COTI clip on thermal, or a handheld RICO 640.
I'm on the fence about contacting them to upgrade to these tubes.
$3k for a possible 10% difference in actual image performance... I'd rather put that towards an E-COTI clip on thermal, or a handheld RICO 640.
Why the term “korean”?
Is it meant for that marked, and if so, what about export restrictions?
No matter what, it’s awesome news that the engineers have found a way to tweak and further improve the capabilities.
Photonis will have a time trying to push their “OOB” sales pitch, although they still have the upper hand with high light resolution, I guess…
Resisting the urge to make a joke about eyes and brighter tube requirements
So much for ITAR and only selling FOM restricted tubes to allies, although gain isn’t part of FOM calculus.
There must be something else about gain in ITAR.
There must be something else about gain in ITAR.
I personally don’t care much for the Tarsiers. Ran them on my DTNVS but adjusting both and them slipping (I fixed with Tape) was a bit annoying.I do agree though, that is a patch to aid those that need it.
Would much prefer a knob that quickly adjusts both tubes if it’s available.
ITAR doesn’t apply if through DOD I don’t believe.
FWIW I use the manual gain on my 2600 FOM TNVC PVS-14 all the time. When driving with a bridge HMT/NV setup, I want the I^2 image to be as dim as possible while still providing the ability to navigate.
I guess not. I know for a fact that the standard PVS-14 in the danish military is FOM restricted (1600). But also that our special forces gear are not restricted. Either that, or they traded with someone in the ‘stan…
ITAR is not a ban. It's just regulatory control with oversight to assure critical defense-applicable items are not mailed out willy-nilly to people we don't like.
Mission statements for the orgs that authorize exports tell the tale:
So, we (the USG) like the ROK, and trust them, and their Army, to use things properly and not sell them on the black market, etc. Selling tens of thousands of NODs to re-equip their regular army, improving the ability of a close partner to defend their nation alongside US forces, with no notable risk of loss of equipment or information. Oh yeah, that gets approved.
Mission statements for the orgs that authorize exports tell the tale:
So, we (the USG) like the ROK, and trust them, and their Army, to use things properly and not sell them on the black market, etc. Selling tens of thousands of NODs to re-equip their regular army, improving the ability of a close partner to defend their nation alongside US forces, with no notable risk of loss of equipment or information. Oh yeah, that gets approved.
ITAR dam sure doesn't apply to Buck Fiden.
Hecque, 80 Billion in high tech weapons, NV, Thermal, Aircraft etc, etc aint nothing to sneeze at, especially if you the thug terrorists.
They gotta love Uncle Joe. Meanwhile ATF is harassing law abiding and productive American citizens.
Anyone see a problem with this picture.
I think Horta sorta touched on what these tubes are back in Oct 2020
"L3 makes "super tubes" that remove a lot of the "safeties" that make tubes more durable / less fragile. There's no free lunch, but supposedly you can get those 3600 FOM tubes Vic was talking about from L3 (in quantity orders) if you're willing to have no warranty.
Most of us aren't willing to drop >$10K on something with zero warranty out of the gate."
www.snipershide.com
NSF JoJo over on Arfcom used to refer to these type tubes as "Overcooked". Haven't seen him post in a long time, not sure if they gave him the boot or not.
It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.
"L3 makes "super tubes" that remove a lot of the "safeties" that make tubes more durable / less fragile. There's no free lunch, but supposedly you can get those 3600 FOM tubes Vic was talking about from L3 (in quantity orders) if you're willing to have no warranty.
Most of us aren't willing to drop >$10K on something with zero warranty out of the gate."
Night Vision - Is there too high spec for a tube?
I'm looking at buying my first PVS-14 and kind of leaning towards the L3 white phosphorus filmless. I've found someone who sells them in the Vyper housing with decent specs, around 2200 fom 0.7 halo 0.3 ebi for $4000. Would it be worth it to get a high spec tube say 2900 fom for $4600? What is...
www.snipershide.com
NSF JoJo over on Arfcom used to refer to these type tubes as "Overcooked". Haven't seen him post in a long time, not sure if they gave him the boot or not.
It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.
This dude reported back they caused a little eye strain. 
In all seriousness, not much reporting out there on these.
FYI it has been reported by others that the South Korean Government had ordered these units back around 2017 ish and found them not to their liking. Apparently under heavy canopy the scintillation was too much. Since running them they have switched back to regular units.
Take from that what you want.
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Maybe dumb question: Does anyone know what's in latest-issue ANVIS for US Army Aviation?
Reason is: friend's (deployed) unit has both green and semi-recently, white. No other specs available even when asked. Just pick green or white when asking for gear to go fly. And after trying the white 2-3 times, he never ever picks them. Too bright. Because essentially 100% of the places you fly have ambient lights. Even if 30 miles off there's a city, cars with lights on a highway, other aircraft, and that's enough to make them bloom out a bit annoyingly.
Remember, ABC/auto-gain because pilots have enough on their hands to not be fiddling with dials on their heads, but it makes me wonder if this is just normal newest upgraded WP tubes or Army Aviation bought some of these super-gain tubes also and that's how bright they are.
Reason is: friend's (deployed) unit has both green and semi-recently, white. No other specs available even when asked. Just pick green or white when asking for gear to go fly. And after trying the white 2-3 times, he never ever picks them. Too bright. Because essentially 100% of the places you fly have ambient lights. Even if 30 miles off there's a city, cars with lights on a highway, other aircraft, and that's enough to make them bloom out a bit annoyingly.
Remember, ABC/auto-gain because pilots have enough on their hands to not be fiddling with dials on their heads, but it makes me wonder if this is just normal newest upgraded WP tubes or Army Aviation bought some of these super-gain tubes also and that's how bright they are.
Timely discussion as I was just thinking about upgrading. The “under heavy canopy” bit caught my eye as I recently moved to the national forest and now all my activities are under heavy canopy and it makes a difference!
In 2013 (hard to believe it’s been ten years!) I got a set of tubes in bnvs that were 33.7snr 72lp. Everything I’m seeing today seems like a very incremental improvement. But I was wondering if these super gain would make a difference. Definitely hoping to hear any personal experiences
In 2013 (hard to believe it’s been ten years!) I got a set of tubes in bnvs that were 33.7snr 72lp. Everything I’m seeing today seems like a very incremental improvement. But I was wondering if these super gain would make a difference. Definitely hoping to hear any personal experiences
Sounds like they needed to turn the gain down, or did they not have manual gain control on their particular binos?
I have now used my Supergain tubes for a few months, now. They are in rnvga housing, so Autogain. I had some excellent unfilmed wp tubes, and these are excellent uf wp sg tubes. I hand select all the specs on the systems I order. These are roughly 2750fom, <1ebi, and 0.7 halo, and have excellent cosmetic characteristics. If "white wall hunting", they are indistinguishable from my uf wp tubes. When outside or in low light conditions, yes, they do scintillate more, however, I find it preferable to the uf wp regular tubes in dark environs, which return no/very dark image under canopy vs dim images with more scintillation. This sg is not a "next level capability", and if you have good wp uf tubes, I dont think the trade is really a big thing to pursue, but they do offer better performance in very dark areas, and if you want the best for that, these are them.
Yup, I’ve got time now with 24UAs and now 24UAHs. In a nutshell, the Supergain tubes really shine in very low light conditions. For example, hiking the nature preserve near my house, I go in and out of moderately wooded areas on a clear night before the moon is out and with the 24UAs I get a bit of noise, but overall a clean clear image that’s totally useable. The darkest shadowed areas are very dark and I need some IR to see into them.
With the 24UAH (Supergain), there’s still some noise, but it seems a tad finer and more uniform (hard to explain otherwise - like stochastic image sampling). The image feels high contrast, where the overall levels are boosted a bit, so now I can see into those previous dark shadow areas a bit more. The image is also more black & white than blueish white. If you’ve ever used Photoshop, it just feels like someone’s played with the Levels tool to make the image more balanced.
Under more common conditions like overcast or partial moon, the Supergain tubes feel about the same as the standard tubes. This is especially true inside structures with plenty of IR flood action. But again, when you go really dark, where the standard high spec L3 tubes start to struggle, the Supergain tubes have a bit more to play with.
Is the juice worth the squeeze? It is to me, but your mileage may vary.
For reference, my tubes are all around the same 72lp res and 38ish SNR.
With the 24UAH (Supergain), there’s still some noise, but it seems a tad finer and more uniform (hard to explain otherwise - like stochastic image sampling). The image feels high contrast, where the overall levels are boosted a bit, so now I can see into those previous dark shadow areas a bit more. The image is also more black & white than blueish white. If you’ve ever used Photoshop, it just feels like someone’s played with the Levels tool to make the image more balanced.
Under more common conditions like overcast or partial moon, the Supergain tubes feel about the same as the standard tubes. This is especially true inside structures with plenty of IR flood action. But again, when you go really dark, where the standard high spec L3 tubes start to struggle, the Supergain tubes have a bit more to play with.
Is the juice worth the squeeze? It is to me, but your mileage may vary.
For reference, my tubes are all around the same 72lp res and 38ish SNR.
But an absolute shit ton goes missing when shipped to Ukraine??
Do you know this, or are you just guessing..?
Getting a hold on Gen3 stuff isn’t exactly easy, nor cheap, here in the EU…
Awesome - You cherry picked a quote from 9/22 to interject some noxious political shit.
Getting one or two, maybe not.
But it’s implied that the European marked is flooded with tubes, which isn’t the case.
The tubes available are for the most part smuggled out of the states, not donated.
Some have “fallen off” from a military truck of a NATO partner, but these are hot potatoes (and FOM restricted), but each one is accounted for internally, since it’s a ITAR controlled item.
