I have read everything I can find on the anneal, don't anneal question. The AMP seems the most idiot poof. I want longer brass life and more accurate reloads. annealing seems a relatively easy step to help a bit with that goal. The AMP seems the least finicky and the boss of the house would not be cool at all withopen flames so.... AMP annealer. Any good reason not to?
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to buy an AMP annealer or not, that is the question
- Thread starter kujuak
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Did you take a good hard look at molten salt bath annealing? Way less expensive and I'm hoping just as fast. I'll be doing 494 cases with this in about two weeks. I used to use the old - in the torch flame with chucked adapter to turn the case method. Can you say 'slow and tedious'?
Yes. Salt bath annealing. Just as easy, just as safe, easier to control for the non-technical person, a whole lot less exxpensive.
How much is your time worth? The only way I would buy an AMP machine is with the automated feeder, and at that point, it's $1900. An Annealeez or Giraud is much cheaper. There's also another one out there that's automated but the name escapes me at the moment.
Do you have to setup the flame and feeds/speeds on those two every single time you turn them on? If so, that's not much of a time saver.
The beauty of salt bath annealing is in its utter simplicity. You melt the salt to the correct (and very easily measurable) temperature then go to work. With some creative fixturing, processing more than one case at a time in the salt is doable and the actual exposure time in the salt is a few seconds.
I have two valves on my propane line, one stays put, the other I use for on/off purposes. I also have digital readouts for my speed which is the only thing that I change from one caliber to the next.
I could walk to my annealer, fire it up and be annealing cases in less than a few minutes.
And because it's magazine fed, I can size brass or whatever else while I'm annealing.
My AMP is one of the best tools I bought. I can anneal 100 cases in 8 min, most people can’t even set their machines up and adjust them in that time. If you can afford a AMP you’ll never regret buying one.
To answer your anneal or don’t question, I’ll tell you from my testing that after 2 firings on case things change enough that it causes accuracy problems. I anneal every firing. A die will not bump shoulder or size neck correctly after 2 firings unless you move die down more or change bushings.
To answer your anneal or don’t question, I’ll tell you from my testing that after 2 firings on case things change enough that it causes accuracy problems. I anneal every firing. A die will not bump shoulder or size neck correctly after 2 firings unless you move die down more or change bushings.
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I have no first hand experience yet but got sold on the AMP Annealer based on what I've read. I was going to go with a Bench-Source but when I talked to the guys there they indicated that (because of the open flame) it couldn't be used in a confined space, e.g., a basement which is where I have my reloading bench set up. The AMP Annealer does not have the same restriction; your issue is going to be finding one. I've had one on back order with Graf's for months and am hoping to hear something in the November/December time frame. I also plan to anneal after every firing so I may spring for the add-on autoloader at some point as well. Good luck!
I just bought and set up a salt bath annealer. The thing I really like about it (compared to torch/flame systems) is that it’s damn difficult to over anneal. It can be done, but you have to work at it. With the flame types, it’s very easy to over anneal, particularly when first setting it up.
Downside of what I bought is that the (small) Lee Lead melting pot is quite small and each successive piece of brass pulls a lot of heat out of the salt bath, which increases the recovery time for it to get back up to the set temperature. I may buy a larger Lee pot that won’t cool off quite as quickly, not sure yet. I have considered tha AMP annealer, but I can’t see getting the payback out of it. Nice things about the AMP is there is no post annealing salt cleanup of your brass, nor is there an open flame. I imagine it would not be easy to over anneal, and the repeatability would be very good.
Downside of what I bought is that the (small) Lee Lead melting pot is quite small and each successive piece of brass pulls a lot of heat out of the salt bath, which increases the recovery time for it to get back up to the set temperature. I may buy a larger Lee pot that won’t cool off quite as quickly, not sure yet. I have considered tha AMP annealer, but I can’t see getting the payback out of it. Nice things about the AMP is there is no post annealing salt cleanup of your brass, nor is there an open flame. I imagine it would not be easy to over anneal, and the repeatability would be very good.
Give more on your testing procedures, or how you came to the conclusion that after 2 firings things change so much. I've seen brass that came out of an AMP and I can't say for sure, but the machine concentrates on the neck, not the shoulder. I'd have to see the bump numbers in person.
There are BR shooters who shoot 6BR cases or variants 30+ times w/o annealing, and their groups on targets don't support the need to anneal.
Being you have no experience with annealing and want to get started, and this is in your budget, I do not see how you can go wrong with the AMP. It will be your baseline or standard, and what you ultimately work around, The customer support and innovation is top shelf.
There are so many trends or fads with annealing, it's tough to keep up, and some great arguments on the web over it. This company came up with a simple(?) way of doing things, backed it up with hardness tests on brass, which is tough for the ordinary guy to do, and made a product that works for most.
Just because you heard someone got 30+ firings don’t mean anything. I’m sure you could do that if you wanted. My testing was done with a 6BRA. After 2 firings the shoulder would be .001” to .0015” from bumping to where they were freshly annealed. The neck tension would change also making ES and SD numbers climb. I annealed and shot same case 10 times and had ES of 2. If you did your own research and quit believing half the stuff people repeat you’d be surprised.
I answered the OP’s questions to the best of my knowledge with the research I’ve done, where is your research????
Consistently right or consistently wrong is still consistent when you look at target, either way will get you there, but if you anneal you won’t have cases separate, necks break off, splitting, etc.
How does annealing prevent case separation?
I asked a simple question. I guess I never knew annealing, sizing and firing cases constituted research, Right now I am shooting Norma XC brass that came so soft, I wouldn't think of annealing it till after 3 firings, maybe 4. Also hydro formed Dasher with short necks, I annealed brass from one gun after 3 firings, worked fine or held.
As for quiting believing what I read, I'll start with you.
AMP Masterrace checking in.
Do you like fucking around with setting equipment up, only to not be sure its even set up correctly? If so, buy a Giraud or Annealeaze or whatever. Then google what the correct method of measuring/figuring out how hot the brass should get and get told 45 different things. No you don't need Tempilaq, yes you do, no it goes off brass color, no it goes off the color of the flame on the brass, no its only for 2.5689 seconds, rub your balls on it first.
Who the fuck knows. Who the fuck cares.
AMP. Turn it on. Stick the case in. Pull the case out. Go fuck around with something else instead of setting an annealer up for 45 minutes.
And fuck liquid salt bath shit. Sure it can get the desired outcome, but I can't imagine who thought melting shit to 500 degrees and then constantly sticking stuff in it with your hand was a brilliant idea.
Do you like fucking around with setting equipment up, only to not be sure its even set up correctly? If so, buy a Giraud or Annealeaze or whatever. Then google what the correct method of measuring/figuring out how hot the brass should get and get told 45 different things. No you don't need Tempilaq, yes you do, no it goes off brass color, no it goes off the color of the flame on the brass, no its only for 2.5689 seconds, rub your balls on it first.
Who the fuck knows. Who the fuck cares.
AMP. Turn it on. Stick the case in. Pull the case out. Go fuck around with something else instead of setting an annealer up for 45 minutes.
And fuck liquid salt bath shit. Sure it can get the desired outcome, but I can't imagine who thought melting shit to 500 degrees and then constantly sticking stuff in it with your hand was a brilliant idea.
If they told you that it's too dangerous to anneal with a torch in a basement what the hell are they doing handling loaded firearms at all? They should be in a padded room, with no sharp edges, loud noises, and soothing music to prevent their feelings from also possibly being hurt.
I guess no plumber ever sweat a pipe in a basement or other "confined" space... I guess no one has ever been stupid enough to put a furnace in a basement. Then again, that flame is behind a thin piece of metal (which you CAN SEE through the slats!) so I suppose it isn't "open". Now, I don't recommend welding up a full chassis in an unventilated space, but a freaking torch isn't even noticeable unless you're in a closet and leave it on for a long, long time.
Seriously? The Bench-Source guys told you this?
Heating metal isn't as hard as some marksmen want to make it. Figure out what your time is worth, and choose accordingly. Buy what you want and what looks cool to you and don't look back. If it sounds like bullshit there's a 99% chance it is (like you can't have an open flame in a basement is too dangerous!).
I don't care how fast it is as long as I don't have to sit there and feed it or monitor it past out the corner of my eye. I'm not going to start my annealer and get in the shower, but it has a magazine, and I can be doing other processes while it's running. As long as I'm hearing the ker-thunk of it dropping into the bin I know it's working right. There are a bunch of good ones, and as many opinions as there are opinions on cleaning/tumbling brass.
Before I annealed the primer pockets would give out before I started splitting necks. Now that I anneal the primer pockets give out before I start splitting the necks. I'm not convinced that trying to extend brass life is a legitimate reason to anneal. Maybe on some cartridges run hot, where you're actually getting a lot of split necks, it may extend the life significantly, but for most of us I think the benefit is uniform neck tension and overall uniformity in resizing annealed brass over work hardened brass.
If I stopped annealing tomorrow I probably would not notice it on the course of fire. However, I'll continue to do it because now it's just habit and part of the process/ritual. Plus I just like having an open flame in my basement five feet from 500lbs of various smokeless powders. My furnace room is the driest room in the house, making it perfect for storage of components and reloading. There is nothing I do that requires ventilation, including annealing brass, and if that's too dangerous then I would be a fool to ever walk out my door.
Sorry for the rant, but I've been fighting with stupid safety Nazis my whole life, and when someone tries to tell me something innocuous is too dangerous it really makes me mad. I'm a deliberate man with uncommon sense and I pay attention to both detail and what I'm doing. What may be "too dangerous" for you is not dangerous at all for me, so STFU and bother someone else.
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Direct quote from Bench-Source:
"Do not ever anneal in a closed room or shop area. Carbon Monoxide will be present in the immediate area from the burning of your torches. Always have plenty of ventilation and fresh air to the area."
Please don't shoot the messenger.
P.s. Furnaces are vented to the outside, if they weren't you'd be dead.
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I can see how people could be worried about the flame; even though its not an issue unless you're locked in a windowless room with it for hours or something.
When I first started reloading 15+ years ago and had next to no idea as to WTF I was doing, I was getting everything set up in my garage at the house I lived in back then. Upon getting everything figured out, I look over and see my gas water heater sitting about 20 feet away and immediately get pictures in my mind of gunpowder 'fumes' making their way over to it and the entire house disintegrates in a gigantic natural gas gunpowder explosion that only leaves a crater behind and ends up on the news as 'gun hoarders stockpile explodes in quiet neighborhood'.
I got over that and loaded ammo. I'm still alive. I'm pretty sure that house is still there too.
When I first started reloading 15+ years ago and had next to no idea as to WTF I was doing, I was getting everything set up in my garage at the house I lived in back then. Upon getting everything figured out, I look over and see my gas water heater sitting about 20 feet away and immediately get pictures in my mind of gunpowder 'fumes' making their way over to it and the entire house disintegrates in a gigantic natural gas gunpowder explosion that only leaves a crater behind and ends up on the news as 'gun hoarders stockpile explodes in quiet neighborhood'.
I got over that and loaded ammo. I'm still alive. I'm pretty sure that house is still there too.
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I don't see it being any worse than cooking with a gas stove. I use a bench source and would like to eventually upgrade to the AMP machine for reasons others have mentioned. I do feel comfortable in setting it up and that it's doing a good job but it would be nice to take all the guess work out of it. I know I really questioned it a few years ago when I started and could have saved a lot of time spent researching on how to do it properly lol. I can't say whether or not it helped my SD's or es but I have it so I use it almost every firing. I am curious if anyone other than Applied ballistics has done the testing like they did in order to see if it's doing anything for SD's. The section they did on it in one of the books was pretty interesting and well worth reading.
The AMP machine looks great. I'd maybe have one if I didn't already have a Giraud, with which I've had a lot of experience for about 8 years now. I'm pretty comfortable setting up the flame, with a regulator, measuring it and its length from the case neck, and monitoring the dwell time, with and without Tempilaq.
Some ignored facts are:
There is a "window" in which annealing occurs, and it is not measured in fractions of a degree or nanoseconds. Having it "Perfect" (based on what? Some surrogate outcome hardness test the AMP guys said they did with some "scientific" tools and a microscope that you have blind faith in?) may not be as important as having it *consistent* from one batch to the next (hence the regulator for the torch).
The research the AMP guys have done with their instruments, hardness tests, microscopes, etc are welcomed to the community, but they are just that - surrogate outcomes for what we all want to know, whether a gun shoots better if you minimize variability or maximize the value of some variable such as neck tension or brass hardness. Nowhere in the AMP materials do they report the results of tests like Litz did, and show that annealing makes you more accurate, or reduces SDs and I'm not aware of any good data, rigorously collected, that demonstrate a favorable effect on SD or accuracy from annealing, or that if it exists, the AMP does it better than another method. What if I told you I have a device that measures and reduces variability in primer seating pressure? Would you buy it if you didn't know whether it had an impact on velocity SD or accuracy?
What if a manufacturer changes the brass recipe - manufacturing process, brass formula or neck wall or shoulder thickness? How is the AMP machine to be "perfect" with variables that change after the latest AZTEC program? How many cases and lots were tested to set the programming? What is the repeatability of the testing? Has there been independent confirmation of the results?
I anneal to increase brass life and on the *belief* that it will reduce neck tension variability and reduce velocity SD. I use the Giraud because I have it, am comfortable that I can get in the "window" of effective annealing each time I set it up, and because it saves me time since it's automated.
If I didn't have the Giraud, I may have the AMP, but I'm not sure because with all the needed case holders it would be over 3x the cost of the Giraud and it would cost me more time (which is more $$$) to anneal substantially sized batches of brass. The set-up time of the Giraud is, economically speaking, a fixed cost for each batch - so if the batches are large, that time gets subsumed in the overall time savings of loading the hopper with 150 cases, turning your back, and doing something else.
So, you need to ask yourself, if you're going to buy an AMP: 1.) How "perfect" is it really, from lot to lot? 2.) How "perfect" does it really need to be to achieve my goals? 3.) How much does it cost? 4.) How much does it save me (in, say, brass life, or missed targets) and 5.) How much is my time worth?
For me, money is no object, but my time is very valuable, and I'm skeptical I need Promethius or Sartorius level accuracy, or need to weight sort things, or need the AMP to get very good results with my reloads.
But, each person will answer the 5 questions above differently and come up with different conclusions about annealing, salt bath, Giraud, Benchmark, and AMP.
But they will all agree the Mate automation thingie is a POS right now.
Some ignored facts are:
There is a "window" in which annealing occurs, and it is not measured in fractions of a degree or nanoseconds. Having it "Perfect" (based on what? Some surrogate outcome hardness test the AMP guys said they did with some "scientific" tools and a microscope that you have blind faith in?) may not be as important as having it *consistent* from one batch to the next (hence the regulator for the torch).
The research the AMP guys have done with their instruments, hardness tests, microscopes, etc are welcomed to the community, but they are just that - surrogate outcomes for what we all want to know, whether a gun shoots better if you minimize variability or maximize the value of some variable such as neck tension or brass hardness. Nowhere in the AMP materials do they report the results of tests like Litz did, and show that annealing makes you more accurate, or reduces SDs and I'm not aware of any good data, rigorously collected, that demonstrate a favorable effect on SD or accuracy from annealing, or that if it exists, the AMP does it better than another method. What if I told you I have a device that measures and reduces variability in primer seating pressure? Would you buy it if you didn't know whether it had an impact on velocity SD or accuracy?
What if a manufacturer changes the brass recipe - manufacturing process, brass formula or neck wall or shoulder thickness? How is the AMP machine to be "perfect" with variables that change after the latest AZTEC program? How many cases and lots were tested to set the programming? What is the repeatability of the testing? Has there been independent confirmation of the results?
I anneal to increase brass life and on the *belief* that it will reduce neck tension variability and reduce velocity SD. I use the Giraud because I have it, am comfortable that I can get in the "window" of effective annealing each time I set it up, and because it saves me time since it's automated.
If I didn't have the Giraud, I may have the AMP, but I'm not sure because with all the needed case holders it would be over 3x the cost of the Giraud and it would cost me more time (which is more $$$) to anneal substantially sized batches of brass. The set-up time of the Giraud is, economically speaking, a fixed cost for each batch - so if the batches are large, that time gets subsumed in the overall time savings of loading the hopper with 150 cases, turning your back, and doing something else.
So, you need to ask yourself, if you're going to buy an AMP: 1.) How "perfect" is it really, from lot to lot? 2.) How "perfect" does it really need to be to achieve my goals? 3.) How much does it cost? 4.) How much does it save me (in, say, brass life, or missed targets) and 5.) How much is my time worth?
For me, money is no object, but my time is very valuable, and I'm skeptical I need Promethius or Sartorius level accuracy, or need to weight sort things, or need the AMP to get very good results with my reloads.
But, each person will answer the 5 questions above differently and come up with different conclusions about annealing, salt bath, Giraud, Benchmark, and AMP.
But they will all agree the Mate automation thingie is a POS right now.
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On the bench rest guys loading cases 20+ times. Bench rest rifles have tight chambers, by tight I mean as close to a "zero" chamber as possible. For instance the chamber neck diameter may be .001 larger than the turned neck diameter of a loaded round. There isn't enough expansion on firing to stretch the brass into permanent deformation requiring much resizing if any. If the brass isn't work hardened by a lot of resizing, it doesn't work harden very much meaning annealing isn't needed often or at all depending on just how tight the chamber is. But then bench resters are trying to turn their necks to .0001", or at least the better tools are capable of that. Of course that is why they are typically paranoid about keeping the chamber squeaky clean, wouldn't take a lot for a stuck case.
If I had the money, I'd have the AMP. No muss, no fuss, no consumable needed. Not even I could screw it up. You know how they say experience is the best teacher? Well I've learned a lot over the years.
If I had the money, I'd have the AMP. No muss, no fuss, no consumable needed. Not even I could screw it up. You know how they say experience is the best teacher? Well I've learned a lot over the years.
Been running my Bench Source for 4 years with great results.
Yeah, but I don't have to leave the house to buy it, or store it, or dispose of empties. On top of that it doesn't run out at inconvenient times.
How long does it take you to do 100 cases by hand in Aztec mode without the auto mate?
about 5 secs per so 10 mins. note depending on case size etc ... i did 6 dasher it takes ~ 1 secs to anneal. ,
For what it’s worth I just received my Mark II AMP. I annealed 400 Alpha 6.5CM brass in an hour. All by hand no amp mate. Worked great. Guess we’ll see if I get down range results.
I just received my mark II also, already had the AMP Mate sitting here for a bit. I had it set up and running in about 10 minutes, it's fast! I ordered a Dillon case feeder today but still need to order the Creedmoor Amp Stand Kit. Does anyone have the case feeder set up with the Amp Mate yet?
If your budget allows, by all means get it. I wish I had gone that route a few years ago. I'm a firm believer in induction annealing due to consistency case-to-case. I converted my Giraud to induction for all my cases over 1/2 inch case head, and have another unit made by Ez-Anneal for smaller cases that is great as well. Still, could have gotten an AMP to replace both. I would jump on an AMP in a heartbeat if I had the funds, but happy with my current setup. The salt bath annealing scares the shit out of me. No way I'm melting salts and fussing around with it. I anneal at random, and whenever I feel like it, don't want to spend 30 minutes waiting and fussing with settings to do a 5 minute job. I turn my machines on, consult my dwell chart, and ready to go in 30 seconds.
Yep, setup was easy. Just make sure you update the firmware on both units when you get them and use the supplied USB cable and everything works good.
I used an Annie to convert my Giraud to induction. The annie is a good unit, and can be used alone, or with some sort of automation. Mine has been running about 2 or 3 years now.
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I got talked into the AMP by a buddy last week and I'm a convert now. Sooooo nice to not have to set up different turrets on teh Giraud and mess with the flame and fret about consistency batch to batch, and jack around with Tempilaq etc.
For now, however, I'm keeping the Giraud for "volume" calibers such as .223 and .308. there is some value to setting a couple of hundred in the hopper and carrying on with other tasks. And for those volume calibers, I don't care quite as much about consistency.
One thing I did learn from the AMP is I think I was being too conservative with my temperatures on the Giraud, if the heat of the base of cases coming out of the AMP are any guide.
For now, however, I'm keeping the Giraud for "volume" calibers such as .223 and .308. there is some value to setting a couple of hundred in the hopper and carrying on with other tasks. And for those volume calibers, I don't care quite as much about consistency.
One thing I did learn from the AMP is I think I was being too conservative with my temperatures on the Giraud, if the heat of the base of cases coming out of the AMP are any guide.
Everywhere you read, they say, never let the case get red hot, but the amp most definitely has to get them glowing red based on the way they come out of the machine. The AMP also has a much higher wattage output so it gets the heat onto the case faster, I think that is the key. The faster it gets to 850-900 the better, and keeps heat from migrating down too far.
I would NEVER buy a AMP. That's because my buddy did. I put a $10 bill in the blue Lapua box each time he anneals for me. He gets them every second firing. My SD are 5-7.
The AMP is the way to go. Easy and fast to setup. Repeatable if you have to do 400 at a time or 50 every night for 8 days.
Black Friday sale on AMP. https://shop.ampannealing.com/annealer/build/
$200 off with 3 free pilots + free shipping. For $1195 that is a great deal!
Black Friday sale on AMP. https://shop.ampannealing.com/annealer/build/
$200 off with 3 free pilots + free shipping. For $1195 that is a great deal!
Why repeat research and testing that's already been done? Bryan Litz and the Applied Ballistics crew did a whole chapter on annealing in their latest book.
10+ firings without annealing and zero effect on accuracy vs annealing every other firing and I think every fourth or fifth firing.
If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy spending a grand on something like this then go for it.
Most people don't shoot enough to even get brass to a tenth firing. If you buy Lapua at $1/case and get ten firings out of it you dropped your brass cost to 10c a round.
If it needs to be replaced at that point, so be it, I'll use the thousand dollars I didn't spend on an annealer to buy more.
I hear you and I shall add that book to my AB Book List. Thank you for letting me/us know.
BUTT!!!
For the SALT ANNEALING folks:
EDIT!!! I SCREWED UP THE URL!!!
I gotsta let you know... You got punked.
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I don't need a Prometheus, arbor press with force indicator, sorted brass, my own chamber reamers, or an annealer. But it sure doesn't hurt LOL.
