To Chamfer or NOT to Chamfer after using World's Finest Trimmer

protoolsnerd

protoolsnerd

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 11, 2011
112
0
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South Florida
#1
Hi guys
I reload a ton of 223 for 3 gun ( not precision reloading , out of a gas gun, mostly going to be shot at 100 yards and in ...mostly ) I load a couple different pills. 55 gr Hornady BT and the 69 gr nosler HPBT.

The trim on the WFT is really nice , not too ragged and i don't feel a ton of burrs or issues . Does anyone who uses this same setup feel the need to deburr and chamfer ? Seems like the bullets will seat just fine without it . I wouldn't mind cutting out that step being that i load 1k at a time . Also being that i'm not financially able to get a Dillon 1050 and dedicate it to 223 , this is what i have to work with. I have the RCBS trim mate which is awesome , but i'm hoping not to have to.

Does anyone have experience messing with either chamfering or not , and the resultant effect on the round's accuracy ?

thanks

Aaron
 
#2
I have some expierence with the WFT and what I learned was the faster the motor used to spin it and the less pressure exerted onto the case the less of a bur that is left behind...that said it still left some no matter what I tried. I def think if you want any kind of concetricy to your loads you will want to debur to ensure it. How much of effect it will have on accuray is hard to say, easy way to find out is to load 30 or so rounds both ways and print them on paper.
 
#3
I pretty much only make run 'n gun ammo for 223. I never chamfer 223 because of the sheer expenditure of time, though I always chamfer my precision ammo. If your trimmer is giving you rough cuts and serious burrs, you should probably run the brass through a quick chamfer process to be safe.
 
#4
Thanks guys , BUbba . I'm going with you on this one. I'm not worried about concentricity or even accuracy less then 1 moa. it's very rare that a stage will require anything more then a 100 yard engagement. Maybe 200 rarely. In major matches i'd use my more lovingly crafted 69 gr rounds for 200+ Better pill , higher bc , better wind bucking . After i pump out all my 40s&w rounds the 650 is getting concerted back to 223 for 1k rounds or so.

Got 8lbs of 748 so it's time to use it
 
#5
If the vast majority of that ammo is for 3-gun, I just don't see you getting much utility out of chamfering those cases. It always just boils down to a cost-benefit analysis of your time. When it comes to my run 'n gun ammo, I'm just shooting for the best consistency I can get out of my 550B and the components I have on hand, but I'm definitely not going the extra mile to make them into match ammo.

I've never used 748 with 223, how do you like it? I've got pounds and pounds of 8208 XBR and it meters great in the Dillon powder measure, and shoots great with my 75gr pills. No complaints about it whatsoever. Hell, it's not even that hard to find anymore.
 
#8
Have you looked at possibly adding a Lyman "M" die to your reloading regimen? It is what I use for my mass loaded 5.56 ammo because I don't feel the need to chamfer all of them for AR fodder. I also use a Lee FCD to crimp.

Set the "M" die to bell just the very tip of the case mouth and you'll be able to load FB and BT bullets with ease. Now if you have burrs on the outside of the case mouth then I would definitely debur. A RCBS deburring tool chucked in a drill makes quick out of a large amount of cases.
 
#9
I use a routine for all my reloads, get a trimmate and carbide bits. I love the WFT but I still use the same routine. Why spend the time and powder to load anything less accurate than a factory bullet. I get worried about the round hanging up on feed ramp or mag lip.
 
#10
^^^^That is why I always debur. Plus the rds look better...

To the OP, if loading BT bullets, as long as the cut is clean in the inside of the case mouth you shouldn't have any problems loading 1moa ammo. However, if you see shaving of the bullets then I would absolutely chamfer...or get a "M" die.
 
#11
protoolsnerd said:
Hi guys
I reload a ton of 223 for 3 gun ( not precision reloading , out of a gas gun, mostly going to be shot at 100 yards and in ...mostly ) I load a couple different pills. 55 gr Hornady BT and the 69 gr nosler HPBT.

The trim on the WFT is really nice , not too ragged and i don't feel a ton of burrs or issues . Does anyone who uses this same setup feel the need to deburr and chamfer ? Seems like the bullets will seat just fine without it . I wouldn't mind cutting out that step being that i load 1k at a time . Also being that i'm not financially able to get a Dillon 1050 and dedicate it to 223 , this is what i have to work with. I have the RCBS trim mate which is awesome , but i'm hoping not to have to.

Does anyone have experience messing with either chamfering or not , and the resultant effect on the round's accuracy ?

thanks

Aaron
Click to expand...

I too have a WFT from LittleCrow. I actually sold my Redding Micrometer lathe in favor of the WFT because it's more consistent with less fiddle time involved. I did a review of the WFT for Len Bakus and it's on his forum.

I do a couple things to reduce or eliminate the case mouth burr, One, I don't use the WFT in a drill motor but chucked in a lathe collet and run in one of my engine lathes. That provides a more ridgid platform and allows you to use 2 hands instead of one. Secondly, I replaced the shipped with 2 flute end mill with a 4 flute centercutting TiN coated end mill. The end mills are cheap compared to a proprietary cutter like most trimmers use, you can get a 4 flute for about 3 bucks from machine tool suppliers like Enco or even on Amazon.com. A 4 flute or even a 6 flute will provide more cutting edges and will cut smoother than the supplied with, 2 flute. If you go the 4 or 6 flute route, make sure yoiu get a single end mill not a double ender. You need the shank to chuck it to operate the trimmer. Double end end mills don't have enough shank.

I turn the WFT (with a 4 flute end mill installed) at a much lower speed that Dale recommends. I also keep an air hose and blowgun handy and blow out the insert every couple trims because the cartridge indexes on the chamber cut in the insert and any shavings will upset the applecart far as concentric trimming. It cuts a very repeatable SAMMI spec, much more repeatable than a conventional lathe type trimmer, across any number of cases I can hold 0.003 variation.

Be sure to put a little vaseline on the 'O' ring that secures the insert in the bearing to make removal for a caliber change easier. I don't use the wooden dowel (supplied with the trimmer) to change inserts, I just pop them out with a sharp knife blade.

With a 4 or 6 flute in place of the 2 flute and reduced operating RPM, you won't get an outside burrr at all (just let the cutter cut the brass) and don't force it....

I'm working on my own insert with a Delrin bore for trimming the Meplat on hollow point match rifle pills like the SMK.

I too routinely trim a thousand cases at a sitting, sometimes more but as a matter of SOP, I VLD chamfer the inside of the case mouths on all brass to facilitate easier pill insertion irregardless of the type of base (flat or boat tail).

Hope that helps. It's a fine trimmer and quick.
 
#15
100% you need to chamfer using the WFT or you will rip the copper jacket of the bullet

protoolsnerd said:
Hi guys
I reload a ton of 223 for 3 gun ( not precision reloading , out of a gas gun, mostly going to be shot at 100 yards and in ...mostly ) I load a couple different pills. 55 gr Hornady BT and the 69 gr nosler HPBT.

The trim on the WFT is really nice , not too ragged and i don't feel a ton of burrs or issues . Does anyone who uses this same setup feel the need to deburr and chamfer ? Seems like the bullets will seat just fine without it . I wouldn't mind cutting out that step being that i load 1k at a time . Also being that i'm not financially able to get a Dillon 1050 and dedicate it to 223 , this is what i have to work with. I have the RCBS trim mate which is awesome , but i'm hoping not to have to.

Does anyone have experience messing with either chamfering or not , and the resultant effect on the round's accuracy ?

thanks

Aaron
Click to expand...
 
#16
I had an issue with my 308 where I was getting big accuracy variations between reloads despite everything being the same. Spoke to the guys at Redding and one of the issues they suggested was chamfer. I have to say I wasn't convinced but as it was the easiest thing to do I did as I was told and put a big chamfer in. And...problem solved. Remarkable such a simple thing having such a big effect.
 
#17
SidecarFlip said:
I too have a WFT from LittleCrow. I actually sold my Redding Micrometer lathe in favor of the WFT because it's more consistent with less fiddle time involved. I did a review of the WFT for Len Bakus and it's on his forum.

I do a couple things to reduce or eliminate the case mouth burr, One, I don't use the WFT in a drill motor but chucked in a lathe collet and run in one of my engine lathes. That provides a more ridgid platform and allows you to use 2 hands instead of one. Secondly, I replaced the shipped with 2 flute end mill with a 4 flute centercutting TiN coated end mill. The end mills are cheap compared to a proprietary cutter like most trimmers use, you can get a 4 flute for about 3 bucks from machine tool suppliers like Enco or even on Amazon.com. A 4 flute or even a 6 flute will provide more cutting edges and will cut smoother than the supplied with, 2 flute. If you go the 4 or 6 flute route, make sure yoiu get a single end mill not a double ender. You need the shank to chuck it to operate the trimmer. Double end end mills don't have enough shank.

I turn the WFT (with a 4 flute end mill installed) at a much lower speed that Dale recommends. I also keep an air hose and blowgun handy and blow out the insert every couple trims because the cartridge indexes on the chamber cut in the insert and any shavings will upset the applecart far as concentric trimming. It cuts a very repeatable SAMMI spec, much more repeatable than a conventional lathe type trimmer, across any number of cases I can hold 0.003 variation.

Be sure to put a little vaseline on the 'O' ring that secures the insert in the bearing to make removal for a caliber change easier. I don't use the wooden dowel (supplied with the trimmer) to change inserts, I just pop them out with a sharp knife blade.

With a 4 or 6 flute in place of the 2 flute and reduced operating RPM, you won't get an outside burrr at all (just let the cutter cut the brass) and don't force it....

I'm working on my own insert with a Delrin bore for trimming the Meplat on hollow point match rifle pills like the SMK.

I too routinely trim a thousand cases at a sitting, sometimes more but as a matter of SOP, I VLD chamfer the inside of the case mouths on all brass to facilitate easier pill insertion irregardless of the type of base (flat or boat tail).

Hope that helps. It's a fine trimmer and quick.
Click to expand...

Awesome ! That is some great info, and using the lathe to chuck it up in is brilliant . I'm going to check all that out. When i reload for precision , i chamfer , deburr, uniform the flash hole, primer pocket , check and correct concentricity i'm almost at the meplat trimming stage. I don't want to fall down the rabbit hole with these rounds. Speed and consistency is fine by me
 
#18
As a matter of procedure, I VLD everything. I use an RCBS VLD reamer but again, I take the handle off and chuck the reamer in a lathe, that way I can use 2 hands to align the case mouth and control the cut and of course it's much quicker than the manual method.

The Giraud Machine Tool and the Gracie units are similar to the WFT with one major and costly exception. The Giraud units are self powered and are caliber specific, that is, you have to purchase a complete unit for eaqch caliber group whereas the WFT has interchangeable pilots for each caliber group (with the exception of 50BMG. The 50BMG WFT is a dedicated trimmer.

I believe that Dale at Little Crow looked at the Giraud originally, and modified it and came up with a viable, less costly alternative.

My issue with using a drill motor is it becomes somewhat cumbersome, holding the drill and feeding the case at the same time. Doable but at my age an issue.

Flash holes have always been a PITA, less with STI but still an issue. I've found that using an oxy-acetylene torch tip cleaner (available at any welding supply store) cleans flash holes nicely.

In my view, case trimming and sizing is grunt work. I always delegate that to one of the group and I handle the primer seating, charging and bullet seating myself.

Giraud also offers a case annealing machine but again, I prefer a Bench Source for simplicity. It's easy to over engineer anything.
 
#20
SidecarFlip,

You are incorrect about my trimmer. You do not need a complete unit for each different cartridge. There are interchangeable case holders and cutter heads to convert a base machine to different cartridge sizes simply by removing one set of parts and installing the other set, including the 50BMG. Not a difficult or time consuming process if you can convert a Rockchucker reloading press to resize another cartridge size.

Doug Giraud
Giraud Tool Company, Inc.
 
#21
I did a side by side comparison of your versus Dale's and Dale's is similar in concept to yours but as far as I could ascertain (without actually buying one which I had no intention to), yours lacked the interchangeability of caliber groups that Dale's did. You both use the same operating principle but again, I don't see the quick or inexpensive caliber group change that Dale's WFT has. I would also imagine that your 'parts' interchange is quite a bit more expensive than the WFT chamber insert changeout, a 15 second undertaking.

I'm impressed with your trimmer but what impresses me about the WFT is the simplicity and repeatability plus unbeknownst to Dale, his WFT can be converted quickly and easily into a meplat trimmer with a delrin insert. Of course that insert must be machined to the ogive of the bullet being cut. no biggie for me because I too own and operate a machine shop, just not in the firearm business.

The major detraction is, the 2 flute endmill. I would have supplied the trimmer with a 4 flute or optionally, a 6 flute. More cutting edges yield a smoother cut especially in soft materials.

I took a hard look at your case annealer as well. I settled on a Bench Source again, for the simplicity. I'm into 'the better mousetrap' philosophy.

Again, I think your design is very viable but you need to take a hard look at simplicity if you want to compete against Dale or even compete with the tried and true (but pain in the wrist) conventional trim lathes.

Your offerings put me in mind of offerings that commercial reloaders would employ, not a home reloader or smal potatoes person like me. It's a hobby (reloading) for me, so I operate on a budget.

If I misrepresented your machine, I apologize. However, from a simplicity and price point, the WFT wins hands down at least in my opinion (from using the WFT) and what I can surmise from studying yours (without actually having one).

Now, if you want to send me one for a comparison, that could be arranged.

I did a published review of the WFT on the LRH forum if you care to read it. I'd be happy to review yours as well.
 
#22
ZLBubba said:
I pretty much only make run 'n gun ammo for 223. I never chamfer 223 because of the sheer expenditure of time, though I always chamfer my precision ammo. If your trimmer is giving you rough cuts and serious burrs, you should probably run the brass through a quick chamfer process to be safe.
Click to expand...

+1

If it's good enough for what you are doing, there is no sense in adding a step that isn't going to matter. When I first saw this thread I was going to suggest chamfering. But, as it isn't going to matter in what you do, don't. If you ever get down the road where you are loading bulk 'accuracy' ammo. I would chamfer whether or not most of what you have made here already is giving you the accuracy you like. Reason being is it only takes one bad round in long range to get you wondering about all kinds of stuff that may not be.
 
#23
dhg2 said:
SidecarFlip,

You are incorrect about my trimmer. You do not need a complete unit for each different cartridge. There are interchangeable case holders and cutter heads to convert a base machine to different cartridge sizes simply by removing one set of parts and installing the other set, including the 50BMG. Not a difficult or time consuming process if you can convert a Rockchucker reloading press to resize another cartridge size.

Doug Giraud
Giraud Tool Company, Inc.
Click to expand...

I agree it's an easy swap I have one with 223, 308 and 300 win mag case holder plus a Giraud annealer and both machines are a huge time saver! And on another note the WFT only sizes the case where the Giraud trimmer trim while it inside and outside chamfers the case all in the same time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
 
#24
By the way everyone , i ended up chamfering and deburring. My rounds seated alright but there was far too much of a thunk when they did and it just didn't feel right. So post chamfer and deburr it's running smooth as glass.

24 gr of IMR 4895
COAL 2.200
55 gr Hornady BTFMJ

Seems to run my gun just fine, hoping to get it out to a 100 yards later in the week to confirm accuracy . Diggin the 4895 . Not too snappy, and according the reloading manuals that should be between 2900 and 3000 fps.
 
#25
Good choice...one of the main reasons most of us reload is for the purpose of improving the performance of the cartridge. Leaving out such an easy step is just lazy and pointless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
 
#26
SidecarFlip said:
I too have a WFT from LittleCrow. I actually sold my Redding Micrometer lathe in favor of the WFT because it's more consistent with less fiddle time involved. I did a review of the WFT for Len Bakus and it's on his forum.

I do a couple things to reduce or eliminate the case mouth burr, One, I don't use the WFT in a drill motor but chucked in a lathe collet and run in one of my engine lathes. That provides a more ridgid platform and allows you to use 2 hands instead of one. Secondly, I replaced the shipped with 2 flute end mill with a 4 flute centercutting TiN coated end mill. The end mills are cheap compared to a proprietary cutter like most trimmers use, you can get a 4 flute for about 3 bucks from machine tool suppliers like Enco or even on Amazon.com. A 4 flute or even a 6 flute will provide more cutting edges and will cut smoother than the supplied with, 2 flute. If you go the 4 or 6 flute route, make sure yoiu get a single end mill not a double ender. You need the shank to chuck it to operate the trimmer. Double end end mills don't have enough shank.

I turn the WFT (with a 4 flute end mill installed) at a much lower speed that Dale recommends. I also keep an air hose and blowgun handy and blow out the insert every couple trims because the cartridge indexes on the chamber cut in the insert and any shavings will upset the applecart far as concentric trimming. It cuts a very repeatable SAMMI spec, much more repeatable than a conventional lathe type trimmer, across any number of cases I can hold 0.003 variation.

Be sure to put a little vaseline on the 'O' ring that secures the insert in the bearing to make removal for a caliber change easier. I don't use the wooden dowel (supplied with the trimmer) to change inserts, I just pop them out with a sharp knife blade.

With a 4 or 6 flute in place of the 2 flute and reduced operating RPM, you won't get an outside burrr at all (just let the cutter cut the brass) and don't force it....

I'm working on my own insert with a Delrin bore for trimming the Meplat on hollow point match rifle pills like the SMK.

I too routinely trim a thousand cases at a sitting, sometimes more but as a matter of SOP, I VLD chamfer the inside of the case mouths on all brass to facilitate easier pill insertion irregardless of the type of base (flat or boat tail).

Hope that helps. It's a fine trimmer and quick.
Click to expand...
Is this what you mean? What one do we need? Have the WFT and also getting the CTS trimmer. Are these flutes interchangeable? Great tip . Thanks.
 
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