To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?

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davisj3537XSergeant
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To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/05/2017

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I've got a defiance ultralight action about 5 months out and trying to lock up the last details of the build. I can't decide if I should nitride the action or not.



I've read the below thread and very briefly discussed this with Norm from Defiance, but I don't know what I don't know. I understand nitriding is supposed to increase corrosion resistance, decrease friction, prevent galling...etc. but I don't quite understand the end result of what happens to my action if it were not nitrided. Is it going to rust up in 2 years and be galled all to hell after 10k rounds? I think I'm leaning towards not nitriding, but want to make sure that it isn't some giant mistake.



scout.com/military/snipers-hide/forums/5514-bolt-action-rifles/15132062-nitride-a-deviant

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SonicCrackXFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/05/2017
(1 vote)

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The bolt is the only part that is CM steel. That will rust a lot quicker than the action. If you do not keep an eye on the bolt, it will start to rust. If you run the bolt lugs dry, they will gall in short order. You can just have the bolt melonited. It will increase the corrosion resistance of CM and prevent galling.
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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/05/2017

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I honestly had not pondered the idea of just having the 2 bolts treated. I wouldn't think twice about that. I was just a little hesitant to have the action itself done.

Thanks for the insight man.

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MWDG3XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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I like the feel of even a sloppy factory action after melonite. Learned my lesson nitriding with the barrel hogged on. This little Howa Creedmoor will be arriving at Short Action Customs tomorrow for melonite treatment.

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017
(1 vote)

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I would pay $0 for a rifle that has been nitrided by anyone else other than the OEM. The metallurgy has been altered in ways beyond design intent.

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MWDG3XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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OEM's don't nitride, they ship their parts to facilities for treatment.

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bohemr13

X96 MONTHS
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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OEM's ship their parts out for a spec on nitride too. "It's nitrided" is like saying "That truck is painted"

Kinda like saying "I got it DLC coated"...

You can be entirely safe and entirely unsafe with nitride depending on what was specified. If you don't know what you're doing you should probably not do it.

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6mmsniperXPrivate
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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ive got an old savage action that lost a little of its bluing. i bead blasted it all off the other day. i want to send it off to be nitrided. $55 through rock creek.
guinea pig test i guess.. ive had bolts done it the past, i like it. kinda want to do a whole action.
im like you, dont know if there is any do's or dont's??

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017 Last edited 01/06/2017 by 308pirate
(1 vote)

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bohemr13 wrote:
OEM's ship their parts out for a spec on nitride too. "It's nitrided" is like saying "That truck is painted"

Kinda like saying "I got it DLC coated"...

You can be entirely safe and entirely unsafe with nitride depending on what was specified. If you don't know what you're doing you should probably not do it.​

I thought it would be understood that when I said an OEM nitrides a part it means an OEM designed the part in question to be nitrided and then had it processed. Whether or not the nitriding is done in house or subcontracted (as it is about 99% of the time) is NOT the point.

The point is that amateurs are taking it upon themselves to order heat treatments on parts that that may or may not have been designed with that specific metallurgy in mind considering the loads they are under plus the required safety factor.

I've been a manufacturing engineer for nearly 25 years, I know exactly what I'm doing. I just didn't stumble onto the nitriding or "meloniting" fad like most people in this community did a few years ago. Hell most people hought it was a "coating" and some still think it is.

You all do whatever you want to your rifles. I'm just telling you why I pass by any ad in the EE that says "melonited" or "nitrided" on it.

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FourT6and2

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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I've shot a melonited/nitrided Defiance right alongside my own, which is cerakoted with the bolt parkerized. And the difference is very apparent. I much prefer my action over one that is melonited. The melonited one felt weird. Like it was lighter or brittle or something. And mine ran much smoother and easier. But the melonited actioin was dry and I run my bolt with oil, so that's probably a big part of it. But just the feeling of the metal-on-metal when you close the bolt or when the bolt cam surface hits the receiver and makes that "clack" sound, the melonite action was almost hollow sounding. Probably just in my head. But it was pretty apparent to me.

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MWDG3XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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It does sound different dry. I oil mine even after nitride. I've spoken with several different nitriders about the process. There's no magical point of safety regarding heat. The process only works at certain temps. I understand different alloys react differently to heat, but you can't just dial it down and expect the process to work.

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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bohemr13 wrote:
You can be entirely safe and entirely unsafe with nitride depending on what was specified. If you don't know what you're doing you should probably not do it.​

I was hoping you could expand a little on this man. I realize the process is taking a previously heat treated (and then milled in this case) product and reheating it to nitride. This may reduce internal metal integrity slightly to increase exterior metal integrity significantly. Then obviously since you're doing another heat treatment you're likely going to be taking the, bolt in this case, out of spec just a bit.



Am I missing other siginficant downsides of this process?

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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I'll be honest I'm very attracted to doing just the bolts. Seems like it would prevent galling and be a little more user friendly if it was fired dry occasionally.

My thought process is that in this case if I were to later realize it was a mistake then it would only cost me 2 bolts which probably have a much shorter wait time than an entire action. If I did the action and regretted it then I'd have a bunch of barrels mated to an action I no longer wanted AND have to wait nearly a year for a replacement action.

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Hk45CTXPrivate
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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I was going to get a stainless/carbon steel colt nitrided at one point. I studied and actually called a gentlemen who nitrided precision barrels, and he said no way in hell he would touch a colt. His words were if you didn't know the exact heat treat and composition of the alloy it was a crapshoot. The gunsmith that offered the service was shocked when I told him about the conversation.

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lawofsavageXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017 Last edited 01/06/2017 by lawofsavage

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FourT6and2 wrote:
I've shot a melonited/nitrided Defiance right alongside my own, which is cerakoted with the bolt parkerized. And the difference is very apparent. I much prefer my action over one that is melonited. The melonited one felt weird. Like it was lighter or brittle or something. And mine ran much smoother and easier. But the melonited actioin was dry and I run my bolt with oil, so that's probably a big part of it. But just the feeling of the metal-on-metal when you close the bolt or when the bolt cam surface hits the receiver and makes that "clack" sound, the melonite action was almost hollow sounding. Probably just in my head. But it was pretty apparent to me.​

I have little to no technical knowledge about nitriding. However, comparing a greased/lubed action to a dry action isn't all that useful in my opinion.

I have an MPA full build with a Kelbly AtlasTactical action (nitrided). When I first got it, I had read that one benefit of nitriding was being able to run the action dry so I did that for a while and was a little disappointed since in my opinion it was about 80-90% as smooth as a blued Tikka CTR I have and less than that as a stainless T3 (both Tikka's were greased/lubed).


After I put some grease on the Kelbly it's slick as snot and is noticeably smoother than the Tikkas.

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padom

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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DLC. Ive run Josh's TL3 which is DLC coated, both the bolt and action and he runs it dry. Very slick!!

I chose to have my TL3 action DLC and leave the bolt because it already comes NP3 coated. Cant wait to pick it up.

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CharlieNCXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/06/2017

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308pirate wrote:

bohemr13 wrote:

OEM's ship their parts out for a spec on nitride too. "It's nitrided" is like saying "That truck is painted"

Kinda like saying "I got it DLC coated"...

You can be entirely safe and entirely unsafe with nitride depending on what was specified. If you don't know what you're doing you should probably not do it.​

I thought it would be understood that when I said an OEM nitrides a part it means an OEM designed the part in question to be nitrided and then had it processed. Whether or not the nitriding is done in house or subcontracted (as it is about 99% of the time) is NOT the point.

The point is that amateurs are taking it upon themselves to order heat treatments on parts that that may or may not have been designed with that specific metallurgy in mind considering the loads they are under plus the required safety factor.

I've been a manufacturing engineer for nearly 25 years, I know exactly what I'm doing. I just didn't stumble onto the nitriding or "meloniting" fad like most people in this community did a few years ago. Hell most people hought it was a "coating" and some still think it is.

You all do whatever you want to your rifles. I'm just telling you why I pass by any ad in the EE that says "melonited" or "nitrided" on it.​

So my Stiller factory nitrided receivers are no good?

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/07/2017 Last edited 01/07/2017 by 308pirate

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CharlieNC wrote:

308pirate wrote:

I thought it would be understood that when I said an OEM nitrides a part it means an OEM designed the part in question to be nitrided and then had it processed. Whether or not the nitriding is done in house or subcontracted (as it is about 99% of the time) is NOT the point.

The point is that amateurs are taking it upon themselves to order heat treatments on parts that that may or may not have been designed with that specific metallurgy in mind considering the loads they are under plus the required safety factor.

I've been a manufacturing engineer for nearly 25 years, I know exactly what I'm doing. I just didn't stumble onto the nitriding or "meloniting" fad like most people in this community did a few years ago. Hell most people hought it was a "coating" and some still think it is.

You all do whatever you want to your rifles. I'm just telling you why I pass by any ad in the EE that says "melonited" or "nitrided" on it.​

So my Stiller factory nitrided receivers are no good?​

So much fail..........

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FourT6and2

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/07/2017

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lawofsavage wrote:

FourT6and2 wrote:
I've shot a melonited/nitrided Defiance right alongside my own, which is cerakoted with the bolt parkerized. And the difference is very apparent. I much prefer my action over one that is melonited. The melonited one felt weird. Like it was lighter or brittle or something. And mine ran much smoother and easier. But the melonited actioin was dry and I run my bolt with oil, so that's probably a big part of it. But just the feeling of the metal-on-metal when you close the bolt or when the bolt cam surface hits the receiver and makes that "clack" sound, the melonite action was almost hollow sounding. Probably just in my head. But it was pretty apparent to me.​

I have little to no technical knowledge about nitriding. However, comparing a greased/lubed action to a dry action isn't all that useful in my opinion.

I have an MPA full build with a Kelbly AtlasTactical action (nitrided). When I first got it, I had read that one benefit of nitriding was being able to run the action dry so I did that for a while and was a little disappointed since in my opinion it was about 80-90% as smooth as a blued Tikka CTR I have and less than that as a stainless T3 (both Tikka's were greased/lubed).


After I put some grease on the Kelbly it's slick as snot and is noticeably smoother than the Tikkas.​

Well yeah. I agree. But I didn't have a choice in the matter. It wasn't my rifle and the owner runs it dry. So it is what it is. I run my bolt with a bit of oil (not grease). Grease on the lugs, obviously. But no grease on the bolt body. The Nitrided action had grease on the lugs. Just nothing on the body. In any event, regardless of that, the nitrided action felt weird to me.

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damoncaliXFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/07/2017

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308pirate is right. Firearms are not a place to play armchair engineer. It may be harmless, but treating structural metals that are subjected to high stresses (like guns) requires that you know what the fuck you are doing. Anything that uses high temperatures or significantly alters the hardness of the steel should be done by someone qualified to say that it's safe, which generally means it should be spec'd or okayed by the manufacturer.

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/07/2017 Last edited 01/07/2017 by 308pirate
(1 vote)

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damoncali wrote:
308pirate is right. Firearms are not a place to play armchair engineer. It may be harmless, but treating structural metals that are subjected to high stresses (like guns) requires that you know what the fuck you are doing. Anything that uses high temperatures or significantly alters the hardness of the steel should be done by someone qualified to say that it's safe, which generally means it should be spec'd or okayed by the manufacturer.​

I'm so fucking tired of trying to explain this.......thankfully someone gets it.

I bet that most people who nitride their gun don't know that the process creates dimensional growth on all surfaces exposed to it. Nor do they know about the creation of an undesirable white layer and do not know which nitriding processes allow you to reduce or inhibit it.

I knew this shit was going to be trouble when I started reading about all these fucking knobs referring to melonite (and similar processes) as "coatings".

And here's another tidbit from a professional: don't rely on the recommendations of a heat treat house as gospel. They have no way of knowing what the condition of the material is prior to processing and they can only go from what you tell the. I also guarantee you that their terms and conditions specifically disallow any and all liability above and beyond the processing cost.

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bohemr13

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/08/2017 Last edited 01/08/2017 by bohemr13
(1 vote)

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308pirate wrote:

bohemr13 wrote:
OEM's ship their parts out for a spec on nitride too. "It's nitrided" is like saying "That truck is painted"

Kinda like saying "I got it DLC coated"...

You can be entirely safe and entirely unsafe with nitride depending on what was specified. If you don't know what you're doing you should probably not do it.​

I thought it would be understood that when I said an OEM nitrides a part it means an OEM designed the part in question to be nitrided and then had it processed. Whether or not the nitriding is done in house or subcontracted (as it is about 99% of the time) is NOT the point.

The point is that amateurs are taking it upon themselves to order heat treatments on parts that that may or may not have been designed with that specific metallurgy in mind considering the loads they are under plus the required safety factor.

I've been a manufacturing engineer for nearly 25 years, I know exactly what I'm doing. I just didn't stumble onto the nitriding or "meloniting" fad like most people in this community did a few years ago. Hell most people hought it was a "coating" and some still think it is.

You all do whatever you want to your rifles. I'm just telling you why I pass by any ad in the EE that says "melonited" or "nitrided" on it.​

A-freaking-men!
Subbing out coating, platings and heat treat is incredibly common. When I send parts out for heat work or plating work they come with a job sheet detailing exactly the materials, current heats and what I want it to return as. Insofar as the required surface prep media, mix, and blast pressure for certain things. I also have hardness testing equipment in house and ready access to other metallurical and higher end metrology. Perks of the career.

I've turned down a lot of work from folks that sent me actions which were "melonite coated" by the last gunsmith.



ETA :

And yeah, I get it. Perhaps it wasn't clear in what I said above on the first post but there's a lot of folks claiming "so and so has been doing it for years therefore..."

I was banging this drum for years on the old forum, to other gunsmiths I knew doing it and I still tell them it's a bad idea.





I will say, with regards to an OEM designing for something to be nitrided as an assumption: I would expect it in other industries but in the gun industry I have seen so many things that make me cringe. My formal training, career experience and hobby is all based on data, data, data. If you can't generate by test you better have a damn good, high fidelity model showing Validation by Analysis. That's what I still do, validation by analysis. If I can't do it by analysis then there has gotta be test data. Preferably both.

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/09/2017

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...and I'm gonna pass on nitride. lol

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/11/2017 Last edited 01/11/2017 by 308pirate

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Hk45CT wrote:
I was going to get a stainless/carbon steel colt nitrided at one point. I studied and actually called a gentlemen who nitrided precision barrels, and he said no way in hell he would touch a colt. His words were if you didn't know the exact heat treat and composition of the alloy it was a crapshoot. The gunsmith that offered the service was shocked when I told him about the conversation.​

I'm not surprised. Most gunsmiths (about 99% I'd say) know less than zero about nitriding. Or MIL-H-6875, or AMS-H-6875, or the AMS 2759 series of heat treatment specifications.

This stuff is way outside the lane of most gunsmiths.

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Prebanpaul

XGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/14/2017

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Has any one ever had a melonited or nitrite gun, fail, specifically because of this. I have never seen one, yet heard of one. On the entire internet I have yet to find one. I only spent five minutes, so I could have missed one. Its amazing, no one has ever confirmed that one has failed due to this, yet there is millions of them done out there. Just Saying.

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/15/2017

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For me the issue wasn't so much worry about a failure. It was that the treatment process taking things out of spec.

If I understand correctly, Defiance machines their actions/bolts after they are heat treated. Nitriding heats everything back up and warps the parts just a bit. In theory you're taking a trued action and untruing it.

Not that you needed an explanation; I'm just thinking out loud so if my theory is wrong I can be corrected.

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UKshuggyXPrivate
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/15/2017

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I believe that Accuracy International bolts may be nitrided. Which just goes to reiterate the point that the treatment has to be an integral part of the design and manufacturing process, not an aftermarket treatment.

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FourT6and2

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/15/2017

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I think BugHoles sells or sold some Nitrided Defiance actions. If I remember correctly, they said they came treated from Defiance. Someone I know was running one. That's the one I was talking about earlier. I didn't like it.

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ltdmstr

XCorporal
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/15/2017

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Nitriding itself is not a problem. And properly done, it's an excellent choice for many types of firearms. There are companies like H&M that do a ton of OEM work, and know very well what they're doing with this process. But like anything else, if you give the job to an idiot or someone who's inexperienced, chances are pretty good they're going to screw it up.

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damoncaliXFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/15/2017

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Nitriding has been done to barrels for decades. I have some data from some old M60 barrel life tests where they tested various versions of the process. It's safe if properly done. But it's the kind of thing where if you do it wrong, and something else weird happens, you wind up with a perfect storm of problems that contribute to a catastrophic failure. It's a matter of doing things right.

Just as you don't send your action out to be re-heat treated, you shouldn't send your rifle out to be nitrided. There's nothing wrong with heat treating either (indeed, it's necessary), but you want whoever is doing it to know what they're doing, and it's not like you can tell by looking at a piece of steel what has been done to it. It's an integral part of the manufacturing process, not an add-on.

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LongRiflesInc

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/15/2017 Last edited 01/16/2017 by LongRiflesInc

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I'm going to parrot a bit on what Josh has stated here.

A very close and personal friend has been pursuing this venture at a high level. The result has been great personal expense and a growing collection of artifacts that were once gun parts.

Nitride, Melonite, Ferritic Nitro Carburizing, Gas Nitriding, Salt Bath Nitriding, etc... The process has similar characteristics in that the intended outcome is a corrosion tolerant surface of increased abrasion resistance via improving the hardness.

What you end up with is a hard boiled egg. If you put a big enough fire cracker inside it and detonate, you will have egg on your face. Count on it.

With 416 type SS's you can be playing with fire. The likelyhood is that you'll use it for years with no trouble. Fuck up once and set off a bomb in your action (squib load, H110 instead of H1000, blockage, jag coming off and not catching it, etc) and you'll live my experience where an action blew up in my face and sent me to the ER with an orbital fracture and torn retina.

-EDIT: ...and the subsequent police investigation because it "involved" a firearm, and the cost(s) in repairs to my building due to pieces killing lights, holes in the ceiling, etc...

Because it has been done does not mean it should be done. First of all, the facility doing the work should know what the exact material condition is. 416 is like gramma's bread. It's all good but some are certainly better than others. The material involves complex chemistry and unless the company making shit from it is buying extremely high grades, one just does not know. Buying those high grades is tough because big companies in bigger industries than guns consume massive quantities of it.

I don't want to start a fight with anyone over this. That is not my point here. My advise is if you go down this path you better have some formal education in metallurgical science and you better have solid prints of the parts you are sending out so that the treatment schedules can be adjusted accordingly.

Best of luck to all.

C.

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Kadams1563XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/15/2017

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Bugholes.com sells them and I purchased one from him.

I didn't do my research and now I'm a little worried but that's $1400 I can't get back so it's getting built. I don't know if it has warranty or anything in the action but if I have a problem I'll be calling everyone. They shouldn't be sold nitrided IF it's dangerous or causes structural issues.
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GhengisAhn175XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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Oh my god everyone is freaking out about nitride.

If you're getting a defiance action nitrided that they had sent out you're fine.

If you're getting anything else not done or requested by the original producer then that's on you. Nitriding has been done to a lot more things than just actions that take way more of a beating.

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LongRiflesInc

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017 Last edited 01/16/2017 by LongRiflesInc

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GhengisAhn175 wrote:
Oh my god everyone is freaking out about nitride.

If you're getting a defiance action nitrided that they had sent out you're fine.

If you're getting anything else not done or requested by the original producer then that's on you. Nitriding has been done to a lot more things than just actions that take way more of a beating.​

2012/2013 ish timeframe. 338 Lapua. Defiance action.

Owner goofed and gassed up 90+ grains of Varget and iced the cake with a 300 grain bullet. -wait for flash, lol... Action was split into 3 pieces. The bolt was roughly 20% bigger at the head/face. It took a 5lb sledge to remove it.

Action was not nitrided.



What would of happened if it was? There's a number of people who feel they have a definitive answer and after seeing what I've seen I'm pretty sure I have an opinion as well. Just cause you can does not mean you should. Comparing it to other parts out in the world is a bold approach I'm afraid. How many are thin walled pressure vessels operating in the 50-60 ksi cup within close proximity to someone's face?



If the ambition here is improved lubricity by a reduction of friction, DLC is a better option. It's applied at a temperature low enough to where there is no metallurgical influence on the parts. It doesn't do that well for corrosion tolerance, but my take on that is how many guys are buying custom actions/rifles and leaving them out against the tree in the back yard for weeks at a time?











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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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That's yet another vote for DLC. If the process doesn't require heating beyond the point of warping parts or sacrificing internal metal hardness then it seems to me you're going to get increased lubricity with no real downside that I've read about yet.

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GhengisAhn175XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017 Last edited 01/16/2017 by GhengisAhn175

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Chad,

Either way the operator error in that instance cannot be ignored. Whether it's nitrided or not that charge is going to be a catastrophic event. No explosion is ever going to be the same twice period.

I don't really care what guys do with their rifles be it DLC, nitride, cerakote, etc. none of these in itself are going to be the point of failure which is what some are alluding to as well as others believing it.

Defiance isn't going to have their product optionally nitrided if it in of itself is going to cause failures. If it's something defiance does and Kreiger on their barrels it at least has some merit.

Argue the opposite for a second: it's an option available to increase lubricity and give a nice sleek look. As long as you're using it as intended then you'll be fine.

Now to argue on your points, yes it's a delicate process and it's definitely not like the other options. You have higher risk for something going wrong if an untrained tech does it or out of spec material gets nitrided.

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5RWill

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017 Last edited 01/16/2017 by 5RWill

---

padom wrote:
DLC. Ive run Josh's TL3 which is DLC coated, both the bolt and action and he runs it dry. Very slick!!

I chose to have my TL3 action DLC and leave the bolt because it already comes NP3 coated. Cant wait to pick it up.​

Agreed, i went DLC on my Tempest. No worries about excessive heat on certain parts.

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LongRiflesInc

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017 Last edited 01/16/2017 by LongRiflesInc

---

GhengisAhn175 wrote:
Chad,

Either way the operator error in that instance cannot be ignored. Whether it's nitrided or not that charge is going to be a catastrophic event. No explosion is ever going to be the same twice period.

I don't really care what guys do with their rifles be it DLC, nitride, cerakote, etc. none of these in itself are going to be the point of failure which is what some are alluding to as well as others believing it.

Defiance isn't going to have their product optionally nitrided if it in of itself is going to cause failures. If it's something defiance does and Kreiger on their barrels it at least has some merit.

Argue the opposite for a second: it's an option available to increase lubricity and give a nice sleek look. As long as you're using it as intended then you'll be fine.

Now to argue on your points, yes it's a delicate process and it's definitely not like the other options. You have higher risk for something going wrong if an untrained tech does it or out of spec material gets nitrided.​

Ahh, but it does change it. That's my point. People fuck up. We get that. Running the guy that did this through the tree chipper isn't the ambition here.



Where the nitriding becomes relevant is that in this instance, as in: When you step on your crank and make a mistake like this, the action does not merely split apart and lock up the bolt. It goes BOOM and gun parts become shrapnel. It has an effect on the heat treatment of the parent material which leads to cascading effects to tensile strength, modulous of elongation, when it goes plastic, etc... Terms I confess that I barely understand.

That material is heat treated at the manufacturing facility or by an outside vendor. Typically in an atmospheric furnace or (better) a vacuum furnace. 416 is hardened at 1750 to 1800 F with a soaking period at the temp to ensure the entire part is at a martensitic state. The material gets to be about 38-42 Rockwell C after quenching. It depends greatly on the grade used and the skill set of the process. It starts to draw (normalize, anneal, call it what you will) at 750-1050 F.

WHAT is the typical temperature used for the bulk of Nitride salt bath processes? 900-ish F. That is regardless of whether its atmosphere or immersion. What to pay attention to: You are in the upper percentile range of the 416R annealing temperature. It softens the material...hard boiled egg analogy.

If you want a more persnickety definition of what is taking place here you go:

Martensite is formed by rapid cooling (quenching) of austenite which traps carbon atoms that do not have time to diffuse out of the crystal structure. This martensitic reaction begins during cooling when the austenite reaches the martensite start temperature (Ms) and the parent austenite becomes mechanically unstable. At a constant temperature below Ms, a fraction of the parent austenite transforms rapidly, then no further transformation will occur. When the temperature is decreased, more of the austenite transforms to martensite. Finally, when the martensite finish temperature (Mf) is reached, the transformation is complete.





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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017 Last edited 01/16/2017 by davisj3537

---

5RWill wrote:

padom wrote:
DLC. Ive run Josh's TL3 which is DLC coated, both the bolt and action and he runs it dry. Very slick!!

I chose to have my TL3 action DLC and leave the bolt because it already comes NP3 coated. Cant wait to pick it up.​

Agreed, i went DLC on my Tempest. No worries about excessive heat on certain parts.​

Can I get you to expand on this a touch? Is it that DLC breaks down under excessive heat or something OR are you talking about a noob tech doing the DLC treatment and accidentally getting things too hot?



Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

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sandwarriorXFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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Late to the party here. Can someone spell out DLC? Duralar?
I have to agree with those who caution against doing agrressive hardening processes that bring the base material close to a "one time" heat finish.
In regards to coatings, how many types have proven to peel up?

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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Diamond like carbon coating I believe.

There is a method that can be accomplished at near room temp...though I haven't ascertained the pros/cons of each method yet.

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

---

GhengisAhn175 wrote:
Chad,

Either way the operator error in that instance cannot be ignored. Whether it's nitrided or not that charge is going to be a catastrophic event. No explosion is ever going to be the same twice period.

I don't really care what guys do with their rifles be it DLC, nitride, cerakote, etc. none of these in itself are going to be the point of failure which is what some are alluding to as well as others believing it.

Defiance isn't going to have their product optionally nitrided if it in of itself is going to cause failures. If it's something defiance does and Kreiger on their barrels it at least has some merit.

Argue the opposite for a second: it's an option available to increase lubricity and give a nice sleek look. As long as you're using it as intended then you'll be fine.

Now to argue on your points, yes it's a delicate process and it's definitely not like the other options. You have higher risk for something going wrong if an untrained tech does it or out of spec material gets nitrided.​

What are your professional qualifications in this area?

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GhengisAhn175XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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You know 308pirate I guess since most of us here don't have an engineering degree we just can't compete with you here on the forums.

In fact after this thread and spread of gospel I suppose defiance is going to go out of business seeing as how nitrided actions is not only the cool thing but it's also unsafe now.

Save it 308, I've already seen your discussions on other threads and there's just no competing against your degree.

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LongRiflesInc

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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The issue you will find with DLC is that it is a "line of sight" process. Meaning if you wanted a barrel coated inside that barrel would have to be no more than an inch or two in length. Directing the process down a deep, narrow cavity is outside the ability of the process in today's world.

Same holds with actions which can make parts like the receiver bore a bit shady at times.

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GhengisAhn175XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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LongRiflesInc wrote:

The issue you will find with DLC is that it is a "line of sight" process. Meaning if you wanted a barrel coated inside that barrel would have to be no more than an inch or two in length. Directing the process down a deep, narrow cavity is outside the ability of the process in today's world.

Same holds with actions which can make parts like the receiver bore a bit shady at times.​

On that note chad how detrimental is it not having the coating on the inner cavities vs the outside?

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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I appreciate the wealth of knowledge being hemorrhaged in this thread. Thanks guys.

If I only DLC'd the bolts this would not be an issue. Still have lots more reading to do on my own but you guys have saved me a great deal of time.

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5RWill

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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davisj3537 wrote:

5RWill wrote:
Agreed, i went DLC on my Tempest. No worries about excessive heat on certain parts.​

Can I get you to expand on this a touch? Is it that DLC breaks down under excessive heat or something OR are you talking about a noob tech doing the DLC treatment and accidentally getting things too hot?



Thanks for any clarification you can provide.​

I was referencing Nitriding as far as the temp issue was concerned, least that's what i remember reading about it from people much more knowledgeable than me on the subject. DLC to my understanding isn't a high temp procedure. That's why i said i went DLC over Nitride. I could've misinterpreted what i read though and be completely off base.

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/16/2017

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5RWill wrote:

davisj3537 wrote:
Can I get you to expand on this a touch? Is it that DLC breaks down under excessive heat or something OR are you talking about a noob tech doing the DLC treatment and accidentally getting things too hot?



Thanks for any clarification you can provide.​

I was referencing Nitriding as far as the temp issue was concerned, least that's what i remember reading about it from people much more knowledgeable than me on the subject. DLC to my understanding isn't a high temp procedure. That's why i said i went DLC over Nitride. I could've misinterpreted what i read though and be completely off base.​

I'm seeing I just misread your post now. Thanks

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knockmdown

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/17/2017

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davisj3537 wrote:
I appreciate the wealth of knowledge being hemorrhaged in this thread. Thanks guys.

If I only DLC'd the bolts this would not be an issue. Still have lots more reading to do on my own but you guys have saved me a great deal of time.​

Sent this bolt to to PVA Josh for DLC. Action is naked, runs smoooooth...



[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":" photo A96EEFCE-8D0C-4B59-A3DB-5B1954B5EB49_zpsbr8mw7o9.png","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i12.photobucket.com\/albums\/a228\/fredo411\/A96EEFCE-8D0C-4B59-A3DB-5B1954B5EB49_zpsbr8mw7o9.png"}[/IMG2]



Have a couple more bolts to have DLC'ed, and contemplating having a (different) Deviant action DLC'ed, as well. If only to knock the bright shine off it, as it will be used for hunting. If not for that, I'd prolly leave the action naked & just run DLC'ed bolts...

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308pirateXGunny Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/17/2017 Last edited 01/17/2017 by 308pirate

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GhengisAhn175 wrote:
You know 308pirate I guess since most of us here don't have an engineering degree we just can't compete with you here on the forums.

In fact after this thread and spread of gospel I suppose defiance is going to go out of business seeing as how nitrided actions is not only the cool thing but it's also unsafe now.

Save it 308, I've already seen your discussions on other threads and there's just no competing against your degree.​

The problem with the internet is that it has become the "holiday inn".

Everyone is all of a sudden an "expert" because they read a little bit on whatever topic.

My degree is less important than my 22 years experience. My opinion about amateurs playing metallurgist and heat treater is shared with other pros on this site, so don't need your validation.

Have fun discussing things you know nothing about.



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scudzuki

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/17/2017

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UKshuggy wrote:
I believe that Accuracy International bolts may be nitrided. Which just goes to reiterate the point that the treatment has to be an integral part of the design and manufacturing process, not an aftermarket treatment.​

AI bolts and receivers are nitrided.

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phxfaXFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/17/2017

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Surgeon bolts are nitrided, they blast them prior to shipment so no black, receivers are not done and NOT recommended by Surgeon. I just went through this with Surgeon

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/17/2017

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knockmdown wrote:

davisj3537 wrote:
I appreciate the wealth of knowledge being hemorrhaged in this thread. Thanks guys.

If I only DLC'd the bolts this would not be an issue. Still have lots more reading to do on my own but you guys have saved me a great deal of time.​

Sent this bolt to to PVA Josh for DLC. Action is naked, runs smoooooth...



[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":" photo A96EEFCE-8D0C-4B59-A3DB-5B1954B5EB49_zpsbr8mw7o9.png","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i12.photobucket.com\/albums\/a228\/fredo411\/A96EEFCE-8D0C-4B59-A3DB-5B1954B5EB49_zpsbr8mw7o9.png"}[/IMG2]



Have a couple more bolts to have DLC'ed, and contemplating having a (different) Deviant action DLC'ed, as well. If only to knock the bright shine off it, as it will be used for hunting. If not for that, I'd prolly leave the action naked & just run DLC'ed bolts...​

Man that thing is purty. McMillan stock right?

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knockmdown

XFirst Sergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/18/2017

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Thanks, yes...
A3

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RickyRodneyXCorporal
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/25/2017

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This is a very interesting and informative thread. Cleared up some of the myths of nitride treatment.

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pangelos

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/27/2017

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Not trying to stir the pot or piss anybody off but is there any pictures of a nitrited action have a catastrophic failure...i would sure like to see them

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5RWill

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/27/2017 Last edited 01/27/2017 by 5RWill

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Skip to the 3min mark. Ted mentions that he DLC'd the reciever and bolt head and nitrided everything else. He didn't elaborate much at least not in John's video, other than saying he didn't feel like he'd made a safe receiver nitriding it.

pangelos wrote:
Not trying to stir the pot or piss anybody off but is there any pictures of a nitrited action have a catastrophic failure...i would sure like to see them​

Curious about this as well. I went DLC on my tempest to avoid any possible issues. Wish i would've cerakoted the barrel though. 425$ for a finish was hard to swallow.

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JADEprecision

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/27/2017

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pangelos wrote:

Not trying to stir the pot or piss anybody off but is there any pictures of a nitrited action have a catastrophic failure...i would sure like to see them​

One of Ted's employees showed me a nitrided action that failed while at SHOT...all 100 pieces in a zip lock bag. I don't recall if it failed during the process, or on the gun. Hopefully the former! I should have snapped a picture.

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davisj3537XSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/27/2017

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JADEprecision wrote:

pangelos wrote:

Not trying to stir the pot or piss anybody off but is there any pictures of a nitrited action have a catastrophic failure...i would sure like to see them​

One of Ted's employees showed me a nitrided action that failed while at SHOT...all 100 pieces in a zip lock bag. I don't recall if it failed during the process, or on the gun. Hopefully the former! I should have snapped a picture.​

That's a scary damn thought. 100 pieces!!! I can't imagine how you'd blow up an action during the process, but I'm about as far from a metalurgist or expert on this as possible. I would venture to guess that if the action was different colors then it happened on the rifle. One color on the outside and one for the interior metal that the treatment couldn't have changed. I would imagine someone more knowledgeable will lend some knowledge.

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JADEprecision

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/27/2017

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davisj3537 wrote:

JADEprecision wrote:​

That's a scary damn thought. 100 pieces!!! I can't imagine how you'd blow up an action during the process, but I'm about as far from a metalurgist or expert on this as possible. I would venture to guess that if the action was different colors then it happened on the rifle. One color on the outside and one for the interior metal that the treatment couldn't have changed. I would imagine someone more knowledgeable will lend some knowledge.​

Well maybe not 100, but enough that they had to carry it around in a zip lock. I'll dig his card out tonight and see if I can contact him again for more specifics.

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LongRiflesInc

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
01/27/2017 Last edited 01/27/2017 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)

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The Mausingfield action you saw at Shot Show is from a purposely conducted destructive analysis test. IT WAS NOT on a customer piece.

Ted has a grave of killed Mausingfields that have gone through various forms of Nitriding. They've been intentionally destroyed for the sole purpose of exploring the process for potential use on the production scale.

I am the guy who chambered most of the barrels for them. Squibs, plugged bores with cleaning rods, cases gassed up with H110, etc...

There is a variety of different ways that he has gone about blasting his stuff to pieces.

The point here is data points taken as a result of actual destructive analysis. Not speculation, guesswork, or feeling like there is strength in numbers. (because physics do not care as to how smart you think you are or how many align with your thought process) His results are pretty conclusive and they were obtained by actual testing. Testing committed to a variety of scenarios and circumstance. Not just by gassing up a singe case with dynamite and going for it.

In the world we hope to live in, no action is going to "boom" on us from nitriding. That isn't the concern. It's when you faak up that it'll bite you. If you have a pulse, you are not beyond the reach of Murphy's law. Arrogance and confidence are often sleeping together. It's a great way to end up in an ER on a Sunday afternoon.

Again. ARC/Ted intentionally destroyed these receivers. They were test rigs to prove out whether or not nitriding the receivers created a liability. It does. Period.



If there is anything to take from this at the consumer level, it should be comfort and confidence. This action has been tested extensively. More extensive than any other manufacturer I am aware of. (and I have worked for a couple at a high level) You stick your face behind this thing and pull the trigger, you can have the confidence of knowing your face will still be there after the jolt from recoil hits your shoulder. Having once had an action detonate on me resulting in an orbital fracture and torn up eyeball, I cannot begin to describe to you how good it feels to know this and believe it.

Buy with confidence. The Mausingfield is a robust and rugged piece of equipment.

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BrushyHillGuideXCorporal
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To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
Monday at 4:45 PM

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davisj3537 wrote:


For me the issue wasn't so much worry about a failure. It was that the treatment process taking things out of spec.

If I understand correctly, Defiance machines their actions/bolts after they are heat treated. Nitriding heats everything back up and warps the parts just a bit. In theory you're taking a trued action and untruing it.

Not that you needed an explanation; I'm just thinking out loud so if my theory is wrong I can be corrected.

​

I just purchased a Nitrided Defiance Deviant action from Bugholes.com. I almost didn't after reading this thread. It did get me to call Defiance and ask them - I was worried about the precise action going out of spec from the treatment, after reading some of the comments in here. I called twice and talked to 2 different people. BOTH assured me that the Nitrided Defiance actions sold by Bogholes would be 100% covered by their warranty because the nitriding has been done by H&M. They explained that they worked extensively with H&M to insure that the process used on their actions would not change or do harm to their precise actions. They told me I could buy those actions with absolute confidence. Now, Defiance cautioned me that nitriding done by OTHER companies MAY cause damage and may not be covered by any warranty - they do not recommend other companies. I also talked to my GS for this build, a very renowned shooter and GS, and he said he's had ZERO problems with Nitrided actions and he recommended I go with the Nitride action over cerakote for my hunting rifle build on a Defiance action. Based on these two positive recommendations, I bought one from Bugholes. I've got no doubt it's going to be an amazing build.

I'm sure someone will disagree but I think Defiance knows what they're talking about and I know my GS does two. If you can't have confidence in them, who CAN you trust? Especially when Defiance backs an independent distributor's actions. Pretty good testimony to the quality of the product.

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pangelos

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
Monday at 6:49 PM

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So here is my $150k question. I know Ted has built some bombproof equipment and I won't agrue that he has done some extensive testing on nitrited and non-nitrited mausingfields and feels safer with a non-nitrited MF, that being said do you think a nitrited MF will stand up to more pressure without major carnage and broken pieces than say a standard Remington? I guess in short which one is safer??

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Meplat

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
Monday at 7:30 PM Last edited Tuesday at 5:46 PM by Meplat
(1 vote)

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It depends is the short answer.

When someone says "4340" or "chrome moly 4140" that's not all there is to it. Beyond the range of % variation of each element allowable for the particular grade of steel, there are a half million (hyperbole) ways to treat the stuff. It can be hot rolled, cold rolled (work hardened), normalized, annealed, heat treated to a whole range of hardness, have surface treatments like nitride, case hardening, etc..

Each treatment is going to behave differently. You can have the same steel with a 40ksi yield strength, and a 250ksi yield strength. You're changing grain or crystalline structure and it changes the strength (ultimate tensile, yield, shear), ductility, etc... It also changes wear characteristics, crack formation, nature of failure. Admittedly, I know just enough about this stuff to know that there's a lot more to it than I'm likely to ever know, and the spectrum is so much broader than I ever thought before.

So a part is designed to a dimensional and material specification with controlled tolerances to have some sort of idea of what's going to happen based on (most likely) computer stress/strain and wear simulations to ensure the safety of the part both during normal use and failure. In the case of a receiver, it's better for it to bend and absorb energy than to shatter and throw frag, for example.



So is a Remington "CM 4140" at an unknown state (prior treatment???) or an ARC M5 going to be stronger after having the heat treat jacked with and a surface treatment changed?



Can't say without knowing the material (Ted has said 4340 is used in some parts of the M5, but I don't think that's all of it), it's current condition, exactly the process used, temps, soak times, and even at that some material testing and FEA simulation would probably be in order to give a definitive answer. Typically strength increases with hardness, but ductility reduces. Here you're taking the inside of the material (relatively thin-walled pressure vessel) and cutting the hardness down (softer, weaker), and putting a super-hard shell on it. The hard stuff is going to be more prone to cracking (albeit with better wear characteristics, lubricity, and corrosion resistance), the inside is going to be weaker. End result is probably very similar between the two during a catastrophic failure. More fragmentation.



So under normal use, is it really going to matter? Probably not. It'll maybe last tens of thousands of cycles. But when/if it fails, it fails big. I mean guys made .300 Weatherby and Winchester Magnums out of model 98 Mauser rifles and M1903, M1917's, P14's, etc. Certainly the metals used back then weren't as consistent or as strong or tough as some of the stuff being used today... but then again, they're probably less forgiving in a catastrophic failure than an M5 is, too. They're GOING to wear out or fail eventually...



It's like shooting steel, really. Everyone suggests 75-200yd. You can get away for a while with shooting it at 10, 20, 30, 40 yards, but you're increasing the the chance you catch frag the closer you go. How close do you want to go? How close do you recommend to your friends/customers? That's basically what's going on with this discussion.



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karagiasXSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
Tuesday at 2:41 PM

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Chad from LRI brought this thread to my attention. Reading it almost makes me want to quit making actions.

Know this. There are bodies of knowledge beyond your horizons. This is true for everyone. So unless you are in the position to extensively test an action for strength and reliability, DO NOT ALTER IT'S METALLURGY! I cannot emphasize this strongly enough. Nitriding significantly alters metallurgy so don't do it.

When I select a combination of material, heat treatment, and surface treatment, I do so by first taking an educated guess. Then I conduct tests that invariably teach me something and leave me with questions that can only be answered with more tests. This cycle continues until I think I have learned enough to proclaim that the action is safe under certain conditions.

Speculation on the relative safety between actions manufactured by different companies is utterly pointless, if not stupid. Such a comparison requires information that you do not have.

Ted

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pangelos

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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
Tuesday at 3:53 PM

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Wow...thanks for that great info Ted. Lots of data there to back up your opinion on nitrite. You brought absolutely nothing to the conversation. At least Chad was making some valid points on the cons of doing it. Then to belittle people's questions... you should probably take some of that R and D money and invest in a person to do your PR. I for one have a lot of ARC stuff from M10 rings to a Mausingfield that the warranty is now void on but you can be darn sure if this is your approach to dealing with a conversation the i for one will not own another ARC product.

Bring some facts to the table. You have the data how hard is it to show to others?

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karagiasXSergeant
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Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
Tuesday at 5:22 PM

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Evidently, I didn't make my point clear. So here it is, explicitly stated.

I don't have the data to make a comparison between a nitrided Mausingfield and anyone else's action. I have only tested my own actions. Testing has led me to conclude that, under certain circumstances, a nitrided receiver of a Mausingfield action can fail in an explosive manner that can be potentially lethal to either the shooter or bystanders. I will not disclose the details associated with the testing I've done because I don't want people drawing their own conclusions from it nor do I want to freely share it with my competitors because obtaining it was very expensive.

Nitriding can significantly affect the manner in which components fail. Parts that put the safety of the user at risk should not be metallurgical altered without testing for safety. I really don't care if other manufacturers agree with this or not. And even if I knew exactly what type of material and heat treatment another manufacture was using, I still wouldn't be able to judge safety of subsequent nitriding without testing. Experienced engineers are conservative because nearly all of them have been blind sided by either something that they overlooked or by something that just came as a complete surprise. That's why we test.

Ted

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karagiasXSergeant
Rating: 3.4/5 this site
185 posts this site
Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
Tuesday at 6:32 PM

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Oh, and I apologize to Pangelos. It wasn't my intention to offend anyone. Altering the metallurgy of safety critical parts is a topic that I think warrants strong language.

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BrushyHillGuideXCorporal
Rating: 3.0/5 this site
60 posts this site
Re: To Nitride Or Not To Nitride?
Wednesday at 9:56 PM

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I didn't start this thread to people heated up - no pun intended. I appreciate all the replies and it sure gave me something to think about. I wouldn't have chosen the nitrided action I did without the assurances given me by the manufacturer; and I don't think I would choose a nitrided action (after reading all this) for a build on a big caliber like a .338. However, for my 6.5 CM build I feel safe and that's what I was looking for.

I know people are passionate about their opinions but lets keep it friendly and respectful, huh? Thanks again y'all!

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[MWDG3]

What kind of testing would you metallurgical engineers recommend after nitriding? A simple Rockwell?

 

[Ledzep]

Rockwell will tell you the surface hardness. Not much else. May give some insight if the process was done correctly if you know what it should be.

 

[Vettez06]

I bought my Defiance Deviant from bugholes.com already nitrided, its definitely different compared to my cerakoted defiance. But I still run a little bit of grease on my bolt just to keep it from being dry and metal on metal. I prefer it over my cerakoted deviant.


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[surgeon260]

As a consumer of information on this forum (as opposed to the experts who educate people like me), the numerous threads on this topic have been incredibly unhelpful in answering the question "Should I have the chrome moly bolt in my custom action nitrided?" There are respected forum members on here who say nitriding and precision gun parts don't belong in the same sentence, and yet there are respected companies like Bugholes selling nitrided Defiance actions. So who is right?

This confusion has led me to do additional research and make some phone calls to my gunsmith and my action manufacturer. I have come to the conclusion that the term "nitride" is overloaded on this forum and is used to refer to a plethora of different processes, from high temp salt baths (which will absolutely affect the heat treatment and tensile strength of your gun parts) to much lower temp particle deposition (which will not alter the heat treatment of your parts). There also seems to be an equal amount of confusion about the effect of heating an already heat-treated precision gun part to a high temp, and the extent to which this is detrimental to safety margin.

I think there is so much confusion about not only the physics/chemistry involved in these techniques but also in the specific technique being discussed that threads such as this are counterproductive. I found the answer I was looking for by talking to my specific action manufacturer and my gunsmith about my action's metallurgy and the specific surface finishing technique that was going to be applied. Vague, catch-all discussions about non-specific "nitriding" processes and their effects are just muddying the waters.

For what it's worth, based on the expert recommendations of those who understand my rifle build and EXACTLY what process will be applied to my action (including by whom, at what temperature, for how long, etc), I chose to have my bolt...wait for it...nitrided.