To PCC or not to PCC...?

[supercorndogs]

Mine is 16". I can hear a lot of the 9mm ammo I have for it breaking the sound barrier. I think I built my entire rifle for less than 350. I was looking at PCC parts on Midway just before my birthday, then when my b-day rolled around they were all on my birthday pricing list. AR stoner barrel was like 30, upper recover was like 30, bolt was maybe 60. I ordered a TN Arms Co, composite lower. I had to do some filing on it to make it fit. ITs been 100% with glock mags, but I probably only have 500 rounds through it. Its a fun novelty. I wish I would have held out for 40 S&W or 10mm PCC parts, kind of.

 

[dogman]

This thread inspired me to throw some 147gr down range next trip.

 

[scudzuki]

I built 2 uppers with the same CMMGs radial delayed blowback 8.5" barrel and BCG combos employed in their Banshee weapons.
Everything else is standard AR stuff, using CMMG conversion mags (Gen 2 PMAGs) so the uppers function with any AR lower.
I didn't want the heavy recoil and potential FCG issues (they also break hammer pins) of a straight blowback 9mm AR. CMMGs design eliminates both potential issues with a delayed blowback system that has half the parts of an MP5. All things being equal, the fewer the parts, the better. Brilliant and simple design.
I like the firearms quite a bit.

 

[scudzuki]

MP5 still the greatest subgun ever made, smooth, low recoil, countless accessories, runs like greased owl shit.

Every self proclaimed gun guy should have one or three. As American as Apple Pie and Big Tits.

I had 3 of them, or rather, my wife did, after her brother died. Looked into form 5ing them.
Couldn't justify keeping them for the $$$ they are worth. Sold them for a little over $22k each.
Too rich for my blood. Built the aforementioned Banshee clone uppers. The uppers drop right on a FA lower.

I've heard they run great on a FA lower at full song.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I had 3 of them, or rather, my wife did, after her brother died. Looked into form 5ing them.
Couldn't justify keeping them for the $$$ they are worth. Sold them for a little over $22k each.
Too rich for my blood. Built the aforementioned Banshee clone uppers. The uppers drop right on a FA lower.

I've heard they run great on a FA lower at full song.

Should have kept them, they are probably worth north of $40K each now.

Nothing comes close to a MP5. Everything else is a compromise. I converted another gunnut into a MP5 fanatic. He has about a dozen other subguns/PCC and now he took his SP5 out, hes "gets" it. Throw a can and a binary trigger on there if your state allows, its the most fun you can have with pants on.

 

[theLBC]

getting harder to resist with more options, but i still have no use for it besides fun, and fun isn't exactly in the budget.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I've heard they run great on a FA lower at full song.

they do, it's one of the only reasons I'd ever actually build a PCC on an AR frame, though I'd probably still run a conversion block over using the endomags, mostly because I already have several extended P320 mags

 

[scudzuki]

Should have kept them, they are probably worth north of $40K each now.

Nothing comes close to a MP5. Everything else is a compromise. I converted another gunnut into a MP5 fanatic. He has about a dozen other subguns/PCC and now he took his SP5 out, hes "gets" it. Throw a can and a binary trigger on there if your state allows, its the most fun you can have with pants on.

I have shot 3 MP5s, 2 of them pistols, the other integrally suppressed. They were fun to shoot. Also an M60, M16, AKM, M1919, probably forgetting a few. A friend is a class III FFL with a cabin in the mountains.
In semi auto, the CMMGs are just as nice to shoot, and it's an AR so adding accessories is inexpensive with a vast selection.
MGs could be legislated out of existence or at least locked to the current owner which would make them worthless.
Too big of a gamble IMHO. So I sold the M16A1 and A2, M15 Nuarmco lower, Thompson M1A1, S&W Model 76, and Uzi pistol.
Nowhere around here to shoot them FA anyway.
I still have the HK Spezialkoffer operational briefcase (need an MP5k for that) and HK .22 LR adapter. And a few stocks including one collapsible.

A pic of the first pistol built with CMMG radial delayed parts. It now sports an EOTech and a Franklin Arms binary trigger.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I have shot 3 MP5s, 2 of them pistols, the other integrally suppressed. They were fun to shoot. Also an M60, M16, AKM, M1919, probably forgetting a few. A friend is a class III FFL with a cabin in the mountains.
In semi auto, the CMMGs are just as nice to shoot, and it's an AR so adding accessories is inexpensive with a vast selection.
MGs could be legislated out of existence or at least locked to the current owner which would make them worthless.
Too big of a gamble IMHO. So I sold the M16A1 and A2, M15 Nuarmco lower, Thompson M1A1, S&W Model 76, and Uzi pistol.
Nowhere around here to shoot them FA anyway.
I still have the HK Spezialkoffer operational briefcase (need an MP5k for that) and HK .22 LR adapter. And a few stocks including one collapsible.

A pic of the first pistol built with CMMG radial delayed parts. It now sports an EOTech and a Franklin Arms binary trigger.

You are high if you think some AR trash 9mm is anything close to a roller lock like the MP5.

Its not even comparable. The AR is a terrible 9mm host for a number of reasons. Colt tried to steal market share from HK years ago and failed miserably for the same reason. End users and people who shoot these guns for a living know what works and what doesn't.

The modern SBR has all but made PCC/Subguns obsolete unless you are assassinating people in their sleep with a MP7. The MP5 is still king however, and its no coincidence that is why demand for them has been crazy since you could buy one.

Nothing is smoother or softer shooting in a 9mm package. The trigger sucks but can be fixed with a FA or aftermarket and some spring work.

 

[stefan73]

You are high if you think some AR trash 9mm is anything close to a roller lock like the MP5.

Its not even comparable. The AR is a terrible 9mm host for a number of reasons. Colt tried to steal market share from HK years ago and failed miserably for the same reason. End users and people who shoot these guns for a living know what works and what doesn't.

The modern SBR has all but made PCC/Subguns obsolete unless you are assassinating people in their sleep with a MP7. The MP5 is still king however, and its no coincidence that is why demand for them has been crazy since you could buy one.

Nothing is smoother or softer shooting in a 9mm package. The trigger sucks but can be fixed with a FA or aftermarket and some spring work.

and then came the JP5

 

[stefan73]

i'd guess a fair amount of the demand is for uspsa, where 'pistol' pcc's aren't allowed and folks may not want to deal with the SBR process. i started with a 14.5 + 1.5 and then later built (assembled) a SBR for a little more maneuverability. both are way fun!

The outlaw group I shoot with will run braces since their stuff is not SBR'd

 

[cressida]

I really like my Macon Armory 16" 45acp DI upper.
Didn't want a blow-back action.
This thing eats what ever ammo I feed it.
Built it on an Anderson lower. (Rudy only sells uppers)
Later added a Devil Dog side charger.
I may cut the barrel back a little, and do a pin & weld on the flash hider

 

[Anb618]

View attachment 7803749

Some of you guys are way too responsible. Looting the kids’ 529 plans and buying PCCs was one of the best things I’ve ever done.

God I want a P90 so freaking bad.
Hate that this example of 90’s tech is still $1,600 (for a PS90 16”)

 

[MadDuner]

The outlaw group I shoot with will run braces since their stuff is not SBR'd

My group was disappointed in me for paying the $200 blood money to make an SBR...

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

and then came the JP5

Are they out yet? Very neat design and pricey even if its ugly as fuck like all JP guns.

 

[NewsShooter]

I've got a couple, they're fun, won a nice one in a raffle, the second is an aero precision build, both have 16 inch barrels, bought parts when they were on sale. Both have a Holosun red dot, 8 inch plate at 100 yards is easy, wives and kids love to shoot them as there is hardly any recoil.

 

[TurboTrout]

A 7000 series 80% lower with a JP 8-10” upper

Folding stock/brace

Single stage trigger

 

[TurboTrout]

God I want a P90 so freaking bad.
Hate that this example of 90’s tech is still $1,600 (for a PS90 16”)

As much as a scifi dork as I am, I just can’t get that into one, especially if it’s not full auto

 

[TurboTrout]

The outlaw group I shoot with will run braces since their stuff is not SBR'd

 

[WindstormSCR]

You are high if you think some AR trash 9mm is anything close to a roller lock like the MP5.

Its not even comparable. The AR is a terrible 9mm host for a number of reasons. Colt tried to steal market share from HK years ago and failed miserably for the same reason. End users and people who shoot these guns for a living know what works and what doesn't.

The modern SBR has all but made PCC/Subguns obsolete unless you are assassinating people in their sleep with a MP7. The MP5 is still king however, and its no coincidence that is why demand for them has been crazy since you could buy one.

Nothing is smoother or softer shooting in a 9mm package. The trigger sucks but can be fixed with a FA or aftermarket and some spring work.

I've fired many different 9mm FA subguns and plenty of non-FA PCCs (the benefits of being friends with a few members of the local class III club) and having shot a FA MP5 and an FA CMMG RDB upper back to back, yes with a properly set buffer the CMMG is just as nice.

I have to agree though that modern SBRs properly set up are infinitely better. as fun as the two above were, the FA lower with a sig MCX 300blk 9" suppressed upper (PT trip bar) was both more practical and just as well tuned.

 

[scudzuki]

You are high if you think some AR trash 9mm is anything close to a roller lock like the MP5.

Its not even comparable. The AR is a terrible 9mm host for a number of reasons. Colt tried to steal market share from HK years ago and failed miserably for the same reason. End users and people who shoot these guns for a living know what works and what doesn't.

The modern SBR has all but made PCC/Subguns obsolete unless you are assassinating people in their sleep with a MP7. The MP5 is still king however, and its no coincidence that is why demand for them has been crazy since you could buy one.

Nothing is smoother or softer shooting in a 9mm package. The trigger sucks but can be fixed with a FA or aftermarket and some spring work.

Yep it was a revolutionary system when it was intoduced 56 years ago. That was, well, 56 years ago, though.

Do some research on the CMMG radial delayed blowback system and actually shoot one before you offer your expert opinion.

It's not some trash AR 9. It's not a straight blowback or DI action. The action is unlike anything before it and it's so stupid simple I can't believe no one though of it before. It offers the same advantage (delayed opening) as a roller delayed action with 1/2 the complexity and moving parts AND because it's built on the AR platform it has the most customization options (triggers, sights/optics, grips, Picatinny rail accessories, to name a few) of any rifle or pistol platform out there. You can run the same grip and trigger as the AR you train with. It requires the same manual of arms as the AR you train with. The bolt locks back on an empty mag. I could think of more but I think I've made my point.

In 25 years in manufacturing and engineering and another 15 doing my own gunsmithing, shooting guns all the while, I've actually learned a few things. One of the most important lessons (for many engineers) is that least complex mechanism that will accomplish the desired role tends to be the most reliable and cost effective.

Or just bury your head in the sand. I don't care what you believe.

 

[stefan73]

Are they out yet? Very neat design and pricey even if its ugly as fuck like all JP guns.

The test runs are out. I think Q2 they will be out if they aren't already, I'll have to check on the Enos forum. Next month I'll be putting in my order with them.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I'll have to check on the Enos forum.

Have fun with that.

 

[Eric B.]

I bought a RUGER PC chassis carbine in November of 2021. Since then I got it ready for Steel Challenge competition.
UPGRADES: all M*CARBO internal and external parts, many MAGPUL parts like MBUS sights, pistol and fore grips, etc., TACCOM Delrin mag well, Midwest Industries folding stock "knuckle", LBE AR tube and RUGER-supplied MOE adjustable stock with MAGPUL 1/4" cheek piece for eye-to-reticle alignment with the HOLOSUN AEMS circle/dot sight.
(The mag well and cheek piece were not on the PCC at the time of the photo.)

 

[gxer]

I'm left handed and I own and shoot 16" CMMG Resolute, I think it used to be called CMMG Guard, with the RDB action, on top of a MK4 lower, which takes any AR mags.

One thing I loved about this platform is how much technology innovation went into it (both the action and the mag) yet it is still very affordable. It is even cheaper if you just go buy the upper or the bolt. If you shoot a lot, the most expensive part of your package will be ammo and with CMMG RDB you will shoot a lot of it. The 16" 9mm barrel has its place, especially dealing with the legal complexity in some states.

Things to consider about a 16" CMMG RDB with ARC mags:

• Identical to a regular 5.56 AR15 ergo, but the recoil feels like a toy gun
• Because of the low recoil, this could be a good choice for beginners who wants to learn marksmanship and AR platform
• At muzzle, a 9mm bullet shot out of a 16" barrel has around 50% more energy than the same bullet shot out of a 4" pistol (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html)
• If you are a lefty, prepare to eat blowback, there will be lots of it
• If you are OCD and loves to keep your gun clean, Cleaning it after the action is going to make you regret that you have shot so much ammo
• Accuracy isn't its strong suit. Maybe this is ammo depended but I usually don't get reliable hits pass 100 yards with 115 gr FMJ, which is what I have stockpiled
• Burnt brass, burnt brass everywhere...

 

[SporterII]

RRA offer very solid 9mm stuff. No Glock? Perfect. Colt sub gun mags from Metalform. CAR in 9mm from RRA and a 10.5” spare barrel to install when the tax stamp comes. I prefer the early version receiver and ramped bolt they offer.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

I'm left handed and I own and shoot 16" CMMG Resolute, I think it used to be called CMMG Guard, with the RDB action, on top of a MK4 lower, which takes any AR mags.

My only issue with shooting these was that they are pretty gassy with a can from my experience with the 6" version. So if you buy one of these as a dedicated host gun you might want to think twice or do some extra research.

 

[gxer]

My only issue with shooting these was that they are pretty gassy with a can from my experience with the 6" version. So if you buy one of these as a dedicated host gun you might want to think twice or do some extra research.

Yup, can confirm even without a can, you will get stuffed with a full course blowback meal out of a couple of mags

 

[Naaman]

I'm left handed and I own and shoot 16" CMMG Resolute, I think it used to be called CMMG Guard, with the RDB action, on top of a MK4 lower, which takes any AR mags.

One thing I loved about this platform is how much technology innovation went into it (both the action and the mag) yet it is still very affordable. It is even cheaper if you just go buy the upper or the bolt. If you shoot a lot, the most expensive part of your package will be ammo and with CMMG RDB you will shoot a lot of it. The 16" 9mm barrel has its place, especially dealing with the legal complexity in some states.

Things to consider about a 16" CMMG RDB with ARC mags:

• Identical to a regular 5.56 AR15 egro, but the recoil feels like a toy gun
• At muzzle, a 9mm bullet shot out of a 16" barrel has around 50% more energy than the same bullet shot out of a 4" pistol (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html)
• If you are a lefty, prepare to eat blowback, there will be lots of it
• If you are OCD and loves to keep your gun clean, Cleaning it after the action is going to make you regret that you have shot so much ammo
• Accuracy isn't its strong suit. Maybe this is ammo depended but I usually don't get reliable hits pass 100 yards with 115 gr FMJ, which is what I have stockpiled
• Burned brass, burned brass everywhere...

I really am starting to like the CMMG (as PCCs go, anyway), due to the radial delayed operation (as opposed to straight blowback). For whatever reason, I thought the Banshee was the RDB. Didn't know they offered it in two formats. I'll have to research the differences.

 

[Malcolm31]

Check out the 9mm PCC’s from JP!

 

[wdnoynksl34]

>$3k for a 14" 9mm? I'd go MP5 clone..

 

[TonyTheTiger]

>$3k for a 14" 9mm? I'd go MP5 clone..

It kinda is. But better.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

>$3k for a 14" 9mm? I'd go MP5 clone..

Or try a b&t apc9 pro. Recoil is light, has rails, ambi controls and other current century goodies.

 

[TurboTrout]

JP - JP-5™ Rifle

 

[stefan73]

Or try a b&t apc9 pro. Recoil is light, has rails, ambi controls and other current century goodies.

I currently am playing with a Stribog A3, until I get a JP5. Curved mags, short stroke kit and trigger spring kit are the only way to go with the Stribog.

 

[HKslave]

A buddy of mine has told me that he's "finally" convinced to get an AR given the times we are living in. After talking about it a while, he decided he wants to get something in 9mm because he does not want to deal with any additional calibers (currently, his only rifle caliber is .308). He has asked for my recommendation (budget is around $1200).

I know that he is not going to mess around with any stamps, so for him, we are looking at rolling the dice on a pistol/brace build, or a full 16" barrel.

Now, all the "experts" like to say that PCCs "don't suck" and the reasons and examples they offer usually revolve around SBRs and suppressors.

In this case, though, I'm having a hard time recommending something that doesn't suck, because in my personal opinion, if one is to bother with a long gun, it damn well better shoot something more powerful than 9x19. However, I don't want to discourage him from exercising that 2A muscle. I just can't fathom why one would want to take the weight/size penalty of a rifle only to dispense pistol-level firepower.

In my mind, the sweet spot for a PCC is a barrel 6 to 9 inches, and with a brace (unless one is inclined to SBR it). Anything outside of that, and I just can't justify the cost of one as a serious duty/self defense rig given other choices (shorter than 6 inch barrel, we're looking at sidearm ballistics; 10 inches and longer, might as well go 5.56).

Am I missing anything here? I get that they are fun to shoot, but so are airsoft guns.

Even still, my current list of recommendations is (in no particular order):
CZ Scorpion Evo
B&T GHM9 (if he's willing to come up a couple hundred)
CMMG Banshee
And I'm thinking about adding the Stribog A3 to the list pending more info.

Cz scorpion

 

[wdnoynksl34]

I currently am playing with a Stribog A3, until I get a JP5. Curved mags, short stroke kit and trigger spring kit are the only way to go with the Stribog.

why the desire for a 14" barrel PCC?? do they offer unlisted service of a sane length??

 

[stefan73]

why the desire for a 14" barrel PCC?? do they offer unlisted service of a sane length??

Pinned to 16". The recoil impulse is smoother, way more smoother. USPSA requires it to be a carbine and I don't have to SBR it to meet the requirements.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Pinned to 16". The recoil impulse is smoother, way more smoother. USPSA requires it to be a carbine and I don't have to SBR it to meet the requirements.

When I first assembled my PCC it had a 5" barrel with a comp followed by aluminum extension pinned on to make 16". Man was the front fast and light, but it was very snappy. I put maybe 2k rounds on it that way but then switched to a 14.5" with pinned on Brekke comp before I finally took it to a match. It's way more pleasant now.

 

[stefan73]

I'm just excited, waiting for this to make it out to my hands.

 

[HOOFER]

In my opinion. Unless it’s select fire pistol cartridges are best used as pistols/side arms.

The most famous sub guns are auto and from a time where m16s has 20” barrels.

A 8” blackout or a 10.5” 556 with 75 grainers is better off.

I did at one time run a GHM9. So that my pistol and primary would be same ammo. It was my travel/hotel gun.


Just my 2 cents.

 

[stefan73]

In my opinion. Unless it’s select fire pistol cartridges are best used as pistols/side arms.

The most famous sub guns are auto and from a time where m16s has 20” barrels.

A 8” blackout or a 10.5” 556 with 75 grainers is better off.

I did at one time run a GHM9. So that my pistol and primary would be same ammo. It was my travel/hotel gun.


Just my 2 cents.

Mine is for shooting USPSA competitions, training.

 

[HOOFER]

Mine is for shooting USPSA competitions, training.

Yeah totally get that.

 

[Naaman]

I've been slowly coming around to the idea of getting a PCC for myself. But as for right now, the only ones I'd consider would be chambered in 10mm, 5.7 or 4.6. Leaning more toward 10mm PCC because I have been looking at a Glock 40 as a "walking around" pistol for camping/hunting.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

I've been slowly coming around to the idea of getting a PCC for myself. But as for right now, the only ones I'd consider would be chambered in 10mm, 5.7 or 4.6. Leaning more toward 10mm PCC because I have been looking at a Glock 40 as a "walking around" pistol for camping/hunting.

The only thing I don't like about my b&t apc9 is that is not a 10mm. Though 9mm made more sense as it matches the chambering of my handguns.

 

[Naaman]

The only thing I don't like about my b&t apc9 is that is not a 10mm. Though 9mm made more sense as it matches the chambering of my handguns.

Agreed. To me, 9mm is the best reason not to buy a PCC. lol!

If I do come around to actually dropping cash on one, the APC10 and the CMMG are the ones on my short list.

 

[CK1.0]

It's a fact that weak-ass 9mm rounds will just bounce off like with a Nerf gun (and really only just piss the BG's off even more)...

All real operators know this.

 

[Naaman]

It's a fact that weak-ass 9mm rounds will just bounce off like with a Nerf gun (and really only just piss the BG's off even more)...

All real operators know this.

At the price points I'd be shopping at for a PCC (north of $1500), I feel like it's wasteful to spend that much on a "long gun" that performs marginally better than a handgun--which can be had for $400-600, which, in 9mm, is far more versatile/useful, IMO.

Based on my research so far, 10mm is actually able to make much better use of the barrel length than 9mm.

Anyway, we already covered the issue of bullet performance vs barrel length earlier in the thread.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

It's a fact that weak-ass 9mm rounds will just bounce off like with a Nerf gun (and really only just piss the BG's off even more)...

All real operators know this.

That's why it's got 30 of them!

 

[earthtrekker1775]

At the price points I'd be shopping at for a PCC (north of $1500), I feel like it's wasteful to spend that much on a "long gun" that performs marginally better than a handgun--which can be had for $400-600, which, in 9mm, is far more versatile/useful, IMO.

Based on my research so far, 10mm is actually able to make much better use of the barrel length than 9mm.

Anyway, we already covered the issue of bullet performance vs barrel length earlier in the thread.

The apc 9 pro fits a niche in my stable. It is 0.4" shorter overall length collapsed than a S&W Model 460 and I can run it very quiet if I want to with a suppressor and subs.