Today's dumb question brought to you by A06 (Steel plates and fire)

[Anchor Zero Six]

Escaping this shithole state for a few weeks and going to visit family and friends in WA. Was really excited to go back to my dads property in central WA (high desert) and shoot steel out to 1K.

He said we probably cant because of the fire hazard in Aug. FWIW his property also serves as the county SWAT range and is adjacent to the firing range. The PD follows the flag conditions of the firing center and so does my dad. If the range is not shooting because of fire hazard neither do we.

This got me thinking and since I have a wee bit of knowledge in metal properties it just confused me.

How does a copper jacketed lead bullet hitting a steel plate start a fire? Last time I checked neither lead or copper sparks when struck against steel.

Now I know there have been fires started by shooting steel plates I just want to know how.

I have two theories and I believe I know which is probably correct but figured I would see what you guys think or know.

First possibility is the bullet hits the plate and falls into dry brush and the heat starts a fire? Never tried to catch a bullet bouncing off a plate and dont intend to but I suppose the energy of impact could be rather hot.

Second and I think this is the right answer is I bet the fires started by shooting plates are guys running steel core rounds and or tracers. This would explain why the firing center frequently does no shoot days.

 

[MtnCreek]

Bullets (copper jacket, lead core) will show glowing splash when shooting steel at night. Whether that's enough to start a fire, I ain't got a clue.

 

[EddieNFL]

Friction = Heat

 

[Rthur]

A few years back the Hide Cup was shot in WY.
The conditions were very dry low humidity.
They claimed an errant spark/heat source had a 85% chance of starting a fire.
The match was shot and I didn't hear of any fires as a result.
The amount of vegetation/fuel may have had a part in the above.
I can't say if hot copper/lead from impact can achieve combustion.

R

 

[WATERWALKER]

Not really along the same lines, but I remember shooting an M60E3 in July / August aboard Camp Pendleton. Conditions were very dry to say the least. While hammering away on the '60, another Marine called a cease fire. The hot brass being expended had caused a grass fire.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

As I understand it, it is the "mooshability of the molecules" as the bullet impacts upon the steel that creates such heat. Not unlike bending a coat-hanger back and forth enough times, to break it. It will be 'hot' as well.

In the case of the bullets, there's a whole lot of deformation in a very short time span, which causes the copper/lead projectile to build up a fair amount of heat from the friction. Like I said: Mooshability.

The latest tactical catch-phrase.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Not really along the same lines, but I remember shooting an M60E3 in July / August aboard amp Pendleton. Conditions were very dry to say the least. While hammering away on the '60, another Marine called a cease fire. The hot brass being expended had caused a grass fire.

Yep. The only fire I personally know of that was started by a shooter (cousin) was the brass landing in grass at his feet. A few years ago this was a big deal due to brush fires and the news interviewed the state fire marshal and he stated. A metal detector is brought in to the starting area of a fire and 9 times out of 10 they find a bullet at the starting spot. Take that for what you want.

 

[vh20]

the news interviewed the state fire marshal and he stated. A metal detector is brought in to the starting area of a fire and 9 times out of 10 they find a bullet at the starting spot. Take that for what you want.

I'm not directing this at you, 2A, but the marshal - that's total BS unless there's more to that story. Cigarettes, campfires, lightning, and arson are all well-known to the greatest causes of wildfires. Yet this clown says NINETY PERCENT are caused by a bullet. And I'm assuming this is in the absence of steel targets for the bullet to impact to create heat. And, finding a bullet with a metal detector in the "area" where a fire started is a genuine needle in a haystack. I'd almost bet they've NEVER found (or even attempted to find) a bullet at the origin of a fire, OR if they did, it just happened to be there coincidentally from before. I can't see a bullet, in the absence of hitting steel, starting a fire at all, but ninety percent is a flat out lie.

 

[sandwarrior]

Agreed...that fire Marshall is full of shit. Nine times out of ten it's an un-extinguished cigarette. I see this all the time still in N. Idaho, S. Utah, Kansas, New Mexico. Unbelievable how many jackasses still toss burning cigarettes from vehichles.

FWIW, the probability is there. Mooshable molecules creating heat is a good explanation. Although, THAT probability is extremely low. The higher probability, in order, is tracers, steel core then hot brass. Not so much sparks off steel plate with steel core, unless it's sitting in tinder dry vegetation (bronco/cheat grass in August), it's a miss in the rocks with dry grass right there. It flares before you get to it. With hot brass you can stomp it quickly enough 'cause you're right there.

I've seen tracers, steel core (M855 & M856, M194, M62) and hot brass all start fires.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Well since we have many theories but no actual explination I suppose I wasnt such a dumb question.

Both my guesses were supported and I found a new terminology in smooshness lol.

 

[TheGerman]

Friction generates heat, metal retains it well.

It may be 1 in 1 billion, but when that 1 time happens especially out here in the dry desert and you can't put it out, its going to get out of hand fast.

I always have a fire extinguisher in the Jeep for exactly this reason.

 

[2ndamendfan]

I'm not directing this at you, 2A, but the marshal - that's total BS unless there's more to that story. Cigarettes, campfires, lightning, and arson are all well-known to the greatest causes of wildfires. Yet this clown says NINETY PERCENT are caused by a bullet. And I'm assuming this is in the absence of steel targets for the bullet to impact to create heat. And, finding a bullet with a metal detector in the "area" where a fire started is a genuine needle in a haystack. I'd almost bet they've NEVER found (or even attempted to find) a bullet at the origin of a fire, OR if they did, it just happened to be there coincidentally from before. I can't see a bullet, in the absence of hitting steel, starting a fire at all, but ninety percent is a flat out lie.

Well yea I think he full of shit also. Not saying a bullet can't start a fire but his reasoning is flawed. During the interview he showed a dozen intact bullets he had found at the "origin" of a fires. Now I am no fire marshal but if a fire burns 1000 or 10,000 acres can you find the EXACT spot? Or just get close with in a few yards? If a bullets hits a rock an makes a spark, the spark might cause a fire but the bullet will be no where near that spot (ricochet) also, does he have any idea how much shooting goes on out in the west desert. I see bullets on the ground all the time. Just thinking there are enough out there that just because one was found I don't think that could be the sole determiner. You would need witness or something.

Again I have see brass ejected catch grass on fire. I am sure a bullet is a lot hotter than the brass. I just think that if a cause can't be found it is easy to blame target shooting.