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Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

#51
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Here is some more Hide heresy; see the I'm Rethinking This Whole Heavy Rifle Thing thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1378194&#Post1378194


Have a Rem 700LA with Williams floorplate, custom 24.5" barrel, Steel bases and rings, plus a Leupold 1-4x and 1" sling and the whole rig weighs about 9.5lbs. Put a 4.5-14x on and weight goes to 10lbs. Delivers a 250gr bullet at 2600fps from an 06 case.

Maybe there is a venue for a weight limit class for sniper competitions? Kind of a Hunter Benchrest thing for tactical rifles?

Match up an 11.5 pound light-tactical with a 17.5 heavy in the field and see how a skilled wind-reading, hard-holding guy/gal can perform with it?
 
#52
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

If you like to shoot fast, a light palma barrel chambered in .243win will start to loose it's accuracy after about 70-80rounds. Barrel heats up way too fast. My m24 countour in .308 used to hold 1/2moa all day long, in 100 degree weather with rounds counts over a 100. You can't have your cake it eat it too, unless you only shoot prone with a heavy tactical rifle. I'm thinking the medium weight barrels are the way to go.

AICS stocks are heavy, and tend to be more forgiving for shooting errors. A lighter stock like an A5 with a light fill takes more concentration to shoot accurately in my opinion.
 
#53
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Its funny to read comments by people who have never humped a ruck with a 40 t boned over it. I think most are forgetting the other 100 pounds of shit were carrying besides the gun.

Bottom line is that my requirement is for a gun that can take a maximum amount of abuse, can deal with harsh, dirty climates (not the range), is light enough for me to lug around WITH my other gear, and is accurate enough for me to hit a person with at the ranges I need it to.
 
#54
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Big thick rifles are manly.
Like big thick Harleys and big thick trucks.

It would be much funner to wack a zombie at 1 km with a big thick heavy rifle. What's the point in doing the same with some wimpy light rifle?

I like looking manly with my big thick rifle. I just wish my barrel was about 2.5" thick and I had a bigger scope. I just don't want to carry it. :[
 
#55
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

I figure an operator will lug around whatever he's issued. I don't think that validates anything.

I also figure that if an operator has to start slinging a volume of rounds downrange, he might as well shut down and turn the mission over the guys with the M2's or M240's, because it's pretty likely the element of surprise/concealment is blown anyway.

For a <span style="font-style: italic">reasonable</span> degree of precision marksmanship, I seriously doubt the extra mass buys enough advantage to be worth lugging. Yes, ruggedness counts, but unless I make a point of slinging my piece around irresponsibly, I think there's a high probability I could keep my piece intact sufficient to fulfil its mission, without it needing to bear resemblence to Gibraltar.

Loadouts. Don't get me started on loadouts.

When I was in the Corps, a Marine hit the beach with a tin pot helmet, haversack, bedroll, web gear, and rifle. At most, inclusive, maybe 50lb. Then I was intro'd to the flack jacket. Still not sure about that idea, yet.

Just how is it that warriors have become confused with pack mules, of late?

It would appear to me that strategic thinking begins by incrementally seeing how much additional encumbrance can be imposed on a warrior before the misson becomes completely compromised. IMHO, we passed that point several decades back...; right about the time Molle was introduced.

Greg
 
#56
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Is this discussion about a soldier hitting the beach, or a sniper getting to his hide? Are we talking about the every day carry weapon of today's soldier, or the specialty long range weapons? Seems to me there's a big difference in both. Wasn't the original discussion directed at today's precision rifles, because I don't consider an M4 bulky or heavy, which is what I think most guys are going to "hit the beach" with.
I dunno...I was a crewchief on Blackhawks in peace time...I did my time, but by His Grace, I have no real battle experience. Seems this discussion went aray right off the bat.
 
#57
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

3.25# action,
1.5# bottom metal & mag,
6# stock,
6.5# barrel,
2.75# scope,
1# base & rings

Above is about correct for "state of the art" custom rifle aspired to, believed to be "the best" on this site. Weighs over 20lbs. Might be more if a magnum.

Does any of this gear enable ammunition to perform "better" than if launched from same chamber/barrel specs from a half-as-much weighing rifle? No.

Does a precision outfit weighing 11 pounds and firing a .308 or .260rem ctg, recoil that much less from a 21 pound rifle than from one weighing 11 pounds? No, not that much less.

How many rounds from one position could you expect to fire before moving? Three? Four? Even a Winchester Featherweight barrel isn't going to walk its point of impact with three or four shots...

Forgot to add a bipod and monopod, stock pack, sling etc to the list above. Wow, the weight does add up!

The soldier hitting the beach with an M4 is screwed. That is a step back in the other direction. A 20" barreled AR is a RIFLE with range of delivery. A 14.5" M4 is a building-sweep carbine that needs selective fire to inspire fear and awe.

Someone being paid to shoot, shoots what he/she is issued.

My premise is a half-as-much weighing rifle can shoot with the heavies, and do things they cannot. A barrel between a #3 sporting contour and a Varmint contour is about perfect. Fluting might help even more. An H-S Precision BDL/Sendero or McM HTG or similar stock will do all that's possible, while saving over 3#. A Nightforce 2.5-10 NXS or Leupold scope weighing 20 oz or less will do the job. Could probably even use a Leupold AR scope 3-9x w/M2 knobs and mil-dot or TMR.

We are not looking for a rig that will thread the button, just hit it.
We are not looking to fire 20 precision rds on a longrange target in 10mins or less; we need only fire 5-10 as in real life failure to move/relocate gets you killed.

We gain more versatility from an 11 pound rifle with simpler scope.

Why isn't your sniping rifle your SHTF choice? Probably because it weighs too much. I have carried 75lbs on my back at 11,000 elevation. Am I a wimp for not sucking it up and getting the job done with a heavy? Or does losing 12lbs from my rifle package, enable me to carry a lot more ammunition or gear?

The next question is a matter of chambering, but that's for another topic.
 
#58
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Amen to that!<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this thread about what the military should do, or what the shooters in this forum should do? I thought the latter. I could careless what the military does...they can't even get the caliber right.</div></div>
 
#59
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

I think compact (wieldy) and balance are of more importance than weight. I have shouldered a 16lb rifle that had a short barrel and it balanced extremely well and was very comfortable. Why not have it all though? I want a lightweight precise durable compact rifle, that's why I'm still saving my money to pay for it!
 
#60
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Some funny stuff here: tampax and gold's gym...lol. It's all about what you do with your rifle and how far you gotta hump it. Go watch a few hunting videos in the backcountry where they have to hike in a few miles with all their gear. All the big boys are carrying 7 & 8 pound rifles with modest scopes. 15lb rifles....you can be sure there is a vehicle nearby. I totally agree with the consumerism and tacticool comments. But this is certainly a minority view. Heck, I think I am the last guy on earth that actually walks the golf course, but I digress.
smile.gif
 
#62
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

this is a good thread , and has lots of opinions , depending on what type of shooting we all do

I wrote some comments about my thoughts on this in several issues of www.sniperworx.com

my last two builds were a departure from my first two builds

first two builds were KMW-Terry Cross guns AICS 1.5/308 MTU contour, 16lbs total weight and a AICS 2.0/300winmag nbrsa #17 contour at 28" , 18lbs total weight

both were hammers and a joy to shoot as long as i was prone;

the taller my position got , the 'less fun' it became to shoot them, and after several competitions of humping a heavy rifle around , i started to rethink what i wanted in a usable precision rifle

i read some ideas of what others were doing, like Mike Miller and his lightweight rifle build that was a Hide rifle package years ago, and the book 'the art of the rifle' , etc.,

coupled with my own experiences of disliking a heavy gun, i sold them both, and educated myself of what were the big components , weight wise; AICS stocks are freaking heavy - so i nixed that option, i took my other things to the local post office and had them weigh them out, then made a 'build sheet , SPEC sheet' for the upcoming build, listing each component, its weight and justifying each one

the big three are barrel, stock and optics/rings

for instance a Harris bipod weighs 19oz
take the bipod off and you instantly loose one pound !
i carry a pack most times when i shoot , so i can use that instead -




and so on,

i used aluminum were i could , stuck with a BDL bottom metal (2nd build has a Badger M5, but still beat the 12 pound mark using aluminum rings, base and keeping the barrel short), shortened the barrels, lightened the contours, went with weight saving technology like a McMillan A1-3 using the edge graphite, choose smaller, shorter optics, and above all, put more thought into what i wanted than just duplicating what i saw here or elsewhere.

the other side of this , is i would not go back to a heavy rifle , UNLESS i made a trade off and bumped up to a larger caliber than .308win;

humping a heavy rifle is stupid; with todays technology, you can have a light precision rifle built that is tough as nails, using quality components, and keep the weight down below 12 pounds easily . . .a Rem. LTR with aluminum rings / base quality 2.5-10x or 3.5-10x scope can get the job done most times -

obviously , MIL snipers don't have to many options; they must carry what have available ;

but if weight can be saved, say from 17 pounds down to 12 , thats 5 pounds of ammunition that could be carried or water or another piece of critical gear instead of a boat anchor of a rifle

great thread!
 
#64
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

I carried a M14EBR, 14.5lbs, as a SDM in Iraq and still had to have my m4 with 6 mags. I never once thought about a lighter rifle, or less ammo. The shitty armor is a different story. Side plates are a fucking joke. Just more shit to make some pussy up top feel good. But an ounce is an ounce right. So if you could make it lighter without degrading any performance then why the hell not? Any weight saved, would in the end mean something else to carry in place of that weight. More water, ammo, or some dumbshit that someone thinks is a good idea. Just my .02
 
#65
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

I finally have my two custom rifles back after starting this process a year ago: weights and components shown below. These two rifles are super-accurate rigs that can be used for back-country humping and hunting and practical/tactical comps.

INTERESTING TID-BITS LEARNED:

The difference in weight between the Surgeon RSR action(w/ rail & recoil lug) and the integral-rail Surgeon is only 2 ounces....2 stinking ounces. I would have used the integral rail model for both rifles if I had known this. The only thing you are getting with the RSR is a small price reduction and an inferior action. I say inferior meaning the integral rail & recoil lug of the other model make it much better.

I forgot how much a BDL floorplate sucks in the reliability department. I chose the aluminum floorplate to save a few ounces. But, the crappy "spring" and side-to-side feeding make this bottom metal too unreliable. I decided it is worth a few extra ounces to get the uber-reliable HS-Precision detachable with center-feed mags. I'm not a fan of the AICS style assemblies because of how the magazine protrudes from the bottom of the stock.


Weight does NOT determine how accurate your gun is. Some of the best shooters win multiple competitions with one light-weight rifle. In other words they enter heavy gun comps with their light gun and win it. Heavy is great for taming recoil, long-strings of fire, and in bench-rest & belly benchrest(F-class). None of that applies for these rifles.

The sling weighs 1/2 pound. Take that out and the weights shown below are pretty damned good.

Surgeon does NOT use a standard firing pin because their bolt-face is slightly thicker. A standard pin must be turned down a bit for it to function.

Here are my rig weights.....got tacticool in a lightweight package:

WEIGHTS (with Scope & Sling)
A3 = 9 pounds, 12 ounces
A1-3 = 9 pounds, 8 ounces

A3 Specs
Caliber: 308WIN / 243WIN Switch-barrel
Stock: McM A3 Edge-fill stock w/ Limbsaver pad
Action: Surgeon, Integral-rail/recoil lug model
Firing Pin: Speedlock Lightweight (must modify pin as per above)
Barrel: 22" Light Palma Krieger
Trigger: CG Jackson two-stage
Bottom Metal: Remington Aluminum BDL
Scope Rings: Badger Alloy
Scope: Nightforce 2.5-10x24
Sling: TIS Slip Cuff (8 oz....heavy but worth it for sling shooting)
A3 NOTES: I had this same rifle with standard A3 stock and MTU contour....saved 4 lbs by using Lgt Palma contour and Edge-fill stock.

A1-3 Specs
Caliber: 308WIN / 243WIN Switch-barrel
Stock: McM A1-3 Edge-fill stock w/ Limbsaver pad
Action: Surgeon RSR, remington clone model
Scope rail: Surgeon Alloy (nice rail!)
Recoil lug: Surgeon 1/4"
Firing Pin: Speedlock Lightweight (must modify pin as per above)
Barrel: 22" Light Palma Krieger
Trigger: CG Jackson two-stage
Bottom Metal: Remington Aluminum BDL
Scope Rings: Seekins Alloy
Scope: Nightforce 2.5-10 x 32
Sling: TIS Slip Cuff (8 oz....heavy but worth it for sling shooting)
 
#66
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

IMHO, the whole debate between a Heavy vs light rifle is all about what application you intend to use it for and what your shooting style is. There are obvious needs/uses for both - so as always it depends....

On a related note, did anyone watch the PBS Frontline special this past week called "Obama's War". Aside from the title, it was a really interesting look at Afghanistan and the factors that are being weighed in making the decision to surge or not. Anyway, there is an interesting clip of a firefight that an embedded reporter recorded between a Marine Company and the Taliban. There is a brief clip of a Marine Sniper with a Bolt gun taking shots from a berm and to me - it looks like a short barreled Rem 700 like a 20" SPS Tactical. Maybe its just the angle of the camera, but it looks like a short barrel instead of the usual M24 or M40 profile. Can any of you professional shooters ID this gun?

If you don't want to watch the whole thing (I recommend you do, its interesting), Click on the video and jump ahead on the time bar to Time stamp 32:50 and let it count down to about 32:30 or so to see the brief clip of the sniper.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1295117818
 
#68
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bignada</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is a rifle built to that weight really tactical much less field-ready? Maybe if you are deploying from some Holiday Rambler motorhome and have some bikini clad babe roll your rifle over to the line using a modified golfbag stroller; but if you are carrying other gear?
</div></div>

Snap! Lindy, you been called out!
 
#69
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO, the whole debate between a Heavy vs light rifle is all about what application you intend to use it for and what your shooting style is. There are obvious needs/uses for both - so as always it depends....

On a related note, did anyone watch the PBS Frontline special this past week called "Obama's War". Aside from the title, it was a really interesting look at Afghanistan and the factors that are being weighed in making the decision to surge or not. Anyway, there is an interesting clip of a firefight that an embedded reporter recorded between a Marine Company and the Taliban. There is a brief clip of a Marine Sniper with a Bolt gun taking shots from a berm and to me - it looks like a short barreled Rem 700 like a 20" SPS Tactical. Maybe its just the angle of the camera, but it looks like a short barrel instead of the usual M24 or M40 profile. Can any of you professional shooters ID this gun?

If you don't want to watch the whole thing (I recommend you do, its interesting), Click on the video and jump ahead on the time bar to Time stamp 32:50 and let it count down to about 32:30 or so to see the brief clip of the sniper.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1295117818 </div></div>


http://www.deathfromafar.com/htm/08_iba_weaponsys_xm3.shtml I believe this is what he had.
 
#70
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO, the whole debate between a Heavy vs light rifle is all about what application you intend to use it for and what your shooting style is. There are obvious needs/uses for both - so as always it depends....

On a related note, did anyone watch the PBS Frontline special this past week called "Obama's War". Aside from the title, it was a really interesting look at Afghanistan and the factors that are being weighed in making the decision to surge or not. Anyway, there is an interesting clip of a firefight that an embedded reporter recorded between a Marine Company and the Taliban. There is a brief clip of a Marine Sniper with a Bolt gun taking shots from a berm and to me - it looks like a short barreled Rem 700 like a 20" SPS Tactical. Maybe its just the angle of the camera, but it looks like a short barrel instead of the usual M24 or M40 profile. Can any of you professional shooters ID this gun?

If you don't want to watch the whole thing (I recommend you do, its interesting), Click on the video and jump ahead on the time bar to Time stamp 32:50 and let it count down to about 32:30 or so to see the brief clip of the sniper.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1295117818 </div></div>


http://www.deathfromafar.com/htm/08_iba_weaponsys_xm3.shtml I believe this is what he had. </div></div>
You sir, I believe, are correct. Thanks, I was wondering what short-barreled sniper rifle was being used these days. I wondered if the kid just brought his own or modified an issue weapon.
 
#71
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Saw the current Gun Of The Week over at 6mmBR.com today.

Worth a visit over there to see this guy's 10lb McMillan A3 stocked, Surgeon, Krieger, Badger Ord detachable mag, and Leupold 6.5-20x rifle in .284Win.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek095.html

Go here for the RL-17 article:
http://www.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html


The guy's goal was to build a Dual-Duty rifle for F-class comps and also hunting. Read the article on the RL-17 powder in .284 Win over there also. Think I would've gone Long Action to get the most out of the heaviest bullets. RL-17 was not yet released when this guy ordered-up his rifle.

RL 17 and the .284win give you all there is to get... Maybe a .338/284 or .375/284 if you want to shoot the heaviest and highest BC bullets.

The .284win firing 180gr Berger VLD with .659 Ballistic Coefficient at 2950 to 3000fps has to be attention grabbing....

Good reason NOT to build short-action rifles, to get all the seating potential you can. Might even be able to "improve" the .284win case or blow it out a few more thousandths. Never know what can be gained til you try...
 
#72
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I finally have my two custom rifles back after starting this process a year ago: weights and components shown below. These two rifles are super-accurate rigs that can be used for back-country humping and hunting and practical/tactical comps.

INTERESTING TID-BITS LEARNED:

The difference in weight between the Surgeon RSR action(w/ rail & recoil lug) and the integral-rail Surgeon is only 2 ounces....2 stinking ounces. I would have used the integral rail model for both rifles if I had known this. The only thing you are getting with the RSR is a small price reduction and an inferior action. I say inferior meaning the integral rail & recoil lug of the other model make it much better.

I forgot how much a BDL floorplate sucks in the reliability department. I chose the aluminum floorplate to save a few ounces. But, the crappy "spring" and side-to-side feeding make this bottom metal too unreliable. I decided it is worth a few extra ounces to get the uber-reliable HS-Precision detachable with center-feed mags. I'm not a fan of the AICS style assemblies because of how the magazine protrudes from the bottom of the stock.


Weight does NOT determine how accurate your gun is. Some of the best shooters win multiple competitions with one light-weight rifle. In other words they enter heavy gun comps with their light gun and win it. Heavy is great for taming recoil, long-strings of fire, and in bench-rest & belly benchrest(F-class). None of that applies for these rifles.

The sling weighs 1/2 pound. Take that out and the weights shown below are pretty damned good.

Surgeon does NOT use a standard firing pin because their bolt-face is slightly thicker. A standard pin must be turned down a bit for it to function.

Here are my rig weights.....got tacticool in a lightweight package:

WEIGHTS (with Scope & Sling)
A3 = 9 pounds, 12 ounces
A1-3 = 9 pounds, 8 ounces

A3 Specs
Caliber: 308WIN / 243WIN Switch-barrel
Stock: McM A3 Edge-fill stock w/ Limbsaver pad
Action: Surgeon, Integral-rail/recoil lug model
Firing Pin: Speedlock Lightweight (must modify pin as per above)
Barrel: 22" Light Palma Krieger
Trigger: CG Jackson two-stage
Bottom Metal: Remington Aluminum BDL
Scope Rings: Badger Alloy
Scope: Nightforce 2.5-10x24
Sling: TIS Slip Cuff (8 oz....heavy but worth it for sling shooting)
A3 NOTES: I had this same rifle with standard A3 stock and MTU contour....saved 4 lbs by using Lgt Palma contour and Edge-fill stock.

A1-3 Specs
Caliber: 308WIN / 243WIN Switch-barrel
Stock: McM A1-3 Edge-fill stock w/ Limbsaver pad
Action: Surgeon RSR, remington clone model
Scope rail: Surgeon Alloy (nice rail!)
Recoil lug: Surgeon 1/4"
Firing Pin: Speedlock Lightweight (must modify pin as per above)
Barrel: 22" Light Palma Krieger
Trigger: CG Jackson two-stage
Bottom Metal: Remington Aluminum BDL
Scope Rings: Seekins Alloy
Scope: Nightforce 2.5-10 x 32
Sling: TIS Slip Cuff (8 oz....heavy but worth it for sling shooting)
</div></div>

How about some pics please. I'm gathering parts currently for a similar build.
 
#73
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sjm229</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Scooter-PIE said:
How about some pics please. I'm gathering parts currently for a similar build. </div></div>

I second that request, sound like very well thought out practical precision rifles.
Thanks
Rath
Click to expand...
 
#74
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

//////////////Apples and Oranges//////////////////////

Let me start by saying I havent been in the sandbox (as a soldier), I dont know anything about it except what I see on the news, so I'm talking history. I was infantry when infantry walked.

DEPENDS. Counter Sniping, as in police work it dosnt really matter. I carried (or my police car carried a M-700 var, bull barrel. Shot good, only needed the ammo that I stuffed in the mag. (or chamber). I didnt care what it weighed.

In Vietnam, Republic Of, that gun would have sucked. If given a choice (as a sniper, the missons of snipers in that AO), I would have picked a Win Featherweight w/fixed 6 compact glass(I'll leave caliber out of the conversation). I have a couple featherweights that have outstanding accuracy for 5 rounds or so, in sniping, you use more then that, you have other problems besides rifle weight. The way we did it, (REMEMBER, I'M TALKING HISTORY, NOT WHAT'S DONE TODAY, I'M NOT THERE), We carried 5 days rations, 5 cantens, claymore, LAW, trip flairs,smoke and frags, extra 1-200 round belts of 60 ammo, batterys for prc 25 (now they call them prc77s) extra plasma for the medics, 460 rounds of 5.56. Puncho & Liner, ever dry sock we cound get our hands on. Plus personal items. Granted a sniping misson wouldn't require some of the above but you need most of it. A featherweight would be handy.

Ok I'm not in the game anymore. I still target shoot and hunt. I'm not concerned about wieght if I can back the truck up to the 1000 yard line and unload my 16 lbs Model 70 300 WM. But I sure wouldnt hunt with it. Even hunting there is a differance. You'd be supprised the crap I carry when I'm hunting on horse back. But if I plan on getting away from my horse you bet I'm carrying my Featherweights. Again, even in hunting if you need more then 5 rounds you have more problems then the weight of the rifle.

Even shooting ARs there is a differance. My White Oak service rifle (with weighted stock) weighs 13 lbs. The AR I shoot in Multi Gun is a light weight A1 (sp-1).

Call me a wimp if you wish. DONT CARE, I shoot for pleasure now, and a heavy rifle kicking my butt over some 8500 ft mountain, istn pleasure. If I'm punching paper or steel, I don't really care about they weight since I can back my truck up to the firing line. Shoot I even carry some sort of shade when I go PD hunting.
 
#75
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sjm229</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Scooter-PIE said:
How about some pics please. I'm gathering parts currently for a similar build. </div></div>

I second that request, sound like very well thought out practical precision rifles.
Thanks
Rath </div></div>
Will do, but you need to give me a week. I'm sending both bolts back to Surgeon. They had a bad run and the firing pin drags badly on both. On the plus side, I lubed them up and that worked good enough for a down elk.
smile.gif
Click to expand...
 
#76
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Thanks Scooter, looking forward to pics

That's a bit concerning regarding Surgeon, my Surgeon Action build is arriving next week, hopefully your problem is very isolated...

Rath
 
#78
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Scooter, looking forward to pics

That's a bit concerning regarding Surgeon, my Surgeon Action build is arriving next week, hopefully your problem is very isolated...

Rath </div></div>

It was a bit frustrating to be honest. I thought the problem was with the trigger...took a while to figure it out. I was kind of pissed at my gunsmith for not identifying this. The good news is the Surgeon folks are straight up honest: admitted they had a bad run of bolts around April, provided a UPS account to ship with and promised a 1-day turn-around. I have no complaints. Shit happens, it's how the company responds that makes or breaks them.
 
#79
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Well being based in Australia if I did end up with a faulty Action I would be fu$#ed,

Importing actions is a mountain of paperwork so it's not as simple as boxing it up and taking it to the post office!

What exactly was the problem, how did you identify it and what did it "feel" like.

Thanks again,
Cheers,
Rath
 
#80
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Good topic. I noticed my first GAP build was quite a bit
of a heavy lady (hey, they need love too) in the AICS with a 26
in #7 and a USO etc. Perfect prone. When I start doing postional shooting with it, standing, kneeling, etc my mind changed about
what I wanted. My favorite barrel profile now is the medium palma but chopped to 26 or less. That taper does not have a tendency to heat string. The palma shooters shoot 15-25 rounds
with sighters as fast as the targets can be pulled. It's a great
all-around contour for volume shooting, the barrel is lighter
than a 7 with fluting, so its cheaper. My new custom is a 7 WSM
throated for Berger 180s at 2.900 COL with a 26 in Broughton 5c
medium palma taper barrel. Heavy enough, but not the beast if I
take offhand shots.
 
#81
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well being based in Australia if I did end up with a faulty Action I would be fu$#ed,

Importing actions is a mountain of paperwork so it's not as simple as boxing it up and taking it to the post office!

What exactly was the problem, how did you identify it and what did it "feel" like.

Thanks again,
Cheers,
Rath </div></div>
They had a bad run of bolts that caused the firing pin to rub badly against the inner wall of the bolt....to the point where the firing pin would not release after pulling the trigger. After a bit if frustration where I falsely blamed the trigger, I figured out the problem. I figured it out when removing the firing pin and it was in there super tight...pretty obvious. Was a bit frustrated with my gunsmith because he should have figured this out when installing the firing pin and feeling how much it rubbed.

A lot of grease made it work well enough to hunt with and I just sent the bolts back. Stephen said they'd probably just replace the bolts.

I am happy they are fixing the problem, but agree there never should have been one. You can have the best CNC machines in the world, but you still have to measure tolerances and keep them tuned.
 
#83
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

For those concerned with wieght, there has been a solution for lots of years.

The gun shoulders quickly, though make sure you dont snag your suspenders with the lever when cycling the action.

You can carry thousands of rounds of ammo in your rainbow fanny pack, and do it comfortably. You then save room in your day pack for make up and lip gloss, and all these other items that I have seen in my wifes bathroom.

To each his own I guess.

21JRMKM3Q1L._SL500_AA280_.jpg
 
#89
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

I always favored the daisy pump guns for accuracy...

Put a 26.5" shilen SS match barrel in target contour, fluted, with ss holland QD brake into an H-S Tactical with adj LOP and Karsten riser and was still under 10lbs .308 Lazzeroni Patriot Not like your gonna bolt flick 5 rds in on target in microseconds, but maybe with the brake installed you could...

With the right barrel and stock; plus tailored ammo you will get usable precision. That 1.25" straight cylinder barrel may be great for putting 35rds downrange in a hurry; but who will do that in battle, w/o moving, and expect to survive?

Hell, if you don't expect to survive, you can hump that 25lb "precision .308" with all the gizmos.

If you shoot n scoot, won't your barrel cool down anyway; if it ever indeed heated up at all?
Comes down to that, don't it? Everywhere except the practice line. You shoot once maybe twice and MOVE>>> How much damn heat does 2 rds impart? NONE!

How much barrel length you need? Maybe 20-22"
How much do you require that scope that enables you to see the mole discoloration on a targets face at 800yds. Who wants to see anything they're gonna kill/destroy that well anyway?

All this heavy rifle stuff is BS for the target range with about -0- real world applicability. Maybe if you're shooting a Lapua or Chey-Tac, but those are such specialty items.

Precision riflery will win wars. But no civilian LEO sniper will shoot past 200yds, and there are very few presentations at 800yds or more in battle; at least not enough, to overbuild the rifle so much to enable that 1:100 shot.
 
#90
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Am I wrong in assuming that most of us unpack a rifle for a match or a range session shoot it, and then pack it back into our F-150's and Corollas? I've got 2 .308's that weigh more than 14 lbs. I wish they weighed less when people mention carbon-fiber and titanium, but I'm not sure I would notice the difference given I don't hunt with them, and don't pack them around other then every month for a match.

Guys, lets face it most of us aren't Marine Corp Snipers. We're tactical marksmen who shoot in the occasional match and range session. We're not humping a rifle over the continental divide in hopes of catching a clear shot of Hitler from over a mile so we can make the history channel.

I would love my rifles to weigh less, but not at the sacrifice of accuracy or ease of shooting.
 
#91
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Interesting........do you think our forefathers would think we are wimps and whiners?

Some of them packed muskets, long rifles, probably some fairly heavy weapons in their day?

If you need it, you should pack it.
 
#92
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: long-shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I wrong in assuming that most of us unpack a rifle for a match or a range session shoot it, and then pack it back into our F-150's and Corollas? I've got 2 .308's that weigh more than 14 lbs. I wish they weighed less when people mention carbon-fiber and titanium, but I'm not sure I would notice the difference given I don't hunt with them, and don't pack them around other then every month for a match.

Guys, lets face it most of us aren't Marine Corp Snipers. We're tactical marksmen who shoot in the occasional match and range session. We're not humping a rifle over the continental divide in hopes of catching a clear shot of Hitler from over a mile so we can make the history channel.

I would love my rifles to weigh less, but not at the sacrifice of accuracy or ease of shooting. </div></div>




+1
 
#93
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

This is what I think about it, suck it up and pack the rifle. I am NOT a marine corp scout sniper, but I do hunt and walk sometimes 10+ miles in a day hunting(with a 20-30lb pack). When I spend 2-4 grand on a rifle I want what I want, I don't think 17lb on a rifle is that bad could be worse like a Cheytac M200, Barrett 82A1.
 
#94
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Most of the people I know that bitch about 14lb+ guns are the ones that drive within a couple of hundred yards of where they hunt. I pack my 26in bbl AICS all over creation. If you cant carry 14+ lbs, you shouldent be hunting IMHO. It says to me you cant deal with cleaning, loading or packing the game out if you killed something anyway.
Remember, somewhere in the world a solider is climbing a mountain in less than ideal conditions with a real heavy gun.
The only exception to this IMHO is going to hunt high altitudes when you live close to sea level. That is tough enough.
This is not directed at anyone here, but I'm tired of hearing this crap from our deer camp and other hunters I hunt with.
 
#95
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

Thats totally the point I am trying to get across, over Thanksgiving my father was hunting with his friend. His friend has cheap 10x42 Cabelas brand Binoculars, my dad has Swarovski 15x56. My dads buddy said that his 10x42's were too heavy and he will have to get something different. It gets better, after that he looks though my dads (they were on a tripod) and says he would have to get a pair. It was just a really stupid thing to say IMHO, when your to cheap to buy leupold's your not going to drop 2+ grand on Swarovski 15x56's but thats a different story. I looked it up the Cabelas Binoculars weigh 21.2 oz the Swarovski's weigh 43.7 oz. IMO if the 21 oz binos are to heavy for you theres no reason to get 43 oz ones, right???? totally off topic but kinda the same thing.
 
#96
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CAT5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most of the people I know that bitch about 14lb+ guns are the ones that drive within a couple of hundred yards of where they hunt. I pack my 26in bbl AICS all over creation. If you cant carry 14+ lbs, you shouldent be hunting IMHO. It says to me you cant deal with cleaning, loading or packing the game out if you killed something anyway.
Remember, somewhere in the world a solider is climbing a mountain in less than ideal conditions with a real heavy gun.
The only exception to this IMHO is going to hunt high altitudes when you live close to sea level. That is tough enough.
This is not directed at anyone here, but I'm tired of hearing this crap from our deer camp and other hunters I hunt with.

</div></div>

These are most likely the same people that keep driving around in the parking lot in front of a store waiting for someone to leave so that they do not have to walk any farther than they have to.

If your rifle is too damn heavy then buy a sling.
 
#98
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

If I had to drag a bolt rifle around to make a single shot or perhaps even 10 shots in rapid succession (and had a choice in the matter) it would be a #3 contour chopped off at about 20 - 22" (18" if a can was an option). The stock would be a Mac with a light fill and lead in the a$$ end. The scope would certainly be a bit heavy as I am partial to USO's
laugh.gif


I believe this would be a lite handy rifle that fit nicely in say an Eberleigh type pack. In general, my walking around gun would be an 18" AR of some flavor to handle any comers from 0 to 400 ish. Beyond that I have time to unlimber the bolt gun.

I have not yet created such a beast as I still drag around a 26" MTU contour 30-06 in a Sniper Fill Mac A-5, a Stock 308 Winny HBV in a Sniper Fill A-5 and a 24" Armalite AR-10. Then again I am not hunting humans anymore so a match gun is a different beast with different expectations.

That being said if I could choose only one rife to cover comps and business it would be the Desert Tactical w/ various barrel combination's.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#99
Re: Todays Rifles are to Heavy and Bulky

I refuse to let fat chicks ride on my hips all night.

I know a lot of you guys think I just need to get to Gold's Gym. Well fine, I'm willing to admit you can handle fat chicks better than me.

You're probably also going to tell me that fat chicks can take twice, maybe three times, the pounding of skinny chicks before they give out.

Fine. You're the expert on fat chicks, not me. I'm not going to argue.

Maybe if I had to carry fat chicks around for a living I might agree. But for me, skinny chicks are all I need.

And frankly, I think your preference stems from fat chicks being so much easier to use.

Sure, skinny chicks are usually higher maintenance, but I don't need my chick to function in swamps and the mud. So higher maintenance is not a problem I worry about. If you like using a chick in the mud, then a fat chick may be right for you.

And skinny chicks bending when they get hot? That's not a fault, it's a feature!

YMMV.
 
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