Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

[coues7]

In the new Magpul Art of the Precision rifle, Todd is recommending that you hold your knuckles turned down and only touch the rifle with your trigger finger and knuckles.....anyone got some close up pictures of what he's talking about? From what I can see it seems awful uncomfortable.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

would have to see what you are talking about...???

 

[igoswoop]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I think you misinterpreted his explanation of his preferred grip for certain stocks.

The technique I am assuming you're referring to works well on bolt guns with an upright grip like a Manners T3/4 or a McM Bros A5.

Basically you build your firing hand position along the centerline of the front of the grip with the tips of your fingers touching the grip as if you were fretting a guitar.

As with any grip intended for precision work, you should do your best to achieve a 90 degree bend at the first knuckle of your trigger finger (or second, depending on which end of your finger you want to start counting from) so you can apply pressure straight back.

The thumb is a matter of personal preference if you can train yourself to mitigate the sympathetic reflex of it's movement when wrapping it around a grip or through a thumbhole stock. Todd seemed to prefer keeping the thumb on the same side as your trigger finger for the "guitar fret" grip.

Hope this helps.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coues7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the new Magpul Art of the Precision rifle, Todd is recommending that you hold your knuckles turned down and only touch the rifle with your trigger finger and knuckles.....anyone got some close up pictures of what he's talking about? From what I can see it seems awful uncomfortable. </div></div>I don't remember anything about knuckles

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Really he is only relating about 20% of the technique and the act of Floating the thumb is useful to some and not some much for others. Especially with a 300WM... it's almost recoil dependent.

This technique excels when you master recoil management. If you don't have that down the rifle will exploit the weakest link which becomes the firing hand because he is not explaining about supporting the rifle.

The firing hand has 2 purposes, 1. To Press the Trigger without disturbing the lay of the sights, and 2. To Hold and Support the rifle during recoil... if you fail to mention both acts, you compromise one of them. recoil takes the path of least resistance which is clearly demonstrated in the video is you pay attention.

In the Online Training Jacob goes into huge detail in the lesson entitled Trigger School, as much time as Todd spends on the Horus Software, He should have been talking about the trigger alone because you can fill that much space with it.

80% - 40% - 20% you're looking at the 20%.

 

[KnoxCop]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

This is the grip that Todd Hodnett mentions in the Magpul videos, I personally did not find the grip that effective. But to each his own, and many people believe that he knows what he is talking about.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Some apply pressure with just their middle finger and ring finger to keep from over gripping the stock. I think the idea is to have consistent grip pressure.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I use the grip that he's talking about. It was shown to me in a training session about a year ago when I was shooting AICS's and A5's. It was odd at first, but I stuck with it and it's worked very very well for me with both recoil management and accuracy. I'd love to wrap my hand around the pistol grip/thumbhole on my stocks, but Im way more accurate in shooting, groups or distance, by using the grip described above. The full grip feels so much better, but the finger grip works alot better for me.

 

[Graham]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KnoxCop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is the grip that Todd Hodnett mentions in the Magpul videos, I personally did not find the grip that effective. But to each his own, and many people believe that he knows what he is talking about. </div></div>That does not look to me like a correct grip. Where did that pic come from?

 

[redirt78]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Not sure where the pic came from but looks like that's Hodnett's beard, or maybe an impostor haha. "Correct" or not, that is the grip they're talking about.

 

[Graham]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

If so, then in my opinion using the fingertips is potentially a bad idea.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

The way its explained is kind of like a grip one might use when shooting archery bows. He doesn't want the shooter to impart torque on the gun. He says the more pressure you have pulling/twisting/gripping the gun the more it is exerted negatively during the time the bullet is traveling down the barrel resulting in inconsistent flight. He also does not recommend it for all guns saying that some AR type rifles that may have slop between the upper/lower need to be torqued or gripped more thus eliminating some of the slop. You want the grip to be repeatable though.

He mentions that the fingertip method should only be used to apply enough pressure to pull the gun (straight back) into your shoulder consistently.

He also says that you shouldn't (ideally) have to apply any kind of torque or pressure to your rifle to get the crosshairs on your target and that he doesn't like to mash his cheek to the stock but to just rest your cheek/head on it as if you were going to sleep.

That's the way I took it, I might not have worded it just right but I hope that all makes sense.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

This is truly comical, the position on the video is completely ineffective because it is being explained wrong. That is a screen shot from the Magpul Video...

Because a video came out last month it's this new voodoo, meanwhile, the credit goes to Rifles Only for this grip, except the right way, not half way.

The Online Training posted "trigger school" in August of 2009... here is the screen shot from that...

This method was being used at RO for years... and guess who took a class there ?

You have to support the rifle with the firing hand, in the Magpul video, the rifle is not being supported properly and gets away from the shooter on more than one occasion. Clearly there is an issue with the trigger control and it is not addressed. Not rocket, but in fact easy to see... Done correctly the rifle is supported and floating the thumb is only an option, not a rule. The goal of that position is to use the mechanics of the 90 degree trigger finger, and to support the rifle during recoil. That was not achieved in the video as demonstrated on more than one shot... and when a question of "cant" was raised on a missed shot it was actually do to poor trigger control.

If you are gonna give credit to something it should be to the person who perfected the grip, not someone's idea of a weak imitation.

The way to eliminate the sympathetic squeeze is to rotate the hand to achieve the 90 and then to use a front to back pressure against the grip like the firing hand of a handgun. Trigger school, is only one part and is over 10 minutes long, it doesn't even address Follow Through which is another 10 minutes worth... 20 minutes on Trigger Control alone... not including other instances of discussion on it.

Getting wide spread attention doesn't automatically make it new.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Thanks LL.

The pics you linked don't work but I'll see them when I can get the online training membership.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This method was being used at RO for years... and guess who took a class there ? </div></div>Didn't know that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are gonna give credit to something it should be to the person who perfected the grip, not someone's idea of a weak imitation.
</div></div>I agree, I didn't know it wasn't his original idea for the grip. Who perfected it, Rifles Only or one person in particular?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

They show on here ?

They are not showing ... ?

 

[redirt78]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

They don't show for me but I'm on my gf's laptop using Google Chrome

 

[Barfly]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They show on here ?

They are not showing ... ? </div></div>

Not on Firefox either.

But I just finished watching the SH video again on trigger control and know what you are talking about. Good stuff.

 

[Barfly]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They show on here ?

They are not showing ... ? </div></div>

Not on Internet Explorer either, just checked.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

How about now, I edited the image format...

 

[Barfly]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

They are working now LL. Big difference from Todd's grip.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Yep, thanks man.

I tried clicking on the play button... twice haha.

 

[Megahoser]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Weird, I still can't see them...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Try refreshing the page.. it maybe cached in the old format

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

These I found go back to 2007 at RO...

The key is the 90 degree trigger finger,and the front to back pressure, as well guys were floating the thumb back then as well... but that was not always necessary.

 

[Megahoser]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Nope, refreshed, wiped cache...still nothing. I can't see the most recent ones you posted, either. I have tried two different browsers, as well.

Dunno what's going on...

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is truly comical, the position on the video is completely ineffective because it is being explained wrong. That is a screen shot from the Magpul Video...

Because a video came out last month it's this new voodoo, meanwhile, the credit goes to Rifles Only for this grip, except the right way, not half way.

The Online Training posted "trigger school" in August of 2009... here is the screen shot from that...

This method was being used at RO for years... and guess who took a class there ?

You have to support the rifle with the firing hand, in the Magpul video, the rifle is not being supported properly and gets away from the shooter on more than one occasion. Clearly there is an issue with the trigger control and it is not addressed. Not rocket, but in fact easy to see... Done correctly the rifle is supported and floating the thumb is only an option, not a rule. The goal of that position is to use the mechanics of the 90 degree trigger finger, and to support the rifle during recoil. That was not achieved in the video as demonstrated on more than one shot... and when a question of "cant" was raised on a missed shot it was actually do to poor trigger control.

If you are gonna give credit to something it should be to the person who perfected the grip, not someone's idea of a weak imitation.

The way to eliminate the sympathetic squeeze is to rotate the hand to achieve the 90 and then to use a front to back pressure against the grip like the firing hand of a handgun. Trigger school, is only one part and is over 10 minutes long, it doesn't even address Follow Through which is another 10 minutes worth... 20 minutes on Trigger Control alone... not including other instances of discussion on it.

Getting wide spread attention doesn't automatically make it new. </div></div>

The grip in this first pic is the style i was referring to. It was shown to me by a instructor that I'm sure has spent some time at RO. He wasn't claiming it as his own, just passing it along as instruction.

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I have the video and have been a member of SH Online Training almost since it began.

The video is "good" but lacking in all of the areas LL has mentioned above.

LOTS of talk about rifle cant

Not one mention of trigger finger placement or pulling straight back

I bought the DVD, primarily because I have the TreMoR2 reticle and heard that Todd covered it a bit in one of the DVDs.

Money is much better spent on the SH Online Training. You might think is cheaper for the DVD. It is... BUT...

I could not find Todd's email address, phone number, or a website where I could go and ask him questions if I needed to trouble shoot something.

You have that hear.

Only formal training I've ever had for shooting a rifle was in the Army.

 

[Woj8541]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I want to present this to clear up some possible misconceptions that people may have as they watch the Magpul Dyanmics Art of the Precision Rifle DVD. The points and views expressed in the majority of the training DVD are those of Todd Hodnett. Those views expressed do not necessarily translate into the Magpul Dynamics Precision Rifle course curriculum.

I can assure any future customers that they will receive comprehensive instruction on ALL aspects of rifle marksmanship while at a Magpul Dynamics Precision Rifle course. Our curriculum is very focused on the fundamentals and the finer points of marksmanship utilizing a crawl, walk, run philosophy.
Topics such as rifle set-up, shooting positions, trigger control, etc are covered in scrupulous detail. Understanding the elements of a proper shooting position are absolutely essential to achieving consistency.

Cheers

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I will second what is said above,

Caylen is good to go and Highly Recommend if you have the opportunity to train with him, don't hesitate.

I don't want what I am saying to be taken the wrong way here, nothing but the utmost respect for Caylen / Magpul and their program.

 

[earthquake]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Magpul is here in Denver right? Is the training local too? Good stuff here, thanks for sharing. I've never heard of this grip...learn something new every day.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I will third that!! Caylen is a wealth of knowledge and a highly experienced SCHOOL TRAINED military veteran that has trained 100's of military snipers.

His approach, style, and passion for long range shooting is second to none.

He is a guy that has been there and done that, he has the t-shirt, and bumper sticker to prove it.

That's why he is running the show at Magpul!!

 

[MD2Colo]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COfox</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Magpul is here in Denver right? Is the training local too? Good stuff here, thanks for sharing. I've never heard of this grip...learn something new every day. </div></div>

I remember seeing Boulder, CO on a lot of their stuff. Boulder, of all places. I love it! haha

Anyway, ya they probably have the corporate HQ there or something. Not sure, never seen a Magpul office in Boulder, Republic of

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I will say that... EVERYTHING that Todd taught he would always say, "this what I do". It's not the only way, it's what he's found works well.

I REALLY enjoyed Caylen's sections and would jump at a DVD made by him.

 

[Barfly]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will second what is said above,

Caylen is good to go and Highly Recommend if you have the opportunity to train with him, don't hesitate.

I don't want what I am saying to be taken the wrong way here, nothing but the utmost respect for Caylen / Magpul and their program.

</div></div>

I plan to set aside time this year for at least one Rifles Only course and a course with Caylen/Magpul. Can't wait.

 

[bribri]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

tag

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The way its explained is kind of like a grip one might use when shooting archery bows. He doesn't want the shooter to impart torque on the gun. He says the more pressure you have pulling/twisting/gripping the gun the more it is exerted negatively during the time the bullet is traveling down the barrel resulting in inconsistent flight. He also does not recommend it for all guns saying that some AR type rifles that may have slop between the upper/lower need to be torqued or gripped more thus eliminating some of the slop. You want the grip to be repeatable though.

He mentions that the fingertip method should only be used to apply enough pressure to pull the gun (straight back) into your shoulder consistently.

He also says that you shouldn't (ideally) have to apply any kind of torque or pressure to your rifle to get the crosshairs on your target and that he doesn't like to mash his cheek to the stock but to just rest your cheek/head on it as if you were going to sleep.

That's the way I took it, I might not have worded it just right but I hope that all makes sense. </div></div>

I will say one thing...archery has made me a better rifleman and has taught me how torque exponentially affects your shooting.

Also I didn't take from the video that TH was saying he invented any of the methods in the video, only that he invented whizwheels and tritium bubble levels. I took the video mostly for its entertainment value rather than "science". It was made to give newbies an idea, reinforce that fundamentals were important, and to get people interested. Nothing revolutionary there.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I practiced a fair amount with this grip over the weekend and during the week. With a little help from Bohem, I've found this grip to really make a difference.

However, this works only/mostly, if you are able to really control the recoil as LL has mentioned. When the recoil is controlled, the grip allows a very precise trigger pull if you are performing the 90-degree trigger finger bend. When you're not properly placed for recoil, the rifle might jump in your grip, you'll lose the stock and have to rebuild the position. Below is the illustation of this. 4 nice holes in the same vicinity, and then one in the neighbouring state... guess when I wasn't behind the rifle properly.... this was shooting 175gr Sierra's at dusk with no wind.

As an aside, I was testing out the lowlight qualities of the 3-12x56 Hensoldt and I have to say, I could easily resolve the target and the black lines even within the advanced stages of dusk. Very very impressive light capture.

 

[sosicmcise]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and bumper sticker to prove it.

</div></div>

Everyone knows that real tactical assassins don't have sniper bumper stickers and commonly drive girly cars. See below.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2ETruidd5lQ"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2ETruidd5lQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

The most proficient snipers I ever served with could grip a rifle any ol' way and shoot knots.

 

[fusiachi]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KnoxCop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is the grip that Todd Hodnett mentions in the Magpul videos, I personally did not find the grip that effective. But to each his own, and many people believe that he knows what he is talking about. </div></div>

That's not what was taught in the PR1 and PR2 classes I've attended recently. As others have noted we're talking about only a portion of what's involved in a proper grip.

I haven't seen anything in the video that hasn't been covered more comprehensively in either the SH online training or the live instruction in Magpul's PR classes. It appears to me to be something that was rushed to market before Magpul had a fully formed concept for the direction they wanted to take their PR program.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I use a very similar grip to what is being shown here. You can see it in some of the videos I posted when I am shooting prone supported or from a bench. The technique works very well when you can get straight behind the rifle and allow it to recoil straight back.

I use a totally different grip for offhand, barricades or just about any real world shooting where I need to actually control the rifle.

I also use a different grip with semi-auto rifles.

The main reason I started using the grip is it was impossible to get a proper trigger finger position with a hunting style stock. The pistol grip sweeps back at too great of an angle. Using my fingertips allows my hand to be in the same position no matter what style of stock I am shooting. I also thing it allows me to be quicker on the bolt.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a very similar grip to what is being shown here. You can see it in some of the videos I posted when I am shooting prone supported or from a bench. The technique works very well when you can get straight behind the rifle and allow it to recoil straight back.

I use a totally different grip for offhand, barricades or just about any real world shooting where I need to actually control the rifle.

I also use a different grip with semi-auto rifles.

The main reason I started using the grip is it was impossible to get a proper trigger finger position with a hunting style stock. The pistol grip sweeps back at too great of an angle. Using my fingertips allows my hand to be in the same position no matter what style of stock I am shooting. I also thing it allows me to be quicker on the bolt. </div></div>

What grip do you use for offhand shooting - if it's ok to ask.

Cheers

 

[Ultraman550]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

What kind of rail is that?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

MARS,

and not recommended they aren't all they appear.

 

[Ultraman550]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Good to know, thanks Lowlight.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What grip do you use for offhand shooting - if it's ok to ask.

Cheers
</div></div>

For offhand shooting I wrap my fingers and thumb around the grip more like you would grip a handgun. I am still engaging the trigger with the pad of my finger, but my wrisy may be at a different angle depending on the system.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

Thanks.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KnoxCop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... and many people believe that he knows what he is talking about. </div></div>

^^^ That

 

[Lofty]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KnoxCop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... and many people believe that he knows what he is talking about. </div></div>

^^^ That </div></div>

I've never met Todd. I've watched and read a lot of his stuff online. I also have watched Magpuls video from begining to end.

He seems like a humble guy and at no point have I ever seen him take sole credit for any of the techniques he teaches and I've never heard him say that his way is the only way.

As a civilian enthusiast, I consider myself lucky to have as many options as we do in the firearms training community.

 

[FRH]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

I use this grip myself, learned it in the Online Training here. My understanding of this grip is that it comes from building it from the trigger back. Pushing the fingers off from the centre line of the rifle grip is a necessity for most shooters in order to achieve the 90 degree hook with the trigger finger. In fact, I often wonder if a stock could be made with a short enough span from the rifle grip to the trigger that would allow a closed grip and still achieve the 90 degree hook. Could be interesting.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Todd Hodnett: Grip and Finger Hold for Long Range

The stock could be made, however it would only fit a narrow selection of folks. When we get into this we are basically talking about glove size. If you really want to fit your stock in this manner, grab some bondo and go to town.