Too Many AR Optic Options Out There...HELP.

[pleasedelete]

Hello Gents.
I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Just looking to kick a few ideas around and get a little feedback if you all wouldn't mind.
I'm setting up a couple new rifles and with all the optic options out there, I'm overwhelmed and feel like a dog chasing it's tail.
I figured I should just bust my posting cherry and ask a few questions before I give myself an ulcer.
The one rifle setup I keep flip floppng on is on my 5.56 16" LWRCI. Here's the deal, I just want a GP rifle. Truck gun/ranch rifle, hunting, and with the way things are going, possibly a Patriot rifle or one that will defend my farm. I'm about an hour from a major metro area and I already have a bullet hole in my F-350 from some a-hole who didn't like my Trump bumpersticker and my neighbor has had cattle shot for the same reason. It's not zombie fantasies any longer. Sh_t is getting real. Fast.
I don't go to ranges and I don't care about benchrest rifle setups. I want a setup I can hump with, hunt with, and put up a good fight with. I don't like a heavy rifle at all. I picked up a Razor and it felt like a brick. Where my farm is at, 500 yards is often max distance because of the trees. I'm thinking 6x would be more than adequate for my needs, but 4x ACOGS would be fine too. There are fields where you can stretch it out, but that's why God created 6.5 Creedmoors and .300 mags. Overall we have more trees than grass.
There's a Benelli next to my bed and a Beretta on the nightstand so not building a home defense gun.
I've been all over the place on this rifle....
Started with TA31 ACOG idea because they just freaking get the job done, at first thinking horseshoe and then thinking crosshairs paired with an offset RMR.
Then thought LED ACOG, then back to old school ACOG.
Then I started looking at LPVOs as a possibility because it's 2021 and surely there is something better than the ACOG I first used almost twenty years ago... Credo 1x6 red SFP looked good, then thought Credo HX for a brighter dot. Then saw a deal on a 1x5 Steiner. Then a nice Leupold... Dang.
There's a lot more on the market since the last time I did this.
I shoot mostly M855 62gr. Green Tip and BDCs are fine with me on this type of rifle.
I'm really open to thoughts and ideas for this gun.
The only thing I am totally opposed to is Chinese glass. If we don't end up fighting them, I believe our boys will. Just say no to China.
Thanks guys. I appreciate any and all feedback.
God Bless America.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Primary Arms Platinum Series 1-8 FFP would fit your needs nicely.
Primary Arms PLx 1-8x24mm FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Raptor M2 5.56 / .308

Step up from there to the Vortex 1-10
Step up from there to $$$$$

I'd suggest you go check out Ilya's youtube channel as well

Dark Lord Of Optics

Most of what you will see here are some random (and not so random) thoughts on sporting optics of all sorts. I will also intersperse these with other gun rel...

www.youtube.com

 

[theLBC]

are you going to have binos or a spotter to see what you're shooting that far out?
maybe a mark 5hd 3.6-18x44 is an option that is small and light enough while still having more power if needed.
i heard those new prism scopes can be a great for good glass, wide fov and better eye relief, but they can be heavy.
just to make it even harder.

 

[Navy Gunner]

I prefer red dots for my general purpose ranch rifle (6.5 Grendel AR, 16”). Easy to get on target for hogs and other wildlife miscreants.

 

[pleasedelete]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

Don't need a Geissele. I have a good rifle, just looking at optics. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I guess I didn't explain well. 500 yards is as far as you can see 99% of the time because of terrain and vegetation. I would estimate 1% of the my shots would be 500yds. I guess I'm behind the curve these days but I can't see needing a spotter and a 3.6-18 for this. That's not that far... Under 500 yards, you shoot the bad guy and he falls down. That's the way it worked for me in the past. That's the way it still works with coyotes. ?

I don't want to pack around a 10x brick either. The Credos were at the top of my weight limits.

I'll rephrase. Looking at an ACOG w/ offset RMR or one of the lighter 1-?x LPVOs.

 

[nutation]

If you like the Bindon aiming concept, a 3x prism scope might suit you. The eye relief is much more forgiving than an ACOG. A lot of these are Chinese manufacture, though.

Leupold used to make a 1x prism scope, but the battery life sucked and it took an uncommon type of battery.

Primary Arms scopes are Chinese manufacture, which is too bad because they have really nice reticles. Trijicon actually licensed the Primary Arms ACSS reticle for the TA31 ACOG, so you might check that out if you haven't already.

LPVOs are all over the place in terms of specs. I like the Nightforce ATACR 1-8x24, which has an illuminated ring for 1x, with an unobtrusive Christmas tree reticle inside the ring for higher magnifications. It's expensive, though, $2800 retail. I scored one on Gunbroker for a little less, but I got lucky. It's also probably heavier than you prefer, 21 ounces.

Many LPVOs are second focal plane - it's tricky to get a decent reticle which works at all magnifications. The Leupold Mark 3HD 1.5-4x20 is significantly lighter than the ATACR at 13 ounces, and much more affordable at about $700, but you don't get true 1x, the reticle is pretty basic, and it's second focal plane. The really nice Leupold Mark 6 1-6x20 is .gov only.

There's also the red dot with magnifier option. Most of the magnifiers are 3x, but some are 6x. The magnifiers seem to weigh about the same as the red dots themselves, running maybe 16 ounces total for the combination. This setup also has the advantage of basically infinite battery life. On the other hand, it seems like the magnifier would tend to get hung up on stuff, but I've never tried it myself.

 

[nutation]

Another thing to consider is night vision compatibility, if you have NV. Your threat model *does* include NODs, so you may want to be able to run passive. Compatibility is easy with the right red dot, less so for LPVOs. I've briefly tried it with my ATACR, which has a true NV setting - it's workable but not ideal due to the eye relief. Keep in mind that continued exposure to an illuminated reticle (meaning a few minutes), even with a true night vision setting, can damage your tube; this is part of the reason clip-ons exist. But it's nice to have the option available in a pinch.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Primary Arms scopes are Chinese manufacture, which is too bad because they have really nice reticles. Trijicon actually licensed the Primary Arms ACSS reticle for the TA31 ACOG, so you might check that out if you haven't already.

Not quite correct.
The one I linked to (Platinum series) is made in Japan.

Basically they go like this:
Silver line = Chinese made, for cheapskates
Gold line = Philippines made for mid budgets
Platinum Line = Japanese Made for those willing to pay extra for quality.

 

[alamo5000]

Hello Gents.
I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Just looking to kick a few ideas around and get a little feedback if you all wouldn't mind.
I'm setting up a couple new rifles and with all the optic options out there, I'm overwhelmed and feel like a dog chasing it's tail.
I figured I should just bust my posting cherry and ask a few questions before I give myself an ulcer.
The one rifle setup I keep flip floppng on is on my 5.56 16" LWRCI. Here's the deal, I just want a GP rifle. Truck gun/ranch rifle, hunting, and with the way things are going, possibly a Patriot rifle or one that will defend my farm. I'm about an hour from a major metro area and I already have a bullet hole in my F-350 from some a-hole who didn't like my Trump bumpersticker and my neighbor has had cattle shot for the same reason. It's not zombie fantasies any longer. Sh_t is getting real. Fast.
I don't go to ranges and I don't care about benchrest rifle setups. I want a setup I can hump with, hunt with, and put up a good fight with. I don't like a heavy rifle at all. I picked up a Razor and it felt like a brick. Where my farm is at, 500 yards is often max distance because of the trees. I'm thinking 6x would be more than adequate for my needs, but 4x ACOGS would be fine too. There are fields where you can stretch it out, but that's why God created 6.5 Creedmoors and .300 mags. Overall we have more trees than grass.
There's a Benelli next to my bed and a Beretta on the nightstand so not building a home defense gun.
I've been all over the place on this rifle....
Started with TA31 ACOG idea because they just freaking get the job done, at first thinking horseshoe and then thinking crosshairs paired with an offset RMR.
Then thought LED ACOG, then back to old school ACOG.
Then I started looking at LPVOs as a possibility because it's 2021 and surely there is something better than the ACOG I first used almost twenty years ago... Credo 1x6 red SFP looked good, then thought Credo HX for a brighter dot. Then saw a deal on a 1x5 Steiner. Then a nice Leupold... Dang.
There's a lot more on the market since the last time I did this.
I shoot mostly M855 62gr. Green Tip and BDCs are fine with me on this type of rifle.
I'm really open to thoughts and ideas for this gun.
The only thing I am totally opposed to is Chinese glass. If we don't end up fighting them, I believe our boys will. Just say no to China.
Thanks guys. I appreciate any and all feedback.
God Bless America.

Don't hurt your brain.

Different optics have different purposes. With a self defense purpose a 1x red dot is the best option.

Why? Because first off if you are shooting assholes at 300+ yards it's going to be a problem.

The focus is on speed. Get on target fast, shoot with both eyes open, and don't lose the guy in "the straw".

"The straw" is what I call it when you are looking down an optic with way too much zoom. If you are focused on the target and then Bambi takes a few steps you will be hunting around visually trying to find the target using an extremely narrow field of view. The solution is to back off the zoom and find the target again.

In other words too much zoom is bad, especially when you are talking about self defense.

If you want to go with a variable optic a 1-4 or 1-6 is a good option but definitely get a throw lever if you do that.

There are options out there where you are either on 1x or 4x but not in between. I have never used one of those.

The wide end of the optic in my opinion is more important for an SD rifle. Learning when and how to properly use zoom is a thing unto itself. Mostly it's for target identification in that type of situation.

Hopefully the ideas here help you think through the best options. Once you settle on the way you want to use it it will help figure out what kind of optic is best suited.

The brand name or specific optic only comes in down the road a bit.

 

[db2000]

Primary Arms Platinum Series 1-8 FFP would fit your needs nicely.
Primary Arms PLx 1-8x24mm FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Raptor M2 5.56 / .308

Step up from there to the Vortex 1-10
Step up from there to $$$$$

I'd suggest you go check out Ilya's youtube channel as well

Dark Lord Of Optics

Most of what you will see here are some random (and not so random) thoughts on sporting optics of all sorts. I will also intersperse these with other gun rel...

www.youtube.com

I second the Platinum but recommend the ACSS Griffin reticle. It’s fast as hell to get behind at 1x and you’ll have no problem out to 800 at 8x. Great illumination. The reticle sold me over the Vortex.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

Don't need a Geissele. I have a good rifle, just looking at optics. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I guess I didn't explain well. 500 yards is as far as you can see 99% of the time because of terrain and vegetation. I would estimate 1% of the my shots would be 500yds. I guess I'm behind the curve these days but I can't see needing a spotter and a 3.6-18 for this. That's not that far... Under 500 yards, you shoot the bad guy and he falls down. That's the way it worked for me in the past. That's the way it still works with coyotes. ?

I don't want to pack around a 10x brick either. The Credos were at the top of my weight limits.

I'll rephrase. Looking at an ACOG w/ offset RMR or one of the lighter 1-?x LPVOs.

I think your on the right track with the credo hx. If I was shopping for a lpvo that's what I'd get. I think it was europtic that has them for 800$. I have a 1-6 accupoint and its very nice but the credo is smaller, lighter, battery powered, and I would assume has similar glass.

 

[Spearjunkie]

I have a NF NX 8 on my 12.5” AR in a Badger C 1 mount a d plan to put a redot on a J-Arm on it as well. Your budget will dictate a lot of what you can and cannot do.

 

[SageRatSafaris]

For a farm truck rifle, I think LPVO is the obvious choice, particularly for coyotes.

These LPVOs are assembled in the USA:
* Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8x24
* Leupold Mark 6 1-6x20
* Leupold VX-6HD 1-6x24
* Leupold VX-5HD 1-5x24 CDS-ZL2
* Leupold VX-4.5HD Service Rifle 1-4.5x24
* NightForce ATACR 1-8x24 F1
* Sig Sauer Echo3 Thermal 1-6x23
* Sig Sauer Tango6T 1-6x24
* Steiner T5Xi 1-5x24
* Steiner P4Xi 1-4x24
* Trijicon VCOG 1-6x24
* Trijicon VCOG 1-8x28
* Trijicon AccuPoint 1-4x24
* Trijicon AccuPoint 1-6x24

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

Don't need a Geissele. I have a good rifle, just looking at optics. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I guess I didn't explain well. 500 yards is as far as you can see 99% of the time because of terrain and vegetation. I would estimate 1% of the my shots would be 500yds. I guess I'm behind the curve these days but I can't see needing a spotter and a 3.6-18 for this. That's not that far... Under 500 yards, you shoot the bad guy and he falls down. That's the way it worked for me in the past. That's the way it still works with coyotes. ?

I don't want to pack around a 10x brick either. The Credos were at the top of my weight limits.

I'll rephrase. Looking at an ACOG w/ offset RMR or one of the lighter 1-?x LPVOs.

Get an acog or acog like optic. It's the best all around optic. I absolutely love my vortex spitfire 4x. Illumination, and 4x will let you shoot anything in your range and it's light.

 

[308ftWIN]

Given your max distance and weight considerations, I'd vote P4XI or Accupoint 1-4 green triangle. P4XI doesn't do one thing exceptionally, but it does just about all things well and at a decent price.

Accupoint got my nod over the P4XI due to better 1x performance and a slightly faster eyebox. But the reticle doesn't do much beyond 350 yards and moving in and out of shade messes with the illumination like it might on an ACOG. I've actually considered going back to the P4XI.

 

[pleasedelete]

You guys are giving me a lot to consider. Thanks!

 

[pleasedelete]

Still kicking it around here. Some optics are WAY backordered... I'd like to get something mounted sooner than later so I have a chance to shoot this new rifle before Beto comes and takes it away.

Here is where I am. Deciding between the ACOG/RMR combo or a 1-6 LPVO
With good advice and inventories as there are, I've narrowed it down a bit.

First option.
TA31 ACOG LED Green Horseshoe TA51 mount $1060 and RMR2 with 3.25 red dot on a Trijicon 45 degree mount $514.
Wondering if a crosshair ACOG would pair better with the RMR than the horseshoe?
I've never used the LED version but I can see where it would overcome a few problems I encountered with the fiber optics. Downside higher cost and batteries, but neither are the end of the world. Adds a little weight too.
Looking at $1575 for this setup.

Second option.
Leupold VX6HD 1-6x24 Firedot Duplex $1298
Geissele AR15 Super Precision Standard Mounts $294
Mounts seem to be hard to find in stock too. Got tired of trying to find a better deal with a Badger or ? and went Geissele. I don't care about QD. The scope will live on that rifle.
$1592 w/ Geissele

Third option.
Steiner T5Xi 1-5x24 Rapid Dot 5.56 w/ Geissele or similar $1177 plus mount
$1471

Fourth option.
Trijicon Credo HX 1-6x24 SFP Red .223 holds and Geissele or similar. $802 plus mount
Sounds like the HX dot is the closest thing to daylight bright in the Credo line.
Credo HX or regular Credo with the segmented circle in red??
Seems like a lot of bang for the buck.
$1096

I guess the last option could be throw a green horseshoe TA-33 on there, deal with a little tunnel vision and be done with it.... Pretty good up close and at a couple hundred meters. Not as capable as above stuff I suppose, but bulletproof.

Any thoughts on this is very much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[beetroot]

If I were seriously worried about protecting myself and property I'd spend the coin on a Razor G2 1-6 or s G3 1-10.

I think the extra magnification of the 1-10 would be worth it if you really think you need to identify and engage threats at 500yards.

 

[AFGWS]

I've got a Kahles K16i on my 3 gun AR and it's a fine 1x6. It's SFP, but the field of view on 1x is huge. It's fairly light weight, and Kahles is an offshoot of Swarovski. I've shot it out to 500 and I'd have no problems using it on a truck gun.

 

[pleasedelete]

If I were seriously worried about protecting myself and property I'd spend the coin on a Razor G2 1-6 or s G3 1-10.

I think the extra magnification of the 1-10 would be worth it if you really think you need to identify and engage threats at 500yards.

The 1-6 Razor is that much better than the ones I listed? I’ve only checked out their 1-10. Pretty darn heavy... amazing glass though. 500 yards would be for a yote. Don’t want to explain to the states attorney about dropping some a-hole at 500 yards. Have no problem shooting 10 of them at 50 though if they’re on my place and shooting my cattle.

I’ve heard a lot of good things about Kahles. Tough build? I had a Swaro years ago but it was pretty delicate.

 

[Kill By Number]

I second the razor g2 1-6. Shot mine to 800 yards with .308 and does everything well for a small weight penalty. Mine lives on a 16” 556 SPR type build in an ADM mount. Daylight bright red dot on 1x which many others don’t do well and the glass / field of view / eyebox is amazing. Heard the Kahles is also nice with less weight and more coin.

 

[Randalls]

Being from the Show-Me-State, and most likely tromping around in the same neck of the woods, I would suggest a 1-6x or 1-8x for the majority of our terrain. I have an Accupoint 1-4x and when I start pushing 300-500 yards, I wish I had a little extra. If it was me buying today, I'd probably go NF NX8 1-8x. Run and gun up close with a little weight penalty vs a red dot, and dial up magnification as needed when the further hunting opportunities arise. I cant think of many situations it wouldn't cover.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

LPvO or the Trijicon with the offset rds.

I would personally do the LPVO in like a 1-8 with a rmr off to the side. High mag will work better for observation also.

 

[Jamesr1]

I would look at the elcan 1-6 also.

 

[Anderhammer52]

For what it's worth I had 2 led acog setups with top mount rmrs. Sold them for and picked up a viper 1-6 and never looked back. Then horse traded to vx6hd with their 3 gun reticle I think and that is the only scope I have ever regretted selling. 13oz I believe was the weight. Clean glass, good controls all around, just a great optic. Also had some time on a bunch of other mid to high teir lpvos. Vx6 was my favorite by far.

 

[pleasedelete]

I'll look at some of these optics in the morning and see what deals are to be found. Thanks again to all!

 

[pleasedelete]

The top mount RMR would not work for me either. I totally get what you mean. Way too awkward.

As the White House is fond of saying, I keep “circling back” to Trijicon.
Maybe it’s because I can get a discount.
Maybe it’s because I have used them with effect in the past.
Maybe it’s because this isn’t the sandbox and unless the American Civil War 2.0 gets rolling, I can’t shoot at tangos 500 yards away, so 8-10x is too much weight for nothing.
Maybe it’s because I have twin boys who can tear up an anvil with a feather and I know Trijicons can take a real beating.
IDK...
Regardless, that ACOG with an offset RMR keeps calling my name.
Also looking at their SFP LPVOs.
1-6 Credo HX but not sure which reticle
Or
1-6 Accupoint same deal just not sure on reticle.

Razor is just too heavy- might look at those for my AR-10.
With this not being a precision rifle, I just can’t see dropping two grand on an optic. Not for my use. Kahles looks really awesome, but I’ll save the money so I can buy more overpriced ammo for my boys.

Thanks again for the feedback everyone.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Keep in mind the weight and size difference on these. A few oz can really throw the balance of a rifle off. I have the accupoint 1-6 and I'd put in the larger size/weight class with the razor/viper 1-6s.

I also have a capped bushy smrs 1-6.5 that I'd put with the delta/credo, nx8. I think the difference is only like 4oz but on my light weight 20" AR it makes a surprising difference.

If you're getting an accupoint get the triangle. For other reticles there are better options. They're limited by the lack of exposed turret or bdc reticle but for snap shooting and hosing stuff down they are tough to beat. I have mine on a heavy AR with a big break and on 3x off the bipod its brutally effective in the 100-200yd range.

 

[pleasedelete]

I really appreciate all the feedback. I kind of feel like I wasted everyone's time because I pretty much ended up circling back to where I started.

LED ACOG with an offset RMR

I'm still deciding between green horseshoe and crosshairs. Alone horseshoe, but paired with an RMR, I'm thinking maybe crosshairs would be better for what I'm doing now.

I have to pick the RMR dot size too. Was going to do 3.25 but someone advised smaller. My gut says 3.25 though. I may end up having to go with what is in stock.

I really wanted to get on the 5.56 LPVO train, but for my application and distances and the fact that I've used them in the past, I just could not get away from going with something that has already proven itself to me. I know newer is always better, but I saw my buddy's ACOG get ran over by a freaking truck (tire on optic) and still hold it's zero. A lot of folks say they're dated, but ACOGs still get the job done. There are a lot of bad guys under the dirt who wish ACOGs didn't work so well...

 

[308ftWIN]

Are you going for 4x ACOG since I'm assuming that's what you're familiar with?

I've really been wanting to try the 3.5x LED since it offers expanded eye relief. I'm not a nose to CH fan.

If they made the 3.5x LED with a green ACSS reticle I'd buy one in an instant.

 

[pineoak]

Only thing I'll add is that magnification helps to ensure you're shooting at the right people for the right reason. 500 yards is a LONG way for a 5.56 and you definitely need to identify targets AND SURROUNDINGS before pulling that trigger at that range.

 

[pleasedelete]

Only thing I'll add is that magnification helps to ensure you're shooting at the right people for the right reason. 500 yards is a LONG way for a 5.56 and you definitely need to identify targets AND SURROUNDINGS before pulling that trigger at that range.

Are you going for 4x ACOG since I'm assuming that's what you're familiar with?

I've really been wanting to try the 3.5x LED since it offers expanded eye relief. I'm not a nose to CH fan.

If they made the 3.5x LED with a green ACSS reticle I'd buy one in an instant.

Yes. I really like that 3.5 too but going 4x. I'm leaving the BUIS off and pushing the optic back to give a little more room. People don't give weight enough consideration. It's okay for a Saturday at the range, but humping the hills in A-stan or even romping around a big farm, weight sucks.

Thanks Pineoak. As I said in two previous posts, I'm not shooting people at 500 yards with this ACOG. You can't do that in the States even if they do deserve it. But for the record, 500 yards is not a LONG way for a 5.56. It's more than capable at that distance.