Gunsmithing Tool and/or Die Maker

[roostercogburn98]

Ok, reaching out for some more help. Long story short, I came across a Winchester model 54. I believed it was a 22-250, had no clue about the rifle though. Took it home and started a thread in the vintage section. Over some time and several peoples excellent input, we narrowed the gun down as being made by a gunsmith named Hervey Lovell. He had a whole string of wildcat cartridges in the early part of the 20th century. For the life of me, I can’t figure out the caliber

The conclusion had come that it was not a 22-250, but a 22 varminter. I did a chamber cast and compared it to a 250 case. It is slightly different. I reached out to a shop and they said if it was a 22 varminter, a 250 case would chamber which it will not. I bought a book from the 40s that talked about the gentleman who put this rifle together. After reading some of the book, I changed my guess on caliber to an early version of a 22-250 with a different neck angle.

Is there anyone who might be able to do some more detailed measurements on a chamber cast so I can compare to Mr. Lovells other wildcats? The next big if is, if we identify this cartridge and there are no known dies for it, what is the possibility of having some made to relaod for this rifle. Thanks in advance, and apologies for the long winded start.

 

[Bigfatcock]

I’d check with CH4D.

 

[Makinchips208]

I can measure a chamber casting.
Also was a custom tool maker for nearly 20 years.
Located in Idaho.

 

[Ksracer]

I'd call up Widden or one of the other custom die makers.
They should be able to measure a chamber cast and draw a print. Since chamber casts shrink and grow over time, you may need to find something close and actually fire the rifle so they can use the fired brass to obtain final dimensions for the dies though.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I’d check with CH4D.

CH4D was my first email. They are the ones who said 22 varminter should chamber a 22-250. I sent a follow up email with more since the 250 didn’t chamber. They have not replied as of yet.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I'd call up Widden or one of the other custom die makers.
They should be able to measure a chamber cast and draw a print. Since chamber casts shrink and grow over time, you may need to find something close and actually fire the rifle so they can use the fired brass to obtain final dimensions for the dies though.

That would be a battle won for me if I could find something to chamber close. I have taken a 22-250 case and annealed the shit out of it, then closed the bolt to get a case formed.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I can measure a chamber casting.
Also was a custom tool maker for nearly 20 years.
Located in I

Pm sent

 

[Threadcutter308]

Rooster, I assume you've already considered (and perhaps dismissed) the idea of having the barrel set back and rechambered in a more up to date chambering ?

Might be less hassle in the long run. But, it would be changing it from it's original form, if that's what you are trying to preserve.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Rooster, I assume you've already considered (and perhaps dismissed) the idea of having the barrel set back and rechambered in a more up to date chambering ?

Might be less hassle in the long run. But, it would be changing it from it's original form, if that's what you are trying to preserve.

That has been discussed in the original thread. I don’t believe there is enough barrel to setback without losing the H.Lovell stamp. I’d love to have a nice heavy barrel 22-250

 

[Threadcutter308]

That has been discussed in the original thread. I don’t believe there is enough barrel to setback without losing the H.Lovell stamp. I’d love to have a nice heavy barrel 22-250 View attachment 7926255

Gotcha

 

[powdahound76]

@roostercogburn98

Might be able to pretty easy to rechamber and save that stamp if you chat and share pics with the right smith.

I know one here who I bet a nickel he could do it, its just the IF he wants the extra hassle it would be.

All depends on the dimensions of the chamber and FB already there.

Worth contacting if you run out of other options for sure

 

[Bigfatcock]

Call JES re-boring.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Gonna get the chamber cast measured to see the shoulder angle. If it turns out to be one of the early angle chambers cut by this fella, it might just stay that way forever cause he ain’t around anymore and he didn’t make very many of the early cuts from my understanding.

 

[n2ishun]

Can you make a case dimension drawing and post it ?
I have *some* old reloading books that I can go thru to check dimensions for ya.
Considered a 22-250 ackley improved yet ?
That case is pretty straight walled and would not chamber in a standard 22-250 barrel.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Can you make a case dimension drawing and post it ?
I have *some* old reloading books that I can go thru to check dimensions for ya.
Considered a 22-250 ackley improved yet ?
That case is pretty straight walled and would not chamber in a standard 22-250 barrel.

Will dig up rough dimensions I have currently and late will update with what I get from @JimmyJr as well. I don’t think the 22-250 AI was around when this gun was chambered. My best guess is that it was done in the 30s. I’ve bounced as many case measurements as I can from A few early Speer and Hornady reloading manuals as well as a book from the 40s that deals with most 22 variants around when this gun might have been built.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Will dig up rough dimensions I have currently and late will update with what I get from @JimmyJr as well. I don’t think the 22-250 AI was around when this gun was chambered. My best guess is that it was done in the 30s. I’ve bounced as many case measurements as I can from A few early Speer and Hornady reloading manuals as well as a book from the 40s that deals with most 22 variants around when this gun might have been built.

Have you pinged JGS or Dave Manson and asked them what they think it might be ?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Have you pinged JGS or Dave Manson and asked them what they think it might be ?

I have not yet, but good call. This easter egg hunt has been going for about two months off and on now. Slowly I will get around to as many people as I can, and hopefully it will come out of the woodwork.

 

[elwarpo]

If you can post up some dimensions I can try to look it up in my library. The handloaders manual of cartridge conversions is also a great source.

 

[roostercogburn98]

If you can post up some dimensions I can try to look it up in my library. The handloaders manual of cartridge conversions is also a great source.

Will get out to the shop and dig up what I took. Thank you for the offer

 

[iceng]

Barrel setback should be a turn or 3 at most. If a 22-250 WONT chamber, then just lick the chamber out with a reamer and bore scope it, ensure all surfaces are cut, and just roll with it.

 

[chevy_man]

Barrel setback should be a turn or 3 at most. If a 22-250 WONT chamber, then just lick the chamber out with a reamer and bore scope it, ensure all surfaces are cut, and just roll with it.

This is what I would do.

On one hand it's kinda historic, on the other hand it was made to shoot and barrels are consumable.

Or, option B: get a new barrel cut and chambered in 22-250 and set the old one aside.

 

[roostercogburn98]

This is what I would do.

On one hand it's kinda historic, on the other hand it was made to shoot and barrels are consumable.

Or, option B: get a new barrel cut and chambered in 22-250 and set the old one aside.

I’ve got a 30 cal bartlein blank laying around, if I rebarrel it will be a 308. I’d started digging up parts to to a model 70 build when I stumbled across this model 54.

 

[Geno C.]

Is the base to case mouth shorter or longer than a 22-250?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Is the base to case mouth shorter or longer than a 22-250?

It has to be longer. I can’t get the firing pin to ignite a primer in a crudely formed piece of brass made from 22-250. I can get the firing pin to indent the chamber cast though

 

[Geno C.]

Try a 22 creed case?

 

[iceng]

Plasticine. Try to take a cast of the chamber. Slowly does it so it doesnt stick. Bit of lube oil goes a long way.

Compare your cast to a case.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Try a 22 creed case?

Haven’t yet, will look the case specs up for that one though and see how close it is to the chamber cast.

 

[Ledzep]

If you call Hornady and ask for Ben Syring, he can most likely measure your cast and get a set of dies made, as well as form dies to convert another case if necessary.

 

[roostercogburn98]

If you call Hornady and ask for Ben Syring, he can most likely measure your cast and get a set of dies made, as well as form dies to convert another case if necessary.

Waiting on the cast to get back to me. I sent it to a guy to take some measurements. Posted them on my original model 54 thread but will post here as well.

 

[mtrmn]

This old Ideal reloading manual mentions a few Lovell cartridges. The 2R mentioned is a rimmed cartridge so that probably is NOT what you're looking for. The 22 calibers start on page 20 of 90 in the pdf. This is probably old news to you but at least I'm trying...

https://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IdealHandbook38.pdf

ETA: This one mentions stuff like the 22-3000 Lovell etc.

https://ia800202.us.archive.org/14/items/Complete_Guide_to_Handloading_Sharpe_1937/Complete_Guide_to_Handloading_Sharpe_1937.pdf

 

[roostercogburn98]

This old Ideal reloading manual mentions a few Lovell cartridges. The 2R mentioned is a rimmed cartridge so that probably is NOT what you're looking for. The 22 calibers start on page 20 of 90 in the pdf. This is probably old news to you but at least I'm trying...

https://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IdealHandbook38.pdf

Yes I have dug through all of Lovells wildcats. I have a couple that I am looking for brass or ways to recreate brass for as we speak. Sadly some will probably never be had unless I have a custom die made for them. This book is a treasure trove of 22 wildcat information that was printed in the 40s.

 

[iceng]

Amazon product ASIN B006TDSH9I
Potentially buy a copy, or ebook for those interested, as i am.

Edit.. tried to link amazon book store..

 

[roostercogburn98]

Amazon product ASIN B006TDSH9I
Potentially buy a copy, or ebook for those interested, as i am.

Edit.. tried to link amazon book store..

That 1947 copy is mine. Bought it on gunbroker for 10 bucks. Never thought I would win it for that, but got lucky

 

[jwSubMOA]

As stated in a previous post, rechambering it while saving the stamp would be straightforward. Thread pitch is 1inch diameter 16tpi. Unless it is massively different, shortening the shank 2-4 threads and moving the shoulder forward the corresponding amount would be plenty to ensure a clean chamber.
Additionally you may contact an experienced and well equipped tool and die shop about measuring the chamber with a CMM or coordinate measuring machine. While your chamber cast is surely usable, you can get some shrinkage or inaccuracies. The CMM would measure you chamber directly. Using your cast as a guide an experienced operator with current equipment should be able to get excellent measurements for you. These could then be directly used to produce a reamer and hence dies. Retired tool and die maker and gunsmith of nearly 30 years.

 

[roostercogburn98]

As stated in a previous post, rechambering it while saving the stamp would be straightforward. Thread pitch is 1inch diameter 16tpi. Unless it is massively different, shortening the shank 2-4 threads and moving the shoulder forward the corresponding amount would be plenty to ensure a clean chamber.
Additionally you may contact an experienced and well equipped tool and die shop about measuring the chamber with a CMM or coordinate measuring machine. While your chamber cast is surely usable, you can get some shrinkage or inaccuracies. The CMM would measure you chamber directly. Using your cast as a guide an experienced operator with current equipment should be able to get excellent measurements for you. These could then be directly used to produce a reamer and hence dies. Retired tool and die maker and gunsmith of nearly 30 years.

The guy who did the measurements on the cast was a retired tool and die maker as well. I’m all for multiple measurements to see how they stack up. I also have no problem sending the BA off to get measured. I just lack the knowledge of who and where. Kinda why I started this thread to see if any reputable names or shops showed up in the dialogue. If you know any place with said equipment they would be willing to do the measurements, I’m all ears and would greatly appreciate the direction.