Torn between a 15 or a 10

[Jmccracken1214]

I've got a 6.5 bolt gun, and 2 ar 15's, both 223. 16" & 18"

Ive been wanting another semi auto, with the idea that I need something harder hitting than the 223. Will be a range/match rifle used at matches out to 500. Of course, in my mind, i envision it as a SHTF defensive rifle that can engage the bad dudes at similar ranges.

Would a 223 running 73-77gr be fine for this, or am I better off with a 308? Im wanting to keep it 223/308 on this one, due to how plentiful and common ammo/reloading supplies are for these rounds.

I'd like to stay around $1200 for the rifle, if possible.

 

[aslrookie]

308 would be better but if your 18” 223 has a shitty scope on it, spend the $1200 upgrading the scope instead.

 

[Corprin]

Are you asking if a .223 pushing heavy for caliber bullets or a .308 will be harder hitting at 500yrd?

Would you rather hit a zombie over the head with your souvenir mini bat, or a game ready Louisville Slugger?

 

[acudaowner]

you could turn one of your already existing ar 15's into a 6.8 spc better ballistics than the 223 and would not take that much to run the round saving some of that 1200 for ammo , or a ar 10 and run 308 all three can shoot past 1000 yards 223 is cheaper per cost good luck on what ever you decide to do .

 

[ChitownCopper]

308 do it

 

[diving dave]

I'd also say 6.8 SPC. I know some say its a "dying" caliber but I can hit steel pretty easily at 500 with my scoped 16 inch gun. Nice round for whacking deer/hogs too.

 

[jb0311]

Acuda touched on what I was about to say. I was in a similar situation a few years back. I had put together several .223 ARs and was looking to do something different. I also wanted something a little "harder hitting" than .223 and naturally looked to putting together an AR-10 platform. I ended up going trying out a 6.8 spc upper from bison armory and am glad I tried it out. You could look at that cartridge as a compromise between a .223 and .308...more ft lbs than a .223 but less than a .308. There are several articles that compare the ballistics of the 3 rounds. I have had no issues taking down KY whitetail with a 6.8 and it does very well out of a 16" barrel which is nice when I am operating out of a climbing stand. Having a short barrel in a stand is nice, and it's allowed me to comfortably take a few off handed shots comfortably when needed. Like Acuda mentioned, the deciding factor for many is that you can slap a 6.8 upper on your existing lower and be good to go. When you factor in the funds that didn't have to go towards a new lower, aftermarket trigger and stock, it saved me around $1k to spend on a nice optic. As far as ammo, factory rounds are plentiful with the 6.8 as well, and pretty affordable. Hornady Custom 6.8 SPC 120g SST were running under $1/rounds when I picked some up a few weeks ago from Target Sports.

I can't speak to using it in competitions but to speak to your "SHTF" scenario, my 6.8 upper is what stays on my primary AR. It hasn't replaced my .223, but has made it my back up caliber for the platform, as .223 ammo is much more economical to stockpile. I also like to keep my SHTF kit as consolidated as possible and it is much easier to throw an upper with a few mags in a pack rather than toting both a .223 and .308 complete rifle around.

To conclude, with your budget, I would utilize your existing lower(s) and put a 6.8 upper on one of them, but that is just me. I will mention for the past 5 years I have been trying to find a valid excuse to finally put an AR-10 together but the 6.8 is making it hard since it fills both the hunting and defense needs I have. I can't imagine trying to piece together a competition AR-10 with a good trigger and stock and still having the coin for a respectable scope for $1200 (or maybe you have an additional budget for an optic) but I would think it is absolutely possible to go the 6.8 route and be closer to your budget.

All of this is without knowing what you have into your (2) AR-15's part-wise. I think you will be happy either route, but just wanted to throw my PSA for the 6.8 spc into the ring.

 

[pmclaine]

Your 18 inch AR should already give you everything .223 is capable of and it would probably be the go to when society fails.

Sounds like you need a .308.

If you intend to use it for match/games use fine get a .308 AR with all the bells and whistles. The AR will be the best as far as accuracy/dependability/adaptability in the semi auto realm.

But if you want something to stir your soul and 3 inch minus accuracy, perhaps limiting yourself to learning and being capable with iron sights.....maybe an M1A will interest you.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Acuda touched on what I was about to say. I was in a similar situation a few years back. I had put together several .223 ARs and was looking to do something different. I also wanted something a little "harder hitting" than .223 and naturally looked to putting together an AR-10 platform. I ended up going trying out a 6.8 spc upper from bison armory and am glad I tried it out. You could look at that cartridge as a compromise between a .223 and .308...more ft lbs than a .223 but less than a .308. There are several articles that compare the ballistics of the 3 rounds. I have had no issues taking down KY whitetail with a 6.8 and it does very well out of a 16" barrel which is nice when I am operating out of a climbing stand. Having a short barrel in a stand is nice, and it's allowed me to comfortably take a few off handed shots comfortably when needed. Like Acuda mentioned, the deciding factor for many is that you can slap a 6.8 upper on your existing lower and be good to go. When you factor in the funds that didn't have to go towards a new lower, aftermarket trigger and stock, it saved me around $1k to spend on a nice optic. As far as ammo, factory rounds are plentiful with the 6.8 as well, and pretty affordable. Hornady Custom 6.8 SPC 120g SST were running under $1/rounds when I picked some up a few weeks ago from Target Sports.

I can't speak to using it in competitions but to speak to your "SHTF" scenario, my 6.8 upper is what stays on my primary AR. It hasn't replaced my .223, but has made it my back up caliber for the platform, as .223 ammo is much more economical to stockpile. I also like to keep my SHTF kit as consolidated as possible and it is much easier to throw an upper with a few mags in a pack rather than toting both a .223 and .308 complete rifle around.

To conclude, with your budget, I would utilize your existing lower(s) and put a 6.8 upper on one of them, but that is just me. I will mention for the past 5 years I have been trying to find a valid excuse to finally put an AR-10 together but the 6.8 is making it hard since it fills both the hunting and defense needs I have. I can't imagine trying to piece together a competition AR-10 with a good trigger and stock and still having the coin for a respectable scope for $1200 (or maybe you have an additional budget for an optic) but I would think it is absolutely possible to go the 6.8 route and be closer to your budget.

All of this is without knowing what you have into your (2) AR-15's part-wise. I think you will be happy either route, but just wanted to throw my PSA for the 6.8 spc into the ring.

Thanks for the post. I've got a lower in the garage with a RRA 2 stage match trigger, rifle buffer system.. just needs a stock and grip to be complete... so Ive been eyeing a 6.5 grendel upper.. havent looked much at 6.8 stuff, but that would be the cheapest route, and lightest I suppose.

I have a 6-24 nikon black fx1000 on the shelf that will go on whatever I build.

My other Ar's arent top tier, but have been 100% reliable and accurate at 100-500 yards with my cheap bulk 55gr hand loads. Just wanting something to throw more energy down at those ranges

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Your 18 inch AR should already give you everything .223 is capable of and it would probably be the go to when society fails.

Sounds like you need a .308.

If you intend to use it for match/games use fine get a .308 AR with all the bells and whistles. The AR will be the best as far as accuracy/dependability/adaptability.

But if you want something to stir your soul and 3 inch minus accuracy, perhaps limiting yourself to learning and being capable with iron sights.....maybe an M1A will interest you.

Oh man, i've wanted a M1a since I was a kid... Had the cash plenty of times to get one, but after seeing the accuracy, needing to be rebedded after shooting a lot, I just cant justify the price for performance you get... even though its been a dream gun of mine for a long time.

Im fairly decent with irons, i've hit plates at 500 with cheap PSA ar10's and ar15's with them, plus I ran a m16A2 for 6 years in the army.

 

[Centuriator]

I've got a 6.5 bolt gun, and 2 ar 15's, both 223. 16" & 18"

Ive been wanting another semi auto, with the idea that I need something harder hitting than the 223. Will be a range/match rifle used at matches out to 500. Of course, in my mind, i envision it as a SHTF defensive rifle that can engage the bad dudes at similar ranges.

Would a 223 running 73-77gr be fine for this, or am I better off with a 308? Im wanting to keep it 223/308 on this one, due to how plentiful and common ammo/reloading supplies are for these rounds.

I'd like to stay around $1200 for the rifle, if possible.

I'd vote for the AR-10 in .308 (that was Stoner's original vision and intention for his rifle).

 

[pmclaine]

I picked up an M1A recently and it impressed me.

1993 circa SA Inc in standard GI configuration.

Havent reloaded for it but with Match ammo Im a believer.

With 20 round box mags it will deliver the pain....

Still though its a "What the heart wants, over what the brain tells you to do" thing. No denying the stability and durability of an AR in comparison.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/damn-bought-an-m1a.6979274/

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/holy-mother-of-its-better-than-christmas.6987224/

 

[ShooterwithNoName]

I'm with you on the M1A. I had a standard for about a year. It was absolutely reliable for the time I had it and I really did have a soft spot for it. I ended up selling it to fund my 308 AR because of ease of mounting optics and I shoot the AR platform better.

I really like my 308 and my 6.8's. My 308 gets more time punching paper where my 6.8's get used mostly hunting. I've ran my 18" 6.8 out to 200yds on coyotes with 120SST and 100gr/110gr Accubonds and I gotta say that it kills coyotes swiftly. I haven't taken any shots past 200 with it on game yet but I would think it would do just as well at 300yds.

I like them both, I think everyone should have a 308 though. At least to try it out if nothing else. Some people don't like them, some do. I couldn't part with mine, I would say give 308 platform a try. If it's too heavy, wieldy or just doesn't do it for you, try the 6.8. Or the 6.5 Grendel is another alternate cartridge worth serious consideration.

 

[ThreeBravo]

.223 is more than capable of accurate target engagement within the range you are talking about with the right load. I have a 20" that I run 73 ELDMs through and I run that rifle for anything under 600. If you plan to use this rifle for more than just shooting paper/steel then I would consider moving to .308 especially if you ever decide to hunt with it since many states do not allow hunting with .22cal or lower. From a SHTF prospective having another weapon that fires a different caliber opens up your options.

 

[Shawn1492]

Ar15 in the new 6 ARC

 

[Coffee_and_Pipes]

I don’t own one, but I have a soft spot for M1A’s. About 10 years ago, I got to shoot a buddy’s (I forget if it was a Loaded or National Match model), and the experience has stuck with me. Every few months, I think of picking one up with the goal of building it up as an accurate target rifle over time.

Having said all of that, my wallet has voted AR10. As much as I enjoyed shooting that M1A, I like the on-paper specs and options that come with AR10’s, like greater accuracy out of the box and a lot more modularity.

My vote for your money (take that with a grain of salt), would be an AR10. The one thing that would be nice about a 6.8 or 6.5G is that it’s a little easier to access ammo when there are runs because everyone else is buying 5.56. If you really wanted to get the best of large frame energy and ammo availability during panic ammo runs, I would recommend an AR10 in 7mm-08. If you were able to flex on your criteria, I think thar might be the best option. Otherwise, I would go AR10 in 308.

 

[The DFC]

I'd get a 308-just from an ammo availability perspective it's basically a must have IMO.

 

[r.tenorio671]

...match the caliber to the environment you will be in. If you're a city dweller or nearby suburban dweller, your engagement ranges are going to be typically shorter, definitely within the capabilities of the .223/5.56 platform. If you're out in the country, then a .308/7.62 in an appropriate barrel length will definitely provide greater stand-off capability. If ROL fails and SHTF, not everyone has the ability to "head for the hills" , but forced to stay in place initially. Surviving that urban environment for the initial breakdown will be paramount until you can escape to less crowded environs (assuming you have somewhere to go). Both .223/5.56 & .308/7.62 are the predominately available calibers, think in terms of "resupply" be it scavenging, reloading, or "acquisition". If you have to move fast, weight is a factor. In reality, there is no single solution.

For MY environment, I prefer my .300BLK 10.1" "pistol" to get me out to where I can switch to my 5.56 upper for the now more open environment. I can also use (and pack) a .22 caliber conversion unit that can be used to take game for food. MY worst case scenario is having to move quickly and I have to leave the .308/6.5CM AR behind. In my mind, a "bug out" bag (not a gym bag but a wearable back pack) with 9MM/.45ACP, .300BLK, .223/5.56 and .22LR HV ammo, 16-18" 5.56 upper, survival tools/food will do more for improving surviving than trying to carry the larger caliber platforms and the associated ammo, especially if I have to do it on foot. There is always the option to retrieve them later, maybe. Light improves flight...

 

[Jsp556]

If you’re looking for a SHTF rifle and $1200 is your budget, skip the large frame. Only a few mfg’s are producing a proven system and they’re all considerably more expensive than $1200.

M1A’s are just large frame mini14’s. Change my mind. Lol

 

[Jmccracken1214]

If you’re looking for a SHTF rifle and $1200 is your budget, skip the large frame. Only a few mfg’s are producing a proven system and they’re all considerably more expensive than $1200.

M1A’s are just large frame mini14’s. Change my mind. Lol

I actually thought this same thing last night... didn’t want to get a cheaper end ar10, even though it’d probably be fine most of the time.
I’m going to just get a 308 bolt gun.

 

[Snuby642]

Get a 6.5g upper and scope done.

 

[Baron85]

I had an AR10 308 and didn’t care for it. Too heavy in my opinion. If I was in your shoes I would be looking at 6.8 Spc or 6.5 Grendel if your wanting something other than 223. A 223 is more than capable of targets out to 600 yards, obviously if you need killing power instead of target punching I would go bigger but in reality, even in a SHTF scenario, are you really going to be shooting in self defense at 500yards?

And like already mentioned, $1200 for a large frame doesn’t get you very far.But for a small frame you could get/build a very nice rifle in your budget.

 

[GMZ]

Honestly for 500 and in I’d stick with 223/556 and just shoot the 77gr heavies exclusively. I wouldn’t even buy a new gun just get a new upper or even a WOA/CLE SPR type barrel and spend the rest of your money on ammo or glass.

 

[aslrookie]

You can only carry/transport so much stuff. Collections are great, but they are not practical unless you plan on outfitting others.

 

[slm9s]

+1 for a 6.5 Grendel upper. Great round for your stated purpose and even has cheap Wolf ammo to practice/plink with.

I have a couple large frame ARs, but the AR15 variants get all the use.

 

[Slab74]

you could turn one of your already existing ar 15's into a 6.8 spc better ballistics than the 223 and would not take that much to run the round saving some of that 1200 for ammo , or a ar 10 and run 308 all three can shoot past 1000 yards 223 is cheaper per cost good luck on what ever you decide to do .

I’ve been hunting with a 6.8 for about 5 years. It has whacked the crap out of every black tail I’ve shot with it. It was designed for clearing houses and urban warfare. So, if you are preparing for zombies, there you go.

 

[TxWelder35]

Hold out for the 6 ARC

 

[Foxtrot2November]

Get a ar14 and call it good

 

[The DFC]

Get a ar14 and call it good

 

[W54/XM-388]

One quick question, you mention:

i envision it as a SHTF defensive rifle that can engage the bad dudes at similar ranges.

So in this SHTF are you and the bad guys driving your SUVs to the engagement then piling your guns onto some carts and wheeling them to your shooting position?

Something to consider strongly might be if you can actually carry this all day long, with a bunch of other gear, with a bunch of matching ammo for it then hit your targets easily without needing to get all setup in place.

Can you shoot it on the move and keep it at the ready for long periods.

Then what will your rounds to do your target when they get there at the expected ranges.

 

[pmclaine]

M1A’s are just large frame mini14’s. Change my mind. Lol

Lies, Damn Liars and Lying Dog Faced Pony Soldier Liars.......

Just left the range.......

 

[UpSideDown]

$1,200 doesn't buy jack shit in .308. I'm building a fighting rifle right now, and keeping the cost in check. It's still going to be a $5,000 gun.

- Barrett REC10: $2,350
- Optic: $1,200
- Magazines, 14 bare minimum: $250
- Sling: $80
- Light, Surefire 600DF: $200
- Offset light mount: $50
- Ammunition to start: $1,000

If you want a $1,200 .308, you probably need to put that money into your 5.56 platform.

No gun is useful outside the house without a sling, light, optic, reliable magazines, good ammunition, and something to carry more ammunition. Have a chest rig? Have a good quality light? A sling you like and know how to use? Thousands of rounds of training with that gun?

If no to any of the above, don't get a new gun. 5.56 is better than .308 in almost every way. There are only a few times .308 is more advantageous than 5.56. A cheaper, softer recoiling round with somewhat comparable ballistics that lets you carry 50% more ammunition for the same weight and less space is usually a better pick (5.56).

 

[PBWalsh]

@UpSideDown

Definitely agree. I too want a .308 fighting rifle, but after pricing out a similar build built on an Aero M5 set, I'm looking at 4.6-4.9k fully kitted out (optic, buis, sling, light). Kinda makes me think how much training I could get in with my 5.56 AR for the same cost!

The logical reasons I can see getting a 308 AR is if you have the realistic need to punch through level 3+ armor, concrete walls, small trees, dangerous game, and thin metals on a regular basis. Even then, a good 5.56 can do most of that with proper loads, superior movement, capacity, and rate of fire.

That said, I'd still love a good 16" AR pattern 308 rifle.

 

[UpSideDown]

$5,000 buys 16-30,000 rounds of 5.56 without special pricing.

5.56 penetrates armor better than .308. .308 goes through barriers better - whether that is a pro or a con is up to you.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Next question...

20" or 22" 308?

 

[hink001]

I went through something similar these past couple months... on a different forum someone suggested the 6.5 Grendel as the ultimate caliber... I argued against it. I have a 20" 308 ar10, fairly high quality w/ criterion barrel. It shoots moa w/ 175's. I also have an 18" ar in 556 that's shoots moa w/ Frontier 75's. I choose the 18" ar because it hits close enough at 300 yards w/ 55gr and at the time I could get the Frontier for 43 cpr vs 90 cpr for the 308 or 6.5g. Last week an Aero 20" 6.5g fell into my lap in a trade and now I'm stocking 3 calibers... ugh. There are pro's/cons to all 3. 556 is easiest to resupply, 6.5g the most difficult but is an excellent 500 yard round that can reach out to about 800... yes even further, same as 308. You can carry twice as much 556 vs 308 and 6.5g is the same as x39 so about 45% heavier than 556 so in between.

I think an Aero upper was about $600 plus $120 bolt and a charging handle. They weren't in stock last week but that would leave some money for a decent optic. Use one of your ar lowers and you're good to go. I've only taken my rifles out to 300 yards. 308 and 556 is boringly easy at that range.

 

[dexter]

I've got a 6.5 bolt gun, and 2 ar 15's, both 223. 16" & 18"

Ive been wanting another semi auto, with the idea that I need something harder hitting than the 223. Will be a range/match rifle used at matches out to 500. Of course, in my mind, i envision it as a SHTF defensive rifle that can engage the bad dudes at similar ranges.

Would a 223 running 73-77gr be fine for this, or am I better off with a 308? Im wanting to keep it 223/308 on this one, due to how plentiful and common ammo/reloading supplies are for these rounds.

I'd like to stay around $1200 for the rifle, if possible.

Here's an idea...

Get rid of the 18", or upgrade the barrel to a 20", and you will be fine out to 600 yards with good optics and 77gr SMK's. A much simpler solution than an additional rifle and using the same ammunition. I shoot my 20" AR out to 600 all the time.

Of course an AR-10 in .308 is better, but the cost is higher and you will need different ammunition than what u already have. (I have an AR-10 with a 24: Kreiger and NF Optics that is set up to 1000 - A blast to shoot at distance)

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Here's an idea...

Get rid of the 18", or upgrade the barrel to a 20", and you will be fine out to 600 yards with good optics and 77gr SMK's. A much simpler solution than an additional rifle and using the same ammunition. I shoot my 20" AR out to 600 all the time.

Of course an AR-10 in .308 is better, but the cost is higher and you will need different ammunition than what u already have. (I have an AR-10 with a 24: Kreiger and NF Optics that is set up to 1000 - A blast to shoot at distance)

My original plan as altered since the post. I bought back a 6.5 grendel build that I sold a friend last year. I also picked up a Psa ar10 lower locally. And I finished another ar15 lower with a a2 stock, so it’ll be getting a 20” upper.

I shot the 18” today, it’s too cool and smooth to change up so it’ll stay.