Rifle Scopes Torque Tool for Scope Rings

7

77Bronc

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 19, 2006
344
0
Louisiana
#1
I want to order either a Borka or Wheeler Engineering torque wrench/driver...Which one do you think is the best and more accurate.

I have a Seekonk for my LMT MRP barrel and its built like a tank, and I use it very often, will not use the one for the rings often, so I cant really justify a 15 and 30 in-lbs individual wrenches from Seekonk for minimal use.

77
 
#3
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

If you ever plan on taking the tools with you into the field, go with whatever is lightest. I have a 65in-lb Seekonk and an adjustable torque driver for the ring tops. Combined, they are heavier and bulkier than I like. The Borqua looks near perfect since it takes up little room and is light.

In terms of accuracy, I don't believe it really matters that much. +/- a few in-lbs won't make a difference. Repeatability is much more important when you disassemble and re-assemble.

Don't overdo tightening the rings to the scope. I almost cried when I saw a friend's S&B scope when he removed the rings. Someone tightened them down so hard that it deformed the metal. To S&B's credit, it did not affect the scope's function. 15-20 in-lbs appears to be more than adequate.

--Rootshot
 
#4
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

Just got my Borka this week and it works like a charm, I got the MG-5 with all the extra's (any bit type and 1/2 inch socket you would ever need for a scope and action, think it was about $130.00 delivered and packs up real small and light.
 
#5
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

I have the Wheeler and it gets the job done. If I need to buy another it will probably be a Borka though. More compact and the adjustments on the Wheeler leave more room for inconsistencies.
 
#6
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

I've had two wheelers and I currently use the borka. Over all I found the wheeler to be easier to use simply because it's similar to using a screw driver.

The borka has grown on me however, and I found it easier to be consistent with the applied torque which was more important to me.

The borka is simple and better constructed in my opinion. The other wheeler I had broke after about a year of use.

I ended up selling my new wheeler and I've been happy with my decision. The borka is way easier and lighter to take into the field and for me that's always a plus.
 
#7
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

Borka It is, will order in the morning....

Thanks for the replies and feedback...the Wheeler looks like it would be easier, but the design behind the Borka, basically a F x D tool, with break, to me will be more consistent.

77
 
#8
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

I have the borka now and it is excellent quality, and i have the confidence i am getting repeatable, accurate torque. My experience with the Wheeler was opposite of repeatable and accurate. YMMV
 
#10
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 77Bronc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to order either a Borka or Wheeler Engineering torque wrench/driver...Which one do you think is the best and more accurate.

I have a Seekonk for my LMT MRP barrel and its built like a tank, and I use it very often, will not use the one for the rings often, so I cant really justify a 15 and 30 in-lbs individual wrenches from Seekonk for minimal use.

77 </div></div>

Any mechanical type fixed (or pre-set) torque tool is always more accurate than the mechanical adjustable one, assuming that adjustment is done correctly. This applies to Seekonk, Mountz, Borka preset torque tools, which are actually adjusted to specs and do not rely on theoretical spring load/deflection relationship. Fixed torque tools are also always more repeatable and consistent, because there is no adjustment scale for dynamic adjustment by the user, and user adjustment error is eliminated as a matter of principle. Some adjustable torque tools are better than the others, but unless you take such tool and check it with the torque meter, there is no way to be sure that actual torque tool output matches adjustment scale values. In addition, spring has certain limitations, and does not typically has linear load output proportional to spring deflection from 0 to solid height. When I came to understanding of this limitation of the adjustable torque tools when compared to fixed torque tools, I've developed my multi torque driver, which is fixed type torque driver, adjusted to exact specs only once during production. I also started checking every one of my imported ATD-1080 adjustable torque screwdrivers on torque meter prior to shipping them to the customers, to elimite the ones which were out of specs. On the other hand, I would say that adjustable torque tools with electronic scale and load cells are probably highly accurate, but very expensive. Just be aware that mechanical, spring based tools like HF 20-200 inch-lbs. ones for $20 are very likely off the scale quite a bit at the low and high end of the scale. I have my doubts that any responsible spring manufacturer can claim to be able to mass produce a compression spring having linear load characteristics in such wide range. So, I would certainly not use $20 torque tool with 1-to-10 adjustment ratio for anything like scope rings.




 
#13
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

I use a pair Seekonk wrenches at home on the bench for scope/ring mounting; they're extremely well built and very accurate when I checked them on the torque checking calibration machine at work.

On top of that there is always a Borka kit in my field bag. Great kit that has almost everything you'd ever need in it-- torque wrench, extension, reversible ratchet driver for loosening fasteners, and a very complete bit assortment. The Borka also is also useful for other jobs such as action to stock torque, etc as it has a range from 15-72 in/lb. It also checks out very well on the calibration machine we have at work. It's a wonderfully simple design that has very little to ever fail or go wrong and provides multiple torque settings like an adjustable torque driver but with the repeatability and accuracy of a fixed-torque driver.

If I only had to buy one it would be the Borka simply because it has a much greater variety of uses than the fixed-torque Seekonk wrenches, it's more accurate and repeatable than cheapie adjustable torque drivers, and it's a very complete and light field-friendly kit.

 
#15
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have a pile of the Borka kits in stock including the MG3-SRA!

Scott </div></div>

Hi, Scott, direct linky??

Neil B
 
#16
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 77Bronc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to order either a or Wheeler Engineering torque wrench/driver...Which one do you think is the best and more accurate.

I have a Seekonk for my LMT MRP barrel and its built like a tank, and I use it very often, will not use the one for the rings often, so I cant really justify a 15 and 30 in-lbs individual wrenches from Seekonk for minimal use.

77 </div></div>

Any mechanical type fixed (or pre-set) torque tool is always more accurate than the mechanical adjustable one, assuming that adjustment is done correctly. This applies to Seekonk, Mountz, Borka preset torque tools, which are actually adjusted to specs and do not rely on theoretical spring load/deflection relationship. Fixed torque tools are also always more repeatable and consistent, because there is no adjustment scale for dynamic adjustment by the user, and user adjustment error is eliminated as a matter of principle. Some adjustable torque tools are better than the others, but unless you take such tool and check it with the torque meter, there is no way to be sure that actual torque tool output matches adjustment scale values. In addition, spring has certain limitations, and does not typically has linear load output proportional to spring deflection from 0 to solid height. When I came to understanding of this limitation of the adjustable torque tools when compared to fixed torque tools, I've developed my multi torque driver, which is fixed type torque driver, adjusted to exact specs only once during production. I also started checking every one of my imported ATD-1080 adjustable torque screwdrivers on torque meter prior to shipping them to the customers, to elimite the ones which were out of specs. On the other hand, I would say that adjustable torque tools with electronic scale and load cells are probably highly accurate, but very expensive. Just be aware that mechanical, spring based tools like HF 20-200 inch-lbs. ones for $20 are very likely off the scale quite a bit at the low and high end of the scale. I have my doubts that any responsible spring manufacturer can claim to be able to mass produce a compression spring having linear load characteristics in such wide range. So, I would certainly not use $20 torque tool with 1-to-10 adjustment ratio for anything like scope rings.




</div></div>

Well put and I agree, that is why I have a $160 Seekonk dedicated to 140 in-lbs for my LMT MRP uppers/barrels, it is much easier/cheaper than drilling out a broken stud in an expensive upper.

I am a mechanical engineer and I work with machinery that requires very precise assembly and torquing for reliable operation. The Borka is a very simple design that requires an exact placement of the fingers for the spring to break in the handle, from what I can see. It is a simple F x D mechanism and for my limited use, I feel will do the job. In the long run, if I was doing this daily, I would have a collection of Seekonks on my bench

Once again thanks for the replies

77
 
#17
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

Applying force to the finger groove of the handle is indeed important in order to have output torque matching the torque values. Break over force is set up with accuracy of +/-2%. I've seen a post by one of the guys from U.K., who uses cord attached to the middle of the handle finger groove, and correctly claims that his Borka torque driver delivers torque within +/-2%:

UKvarminting

While calculating my design, I took into consideration that users may have difficulty applying tightening (break over) force exactly to the middle of the finger groove, which is indeed possible with much thinner cord, and evaluated additional error due to typical finger size and, excuse me, some finger compressability, and tendency of the users to apply vector of the force between the center of the goove and the outer edge of the finger groove. This "finger error" may open up tightening force (torque) deviation to +/-4% as opposed to calibration accuracy deviation of +/-2%. This level of accuracy is more than sufficient for any gun related application. So, as long as user applies force to any spot on the surface of the finger groove between the edges of the finger groove, +/-4% will hold. Presence or lack of lubrication in threads is by far the biggest factor affecting consistency and accuracy of the clamping force generated by torque applied to the fastener, and may create clamping force deviation of 50% or more. That is a real issue.
 
#18
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paduan Learner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have a pile of the Borka kits in stock including the MG3-SRA!

Scott </div></div>

Hi, Scott, direct linky??

Neil B </div></div>

Hang in there, guys, a common complaint on our low-budget website is that pages don't index with their own URL; we are working behind the scenes on a new website that will do exactly that, and more. Just look it up under "Accessories" and click "Borka Tools"

Thanks!
 
#19
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

+1 for the Borka torque wrench
smile.gif
!

I bought mine last year direct from Borka Tools under the SH special buy. This thing is simple, well built, and seems bullet proof. I bought the MG3-SRA, which today is sold as the MG5 (includes full accessory pack and nylon carry case). The specs, repeatability, and customer satisfaction seem to speak for themselves.

I would recommend that anyone looking for a torque wrench for mounting a scope and/or rings take a look at the Borka wrench!
 
#20
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

About $500.00 for the two Snap On torque wrenches you need to cover the different torque ranges, give or take some sort of discounts with no other adapters, sockets, or different type drivers. I've got some Snap On torque wrenches but I wouldn't want them to get wet or take them out in foul weather. The Borka is pretty much bullet proof, just add a little drop of oil once in awhile. Accuracy is pretty much what a Snap On is. Borka; about $130.00 delivered to your front door, Borka MG5 with all the accessories.
 
#23
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

Got mine last week and it works just as advertised: small and light and built like a tank. The MG5 has all the different drivers and adapters for any type scope mounting or action mounting.
 
#24
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the MG3-SRA, its a great kit and is real handy/compact.

Whats up with the MG5? I have not seen it yet. </div></div>

Never mind, just copied this off of the Borka site...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI: MG5 kit was initially introduced at the end of 2010 thru www.snipershide.com as MG3-SRA kit (MG3 driver kit with Sniper Rifle Accessories), and is known under this name to SH forums members. MG3-SRA and MG5 are absolutely identical products.</div></div>
 
#26
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

Haha yeah for a minute there I thought I got the short end of the stick cause 5 sounds better than 3... Turns out same same.

I've had mine a month or two now and I have gone through every action and scope screw on all of my guns, some of my uncle's and next will be my brothers. A lot of them were off. Had a Wheeler Fat before this but I don't like it near as much. The Borka goes everywhere and has all the stuff I need in one pouch.
 
#28
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

I know I've created a bit of confusion, as I like to do, but here is the list of torque driver kits:

MG3 - MG( military grade) torque driver + adapters in TAB GEAR pouch
MG5 - MG3 with all accessories (aka MG3-SRA)

MG4 - same as MG3, but in Dave Manson Precision Reamers pouch
MG6 - MG4 with all accessories (MG4-SRA, by association)

No difference in price between MG3 and MG4, and between MG5 and MG6.

Started using MG5 instead of MG3-SRA to "simplify" name for the kit and reduce the length of the product code. Will be asking everybody selling this kit to switch from MG3-SRA code to MG5, but no rush...

MG1 is just a torque driver with no adapters and no pouch, packaged in plastic tool tube - this one is manufactured exclusively for Brownells, their item # 080-000-737. MG2 may or may not be coming, and I have no idea yet what it will look like. Possibly, MG2 will be the same as MG1, but with Mountz Autolock instead of simple magnetic bit holder. Autolock is a great bit holding device, clamps bits and extensions real well and also, works as a magnetic bit holder.

BTW, I've had questions from some guys if all torque drivers are laser marked with torque values. The answer is yes - from June of 2010, all Borka Tools torque drivers have laser marked torque values. The first 300 or so torque drivers, sold between January and May of 2010 were not laser marked, as I initially did not have production capabilities to mark them, and user was supposed to use set-up chart instead.

 
#29
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

Kortik,

You say that lubrication on the threads will affect clamping force. If one were to use locktite on threads, should the torque setting be adjusted down? By how much?

Thanks for the info, and the nice tools.
 
#30
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

AR4U,

Sorry, didn't follow this thread for a while.

Anyway, I do not know what is the correction factor. Logically, loctite does work a bit like lubricant, so torque spec may be adjusted down somewhat.

If you are really interested, the best approach would be to get hold of Loctite engineers.

Also, see this thread:
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-826084.html

I have a gut feeling that 20-30% reduction in torque for screws fully covered with loctite would likely create the same clamping force. I also do not believe loctite and oil (grease) are equals in reducing friction to the same level.
 
#31
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

i know the the OP has already made his choice, but i just wanted to echo what the many above me have said... borka rocks! such a simple, compact, handy litte kit. i highly recommend it.
 
#33
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr Pink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i know the the OP has already made his choice, but i just wanted to echo what the many above me have said... borka rocks! such a simple, compact, handy litte kit. i highly recommend it. </div></div>

Mr Pink

Being the OP, I did buy the Borka, and it is great, I have used it a lot and I will be getting another one for the traveling tool box....Thanks again for all of the wonderful replies.

Edited to add: Lubrication does have a tremendous impact to the value of the torque, I have my own spreadsheets that I designed for different lubrication values. The real target for fasteners is the pre-load value, how much loading force in a fastener, the lubrication factor is used to get the proper torque value for a given pre-load

In my opinion, when using the Borka for small scope rings and mounts, install dry.

77
 
#34
Re: Torque Tool for Scope Rings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 77Bronc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mr Pink said:
In my opinion, when using the Borka for small scope rings and mounts, install dry.

77 </div></div>

I would do the same. Dry threads are much more predictable, while oiled, waxed, greased, loctited, coated with all kinds of stuff threads are very likely to create a lot of difficult to know variations, cause for each of these lubricants, coefficient of friction is not really the same, and with
the same value of the torque, clamping force may vary quite a bit.
Click to expand...
 
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