Torque Wrench for Mounting Optics

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commandernavi

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Minuteman
Dec 20, 2012
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Texas
#1
Hi all.

I am currently in the process of mounting a nightforce rail onto my Remington 700 SPS tactical and wanted to know what torque wrench would be suitable and do a good job. I am currently considering the Wheeler Engineering F.A.T. driver off of Amazon for 50 bucks, but if there is something that is much better in a similar price range, I may get that instead. I have heard about Wiha, but those are at least twice as expensive and seem to accomplish the same thing (I think). Are there any cheaper versions of the Borka Tools Torque Driver?

Please advise me. Thank you!!

Amazon.com: Wheeler Firearms Accurizing Torque Wrench: Sports & Outdoors

Wiha 28506 TorqueVario-S Torque Screwdriver, 10-50 Inch Pound - Amazon.com

Borka Tools military grade (MG) torque driver, ATD-15x72-12FS-MG
 
#5
Lol. I was afraid you guys would say that. It just seems that every turn and minor part of precision long range costs an arm and a leg. I knew it would be this way but I didn't realize I would need to pay over 100 dollars to buy a wrench. That's my own fault though. :p
 
#8
I got the Borka as an xmas present last year. Before then I would steal the wrench from work and bring it home. Now I have one whenever I need it. I also fully vouch for the version that comes in the tab gear cover. Nice compact package!
 
#9
I can't say that I've ever had an issue with the Borka as far as getting a precise value. Not to meniont that a lot of scope vendors recomment 12 inch pounds but the Borka bottoms out at 15. I've just used 15 and never end up with ring marks or any issues what-so-ever. I like that I can have it on me at the range if need be (usually don't but it's there). Its like taking your raingear fishing so that it won't rain. ;)

Its consistent, easily portable, and I feel like its a pretty fair price for what you get. Just make sure if you go with a standard torque wrench that you don't get a beam type. Also make sure that you have something capable of going down to the 12-15 inch pound range and also inculdes at least 65 inch pounds on the top end. And last but not least make sure its INCH pounds and not foot pounds.

~Brett
 
#10
I Have the Snap On QDRIVER4 Range is 5 in. lbs. to 40 in. lbs. and mine had .25% accuracy average when it was certified. Dont remember what I paid for it but feel that I got a good deal. works well, easy to set, and fits in the range bag. Has anyone had any problems with them that I should be aware of?
 
#11
Parker13 said:
I Have the Snap On QDRIVER4 Range is 5 in. lbs. to 40 in. lbs. and mine had .25% accuracy average when it was certified. Dont remember what I paid for it but feel that I got a good deal. works well, easy to set, and fits in the range bag. Has anyone had any problems with them that I should be aware of?
Click to expand...

No you're looking good with that piece of kit. But still from what I've seen those go for a bit over 200 bucks. I ordered my Borka from Triad in the MG7 field kit for 145 bucks. That gave me the torque wrench along with a bunch of other bits and a nice travel case for the whole thing. I also very much dig that it comes with the correct tool for doing AICS take downs. It also comes with proper gunsmith flat head screw drivers with sharp corners on the blades. Many people don't already have these.

The snap on tool allows for much finer increments and is probably a more accurate tool. But for less money you can end up with a full set of tools and bits that you may or may not have already had. If you already have all the bits and what not the snap on is probably a better tool.
 
#12
Not sure what the AICS uses for a bit because I dont have one yet. But as far as bits go I have tons, including most security bits. I need them for work thats why i purchased the snap on.
 
#13
Parker13 said:
Not sure what the AICS uses for a bit because I dont have one yet. But as far as bits go I have tons, including most security bits. I need them for work thats why i purchased the snap on.
Click to expand...

I think its a 3/16" hex but it has to be on a long extension that is fairly skinny to get up through the stock sides. See the attached picture.
 

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#14
Well I must be a cheap bastard because I use the Wheeler FAT and I love mine. I use it very often because I do all of the gun work for my friends and family who own guns. It works fine and seems pretty accurate to me
 
#18
I have the Borka, Wiha, FAT, and Craftsman. I use the Wiha more than the Borka on scopes simply because, for me, the screwdriver design seems easier to keep the bit engaged more completely. The Borka is in my range bag. Extremely compact and versatile for different tasks. The Craftsman is handy for jobs with higher torque values where the extra leverage is nice, but is overkill on scopes. The FAT sits in the bottom drawer waiting for me to throw it away.
 
#19
Someone asked about standards met by these various tools. I only checked on the Wiha, but at least in the case of the Wiha it was easily available. I looked at the ASME standard, which you can google. It is to long to bother copying here. Here is a summary of the informatin on the Wiha:

• Tools Marked with Serial No. & Include Calibration Certificate
• Meets ASME B107.14m, EN ISO 6789, BS EN 26789
• Quality & Accuracy Guaranteed to 5000 Cycles
• Laser Calibrated & Scale Marked, Serialized for traceability
• Enclosed Mechanism Ideal for production controlled environments
• Secure Torque Setting, Requires torque adjustment tool
• Reverse Torque is 50% higher than indicated setting, easy removal
• Guaranteed accuracy to 5000 cycles or 1 year

Their "Easy tool" does not meet all these standards, but the professional ones, starting at about $121, do.
 
#25
Have both the Wheeler and the Borka kit. Use the Borka most times, but have checked and the Wheeler clicks when double checking the Borka's setting. You want cheap, go with the Wheeler. You want American made in a simple lever design, backed by a Hide sponsor, who calibrates each tool before it leaves his shop, and provides great customer service go with the Borka. At the end of the day, either will probably work for you. The Borka has fewer parts to wear out compared to the Wheeler. If you are just going to mount one base, scope and a set of rings and seldom use the tool ever again, go Wheeler. It's your stuff, if you feel going cheaper is ok for your uses for a seldom used tool have at it. There is a reason alot of folks around here recommend the Borka - it works, it's quality, it lasts and it does cost more than the other. Roll the dice and buy what you wish, but you have some coin invested in a good rail, and gun why take the chance in the long run. Your other option would be just to borrow a tool if it's something you don't think you use much.
 
#28
I started off with the Wheeler and to be fair it is easy to use. However since getting the Borka there is really no comparison. Use the two side by side and there is a big difference torque values achieved for any given setting. I trust the Borka, the Wheeler now just gets used for AICS stock sides on its lowest setting.
 
#32
I got a US made beam style torque wrench, KD Tools 2955, for around $40. You may find one cheaper online. 0-60 inch lbs., you can't carry it in a drag bag, but it would work in a range box. Nightforce's T goes to 68 but you can over torque the beam style and eyeball 65-68 easy. USO uses 15 and 30 on their rings, 30 for Larue, and everyone is different, so that 0-60 works best all around (for me) and not many inexpensive torque wrenches will go down to 15lbs. I tend to use QD mounts on everything with a penchant for Larue, and just carry the necessary hex and/or torx keys in the field kit for that rifle's rings or parts.

Those screwdriver torque wrenches are really nice, but really expensive too. If I did it for a business, I'd likely get one though. As a shooter, the beam works great for $40 or less, and made in USA.
 
#34
I have a Borka, Seekonk 15 in-lb, 55 in-lb, and 65 in-lb preset wrenches, and a Mountz MT50-AFH 5-50 in-lb adjustable screwdriver.

I also have access to an expensive torque reading & calibration machine at work so of course I brought them all in with me to test.

The Seekonk wrenches are extremely accurate and repeatable (far better than their maximum spec would indicate) and being preset are mindless when it comes to use-- grab the right one and tighten. They are also very technique-insensitive because of their grip design. However, being preset wrenches means you need to buy one for every torque value you might want to tighten to so they aren't very cost effective.

The Borka is also quite accurate but I've found that it is very technique sensitive and this effect is magnified at the lowest torque configurations. Depending on how you grip and apply force to the handle, especially on the 15 & 18 in-lb configurations, you can impart torque well beyond the labeled values. I let a friend at work try the Borka without showing or describing the proper grip; he used a 4 finger grip on the handle (everything but his pinky) and he proceeded to produce torques between 18 and 26 in-lb with the wrench setup in the 15 in-lb configuration. However, if you apply force as shown in the instructions and it will torque to the proper value-- typically within 0.5 in-lbs at the 15 in-lb setting, or about 3.3%. That's quite good.

The Mountz wrench I've found to be repeatable but not quite as accurate as the Borka or Seekonk; it's rated at +/- 6%. On the tester I've found a 15 in-lb setting results in an applied torque between 14.2-15.8 in-lb. At 45 in-lb it will yield torques ranging from 44-46 in-lb. The Mountz seems to be very repeatable and well within the +/- 6% accuracy tolerance. Much like the Seekonk it isn't very technique sensitive but the observed accuracy is less than the Seekonk or the Borka (when used properly.)

Because of the the observed technique sensitivity of the Borka I tend to use the Seekonk or the Mountz when torquing ring screws-- less chance of overtorquing the small ring cap screws from improper technique. For base screws typically requiring 45-65 in-lb any of them will do the job; if the base screws call for 55 or 65 in-lb I'll use the Seekonk because of their high level of accuracy & repeatability but if it falls outside those 2 ranges I'll use the Borka or Mountz. In the field I carry and will use the Borka but I'm mindful to use the proper technique of applying force to the handle to produce an accurate torque.

I'd put a strong recommendation in for the Borka because not only is it quite accurate when used correctly it also includes a very nice high quality and well thought out Mountz bit assortment with it. I have the MG7 and it is always in my shooting bag.
 
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#35
Another vote for Borka.
The fine torque wrench aside, that little red box is so compact and easy to keep around.
I find myself reaching for it simply just for the little ratchet handle and multiple precision bits, instead of humping up an old tool box for loose allens or screwdrivers.
Borka Borka Borka
 
#36
Kiba said:
I have a Borka, Seekonk 15 in-lb, 55 in-lb, and 65 in-lb preset wrenches, and a Mountz MT50-AFH 5-50 in-lb adjustable screwdriver.

I also have access to an expensive torque reading & calibration machine at work so of course I brought them all in with me to test.

The Seekonk wrenches are extremely accurate and repeatable (far better than their maximum spec would indicate) and being preset are mindless when it comes to use-- grab the right one and tighten. They are also very technique-insensitive because of their grip design. However, being preset wrenches means you need to buy one for every torque value you might want to tighten to so they aren't very cost effective.

The Borka is also quite accurate but I've found that it is very technique sensitive and this effect is magnified at the lowest torque configurations. Depending on how you grip and apply force to the handle, especially on the 15 & 18 in-lb configurations, you can impart torque well beyond the labeled values. I let a friend at work try the Borka without showing or describing the proper grip; he used a 4 finger grip on the handle (everything but his pinky) and he proceeded to produce torques between 18 and 26 in-lb with the wrench setup in the 15 in-lb configuration. However, if you apply force as shown in the instructions and it will torque to the proper value-- typically within 0.5 in-lbs at the 15 in-lb setting, or about 3.3%. That's quite good.

The Mountz wrench I've found to be repeatable but not quite as accurate as the Borka or Seekonk; it's rated at +/- 6%. On the tester I've found a 15 in-lb setting results in an applied torque between 14.2-15.8 in-lb. At 45 in-lb it will yield torques ranging from 44-46 in-lb. The Mountz seems to be very repeatable and well within the +/- 6% accuracy tolerance. Much like the Seekonk it isn't very technique sensitive but the observed accuracy is less than the Seekonk or the Borka (when used properly.)

Because of the the observed technique sensitivity of the Borka I tend to use the Seekonk or the Mountz when torquing ring screws-- less chance of overtorquing the small ring cap screws from improper technique. For base screws typically requiring 45-65 in-lb any of them will do the job; if the base screws call for 55 or 65 in-lb I'll use the Seekonk because of their high level of accuracy & repeatability but if it falls outside those 2 ranges I'll use the Borka or Mountz. In the field I carry and will use the Borka but I'm mindful to use the proper technique of applying force to the handle to produce an accurate torque.

I'd put a strong recommendation in for the Borka because not only is it quite accurate when used correctly it also includes a very nice high quality and well thought out Mountz bit assortment with it. I have the MG7 and it is always in my shooting bag.
Click to expand...

Kiba,

Great review of various options. You're certainly correct that Borka owner needs to read user guide before using the tool. I do agree that this is sort of inconvenience , but hope it's not too much to ask from the user. After all, it's not a hammer or an axe, which is real easy to use even w/o user guide, cause there is realistically only one way to hold and use hammer and/or an axe...

Also, I did find your remarks abount Seekonk T-handle to be completely in line with my own thinking:

"The Seekonk wrenches are extremely accurate and repeatable (far better than their maximum spec would indicate) and being preset are mindless when it comes to use-- grab the right one and tighten. They are also very technique-insensitive because of their grip design. However, being preset wrenches means you need to buy one for every torque value you might want to tighten to so they aren't very cost effective."

That is the reason I've also introduced PTLs - precision torque limiters, preset to a specific single torque value. My PTLS are exceptionally accurate and also, technique-insensitive, and are based on industrial, heavy duty torque tool design intended for small to medium size production applications, and supplied with industry approved individual cerificates of calibration matching serial number of each individual torque limiter. PTLS are also sold at about 55-60% of the average Seekonk retail price. This level of pricing somewhat improves situation for single torque setting tools being in "they aren't very cost effective" department. There is, w/o doubt, a good use for a dedicated single setting torque tool like PTL or Seekonk, along with more universal designs like MG multi torque driver or other brands, mentioned in this thread.

Current PTL related link:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ent/190722-62-65-68-inch-lbs-torque-tool.html

Thank you.

Boris
 
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#37
Thanks Boris.

Your MG7 is very well thought out, quite accurate, and very compact. Perfect for the range bag and really it's perfect for any application as long as you are tightening something that requires a torque value that's available on the tool (or very close to it.) The tool being somewhat sensitive to technique is a tradeoff that goes along the extremely simple & compact design. As long as you are mindful of technique, consistency, and proper force application on the grip the tool works perfectly and does so with very good levels of accuracy & repeatability.

Read the instructions, use it right, and it's a great tool.

Unfortunately the end user, as usual, seems to be the weak link. :D
 
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#39
I have both the Borka MG7 kit, as well as some Seekonk T-handles. I take the Borka with me in my field bag and use the T-handles at home. I seriously LOVE the Borka kit.
 
#41
I have the Wheeler FAT and it works well, but then again I have one rifle set up for precision and not 10 diff. rifles like most in here. You really have to look at how much you'll use it once you torque that base down you'll never touch it again, in that case I would use the extra money on something else, just my opinion.
 
#42
I bought a Wiha and have been real pleased with it. .22 action screws, scope ring and base mounting, etc. I was lucky enough to buy it when the dollar was much stronger against the Euro. Shipped with 3 adapters was a little over $100. My they've gone up.
 
#43
Borka torque drivers for me. Have a very nice Proto but never use it as the Borka's are not only in my range bag but also on the bench.
Small, light and easy to use. Have also loaned it out at matches when a few people have had issues.
To me its more important that Boris is on here supporting the sport we enjoy and makes a fantastic product that he stands behind than to save a few dollars on something made in China.
 
#45
I guess I will try to save up for the Borka then. This is the only gun I have that needs precision work, but I plan to get other systems in the future. Anybody know which of the Borka kits is the best deal (I don't have any fancy bits yet). Also, do you know if any sales come up or if there are any discounts available for the tool now to save a bit of money? I am not really all that exactly wealthy and this tool is a lot of money. :/
 
#46
Diver160651 said:
While I agree the Favorite B wrench is easy...,,

Really +- the accuracy % +- the guess between the course settings and you guys are loving your purchase. Good 4U. But please be honest with yourself and others. Is it compact, yes. Is it accurate at every range?

Sorry I am so tired of hearing + reviews just because somebody owns it.

Time to be honest. Is the wheeler - + X, is the Borka -+ X + the difference between settings, is a real torque wrench better? Again, 2 many minions.

Sorry, in a bad mood.






Sent from my iPhone

Jt
Click to expand...

Unless you've actually tested the Borka tool at every range you're speculating that it's not within specs based upon it's cost, size, and function and not on actual facts or tests...

Add: You're also making an assumption that people only respond based upon the ownership of just that item and not based upon the ownership of multiple items and experiences with those products. Sounds more like you're trying to justify your reasoning for your own decisions by downplaying others choices.
 
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#47
So very many threads, on this topic.

So very many people asking the same questions.

So very many comments along the same line, are thrown out there.

Why is it that people ask questions that they really don't want the answers to?

And just because the answer is 'different' than what they were wanting, the automatic knee-jerk reaction is that everyone's wrong. Which brings me back to my first question.
 
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#48
Diver160651 said:
While I agree the Favorite B wrench is easy...,,

Really +- the accuracy % +- the guess between the course settings and you guys are loving your purchase. Good 4U. But please be honest with yourself and others. Is it compact, yes. Is it accurate at every range?

Sorry I am so tired of hearing + reviews just because somebody owns it.

Time to be honest. Is the wheeler - + X, is the Borka -+ X + the difference between settings, is a real torque wrench better? Again, 2 many minions.

Sorry, in a bad mood.






Sent from my iPhone

Jt
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about you being in a bad mood.

In regard to your comment about "real torque wrench" - there are many designs of "real" torque wrenches, including, for example:

1. Click type
2. Break-over type
3. Cam over type

For example, see this really simple explanation:

Selecting the Proper Torque Wrench | eBay

Borka MG driver is a break-over type, which is also a pre-set torque tool. It incorporates single compression spring, pre-set to specific load. This single spring, which can be adjusted to specific load within specific tolerance, is used to deliver 12 limiting torque settings, determined by the geometry of the torque driver parts. Therefore, limiting torque accuracy and consistency in relative % terms is the same for every one of available torque settings, for example, if spring is adjusted (once) to specific load with, say, +/-4% deviation from nominal value, every one of the 12 torque settings in Borka MG driver, from 15 to 72 inch-lbs., will have the same limit of deviation, in this case, +/- 4%.

So, when Borka MG driver is calibrated to any one of the 12 torque settings, the rest of 11 torque settings will have correct calibration done, let's say, automatically, simply because geometry of the metal parts used in this design is fixed and non-adjustable by the user.

While accuracy of break-over torque wrenches is sensative to how well the user can follow instructions, break-over wrenches, which by definition, are "real torque wrenches", are often used where compactness, accuracy and consistency are important. More info on advantages of break-over torque wrenches can be obtained by seach on the net.

Typical adjustable torque tool, which incorporates user-adjustable spring loading of torque limiting component and related scale with the pointer, which moves relative to the spring deflection, can only be calibrated to a single limiting torque setting within the scale. For example, if FAT wrench has a scale of 10 to 65 inch-lbs., FAT can only be calibrated, say, to 35 inch-lbs. to match the scale mark of 35 inch-lbs., or, in general, whatever torque setting the manufacturer decides to use as a reference for calibration. Accuracy of any other torque setting (excluding above mentioned 35 inch-lbs., used as an example only), in the range between 10 and 65 inch-lbs. will fully depend upon linear characteristics of the spring. It is recognized by engineers that spring load/deflection characteristics are not linear from 0 to 100% of the load, and that typical compression spring has acceptable linear characteristics between 20-25% and 75-80% of the load. Whatever is outside this range likely will not have the same consistent accuracy, say +/-4% or more common, +/-6%. Depending upon quality of the spring and overall quality of tool construction, a typical "real" adjustable torque wrench (or screwdriver like FAT) may show considerably larger deviation of limiting torque relative to the adjustment scale at the low and high ends of adjustment scale. Borka multi torque driver does not have this issue.

I do recognize that Borka is not a perfect torque tool design, although at the moment, it is the most compact and lightweight firearms oriented torque tool in the world, but as always with any design, there is certainly a room for improvement. Users feedback on SH provides very important info, which can be used for further improvement. Even learning just an overall level of satisfaction or dissatisfaction from Borka Tools users is a good measure of design success or failure, which is one of the metrics used in product development.

In conclusion, I'm sorry you got so tired of hearing about Borka, and I regret that relatively frequent mentioning of my torque driver in related threads seems to cause any kind of discomfort for you. Please let me know how I can help. Stop making and selling Borkas, may be?
 
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#50
I'm one of those people who have higher end Torque wrenches so when I say I use the Borka 99.9% there's a reason for it and not because I drank the Kool Aide.

The size of the Borka is a huge difference between it and say the Proto 2-36in/lb driver I have making it much easier to pack it along with me at matches in the Tab bag with all the accessories I need for any repairs out on the C.O.F.
Also the weight, The Proto comes in at just over 13 oz. while the Borka with the lever and handle are just over 4 oz.

Those reasons above plus the fact that I have torque ranges out to 72 in/lbs in one small package make it pretty hard to beat for working on anything rifle related.

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