Totally Stumped

[Autofire]

I am reloading using a Dillion XL 650, Redding Competition Dies, Loading 6.5 Creedmoor Rounds with Starline Brass, Hornady 140gr. ELD. Something I have done with this brass at least twice. The problem I am having is my bolt will not close on a loaded round. It will close with out a problem on the unloaded brass, but once it is loaded it will not close. I started out using my full size neck bushing die, gave up and went to just a full sizing die. Same result, I have no ideas.

 

[MtnCreek]

Are you crimping?

 

[Autofire]

No

 

[MtnCreek]

Does sized brass with no bullet chamber?

 

[whatsupdoc]

Take some brass and just run it through the sizing die only, then see if it chambers. It could also be that your brass is too long and you may be crimping it without wanting to.

 

[myronman3]

what is the OAL of the loaded round? if the case isnt bulged or deformed, your bullet needs to be seated deeper.

 

[myronman3]

Pay careful attention to the shoulder to ensure that isnt deformed. Other than that, it’s gotta be the bullet seat depth

 

[Autofire]

Does sized brass with no bullet chamber?

Yes

 

[MtnCreek]

Couple things. Put a caliper on your bullets. Case deforming when seating? As said, seating depth.

 

[Autofire]

what is the OAL of the loaded round? if the case isnt bulged or deformed, your bullet needs to be seated deeper.

I have one that does chamber that OAL is 2.88 the one that is not chambering is 2.87 that being said the one that does chamber the neck measurement is .296 the other is .297 I guess that could be the problem.

 

[MtnCreek]

You could mark the case up with a sharpie and look for scrub marks.

If the bullet is preventing closing, you'll see rifling marks on the bullet.

 

[myronman3]

measure the diameter of the case neck before you seat a bullet. See if it fits your chamber. Seat a bullet. Measure the same diameter of the case neck. Maybe too thick of a case neck? That’d be a first for me.....but possible.

 

[antithesis]

I have one that does chamber that OAL is 2.88 the one that is not chambering is 2.87 that being said the one that does chamber the neck measurement is .296 the other is .297 I guess that could be the problem.

OAL like others said. Better to measure OGIVE then OAL. This may be why your 2.88 chambers but not the 2.87.

 

[MtnCreek]

I'd back the seater out a turn and see what happens. Edit. Die, not stem.

 

[Autofire]

Pay careful attention to the shoulder to ensure that isnt deformed. Other than that, it’s gotta be the bullet seat depth

This is the thing that has me tied up in knots. I loaded 6 rounds before I chambered one (no excuses) the neck measurement of 5 of the 6 rounds is less than .294 which is below the SAMMI spec. I have one that is .297, All of the OAL are below the one that chambered and they exactly match my comparator measurement I always use.

 

[Autofire]

OAL like others said. Better to measure OGIVE then OAL. This may be why your 2.88 chambers but not the 2.87.

the Ogive is dead nuts on what I normally shoot.

 

[myronman3]

Ya need a pile of ninjas onsight to help see what you are not seeing. Backing the die out a smidge is a good idea. I have had where it caused the shoulder to deform just a tiny smidge bit....it almost imperceptable to see, but same shit.

 

[Autofire]

Ya need a pile of ninjas onsight to help see what you are not seeing. Backing the die out a smidge is a good idea. I have had where it caused the shoulder to deform just a tiny smidge bit....it almost imperceptable to see, but same shit.

Going to give it a try. I am going to shoot tomorrow I have a box of Petersen Brass I have not opened yet.

 

[myronman3]

And measure those bullets diameter while you are at it....

 

[ShtrRdy]

Have you measured the case length without the bullet??

 

[Autofire]

Here is what I have done. Measured the Brass Cases they are OK. Measured the Bullets they are OK. Switched from my Dillion to my single stage press. Using my graduated Shellholders I determined which shellholder was correct for the brass to fit properly. My rifle is an AIAT so the safety was in the neural position so easy enough to do. Loaded a round and same thing. Increase the depth of the bullet same thing. Made sure primers were seated correctly. Cleaned my rifle , same thing. Dug out my go/no go wilson 6.5 Creedmoor gage, everyone of the rounds fit perfectly.

God does not want me to shoot tomorrow. Therefore I am taking my other rifle and I am still going. If I don't come back tomorrow and add to this thread all of you will know I should have listen to God.

 

[myronman3]

One this is for sure...something aint right.

the necks too thick? have you loaded this brass before?

 

[nobbie333actual]

I have a similar problem but have not checked everything after powder throw stage
Do you place your bullets on the case by hand

 

[myronman3]

Looking at this logically....the sized brass fits.

step #2. Run brass through the powder charge station... empty the powder into a container and see if the brass still fits. If so....

step 3. Put the powder back in the case and seat the bullet. Check to see if it fits the chamber. Is so....

Step 4 crimp it. Check to see if she fits.

Your problem has to be somewhere in there. If you check it after each stage, it should help you figure out where the problem is. And as a side note, this is why i prefer the 550....easier to diagnose shit like this than it is on the 650 or square deal.

 

[myronman3]

And factory ammo fits? No issue there?

 

[myronman3]

How about brass length? Is the brass in need of a trim?

 

[ncr92]

Carbon ring?

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/carbon-ring-in-chamber-troat-area.113708/

 

[MtnCreek]

Just a thought. 650 powder measure could be deforming the shoulder. Make sure it's setup to just operate the measure, but not pushing down the case mouth. I'd about bet a dollar this is the problem.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

I'm looking forward to the outcome of this dilemma.

 

[Autofire]

Here is what my shooting buddy and I have concluded. First neither of us are engineers or metallurgist, however we have stayed at a Holiday Inn.

First off, the brass I am trying to reload has been fireformed in my chamber. I do anneal before every reloading. The neck wall thickness on my Starline Brass is .0165 which is thicker than Lapua, Peterson and AWG brass which all comes in at around .0145. We have concluded when I reload the shell it is push to the correct size so that I can chamber it ok without a bullet. When I load the bullet, it springs back and then some because of the thicker wall, thus causing the problem with the loaded round failure to chamber. I am going to reach out to Starline and see if they say I am full of crap. Otherwise I have nothing else I can think of. Thanks to everyone who commented you help me work through this problem.

 

[Bradu]

Here is what my shooting buddy and I have concluded. First neither of us are engineers or metallurgist, however we have stayed at a Holiday Inn.

First off, the brass I am trying to reload has been fireformed in my chamber. I do anneal before every reloading. The neck wall thickness on my Starline Brass is .0165 which is thicker than Lapua, Peterson and AWG brass which all comes in at around .0145. We have concluded when I reload the shell it is push to the correct size so that I can chamber it ok without a bullet. When I load the bullet, it springs back and then some because of the thicker wall, thus causing the problem with the loaded round failure to chamber. I am going to reach out to Starline and see if they say I am full of crap. Otherwise I have nothing else I can think of. Thanks to everyone who commented you help me work through this problem.

Take a fired round put of the rifle and measure the outside of your neck, then measure it on a loaded round. The fired round will give you your chamber dimensions so you can compare. No need to call starline since they don't know the specs on your chamber.

 

[MtnCreek]

@Autofire I don't believe you're on the right track.

A sized case fits, right? What are the next processes? Charge station? Powder cop die? Seating?

Remove brass buttons.
Size case, wipe off and confirm it chambers.
If it chambers, return to shell plate and charge. Dump powder in a measure pan and see if still chambers.
If it chambers, pour powder back in case, return to shell plate and seat bullet. See if it chambers.

That should at least identify which station is the problem.

 

[nso123]

Did the new Peterson brass do the same thing?

 

[Rlandry]

Adjusting your die is not a good idea. That will change the headspacing and if the sized cases chamber and eject easily, the headspacing is correct and you don't want to change that.
You need to know the CBTO measurement with the bullet you are using so you can determine the overall length. Measuring OAL from base to tip is not going to tell you much because the meplat of bullets can differ even from the same lot. This is easiest done using a Hornady comparator or similar measuring tool. That measurment will change with different bullets and you need to know what it is so that you are not jamming the bullet into the lands.
If you are flaring the cases in your powder station, stop doing that. A properly sized case that has been chamfered and deburred does not need to be flared to seat a bullet and it does not need to be crimped to hold it.
Measure the neck on a factory round. Maximum neck diameter is .2950". Those are made to minimum SAAMI spec so they will chamber in any round. Measure the neck thickness, double that, add the diameter of the bullet and the total should be the same or less than the factory round. If it's larger, then you have a case neck thickess or bullet diameter issue.
Finally, make sure you are using the correct size bullet, yes, it does happen. Size for the 6.5 is .2644".

 

[steve123]

Measure the diameter across the shoulder of a finished cartridge after it has gone through the press, vs a virgin case. If the shoulder is much wider than a virgin case it is being widened.

Two things are likely the cause of your problem.

#1 the seating die is down too far which crushes the shoulder "out". It's a simple fix, back it off a full revolution and redo the seating depth. This would explain why a sized case will chamber but not a loaded round - providing you've trimmed the cases to the correct length and the necks aren't so thick that there is no clearance between a loaded round and the neck area of the chamber.

#2 the problem is further exacerbated by over annealing which softens the top potion of the case causing it to crush even easier in the above scenario.

Heck, all the negative causes I mentioned, or any combination thereof, can inhibit chambering a round....

 

[Autofire]

Last post I did, I thought I had determined what the problem was. I thought it was a problem with Starline Brass, nope that was not it. Ok, I have measured everything can be measured, I’ve measured brass, bullets and loaded cartridges. I did head space comparisons and bullet seating depth comparison. have cleaned ever die I have.

Still had a problem. Then I decided to pull a bullet out of the loaded cartridge and put the brass into the rifle, it went right in. So, I am thinking it must be bullet seating depth problem even though I have put a couple of hundred rounds at my comparator depth of 2.20. So, I take the depth on one of the previously loaded rounds down to 2.16 and it does not go in. I pull the bullet dump the powder and try the brass it goes in. I put the bullet in at 2.16 without powder and it goes in. So, I take a previously loaded round dump the powder and seat the bullet at my normal 2.20 it goes in. OK so what the #^?! Is going on here. I take another previously loaded round and dump the powder and take it out 2.24 it barely goes in. Its not the seating depth. It’s the powder? I did just get a new A&D FX 120i perhaps it was putting out more than the 41.1 gn. I specified. Took one of those previously loaded rounds that would not chamber and pulled the bullet and measured the powder in my RCBS scale it was 41.1.

Could moisture gotten to the powder and cause it to expand? I did notice that I can normally shake the loaded cartridge and feel the powder move around I cannot do that with one of the rounds that would not chamber. It does not seem possible that powder being compressed would cause this issue.

 

[Rlandry]

Powder can not get wet unless you submerge the bullet. Powder can not expand. The burn rate can be affected by temperature, but that's it. You can't expand a cse by compressing the powder. Too many compressed loads out there.

Take a new, unfired, unsized case and see if it will chamber. It should. Then without sizing it, load it like you normally would and see if it will chamber.
If you know someone with a single stage or turret press you might try loading on a different press just to see if something isn't adjusted right on your Dillon.

 

[bax]

Late to the party but ... does this explain it?

Bullets seated too long and neck sized very tight. When you try to chamber, the bullet hits the throat before you can turn down the bolt handle - the neck is very tight so you can't manually force the bullet deeper into the case. You remove the round and pull the bullet and powder. Because you previously seated a bullet the neck is now bigger than it was the last time. You reseat the bullet without resizing the neck first. You try to chamber the round, the neck is larger so the bullet still hits the throat early but this time it slides deeper into the case so the round chambers.

If this is right, you should see strong throat marks on the ogive of the first bullet. If you used a different bullet for the second try, you should see throat marks but they should be less obvious.

Again, if this is right (no refunds, credit note only) then:

• you are sizing the neck down too far
• Measure the outside diameter of the case after sizing, but before seating then measure after seating the bullet. If the difference is substantial or if you are cleaning cases using a technique that makes the neck sticky, that would tend to support this theory
• it will be difficult to seat the bullet the first time
• it will be less difficult to seat the bullet the second time
• If you resize the case and then reseat the bullet, it will be like the first time

 

[antithesis]

Sounds to me like you are seating the bullet in to the empty case as you chamber it - easier to do after you pulled the bullet and put it back in.

What powder are you using? Have you put some marker on the bullets, neck and shoulder yet to see if it is grabbing?

Size an empty case. If you have bushings, do it with a smaller bushing to get 0.004 of tension. Seat a bullet in the empty, tight neck case. Start it a little long then keep seating it deeper (without pulling it and starting over) until it seats easily.

edit: was creating post when bax posted

 

[Snuby642]

Pay careful attention to the shoulder to ensure that isnt deformed. Other than that, it’s gotta be the bullet seat depth

Had a very similar issue once was corrected by backing off seating die a lot,
then running seating stem back down to desired coal.

This was with a Hornady seating die and would not work per thier setup directions
but did work after raising the die and lowering the stem more.

It was deforming the shoulder .

 

[Rlandry]

The problem I see with backing the seating die out is that it is needed to hold the bullet in a straight position as possible while the ram is being raised to the top. If the bullet is not held straight, you run the risk of inducing excessive runout. If you are loading for accuracy, that's not a good thing to do.
Misadjusting a component to mask a problem somewhere else is never a good practice unless you just enjoy risking getting stuck in some rabbit hole.
I would suggest breaking out the calipers and start comparing every measurement you can think of between one of your loads and a factory load that will chamber in your rifle. There have been some well meant replies and suggestions here, but the bottom line is that after 41 posts into this thread, you still don't know where to begin looking for your problem.
If you have readjusted/misadjusted your FL sizing die, you need to get it back right so your headspace is correct or you will really end up chasing your tail.

 

[lash]

The problem I see with backing the seating die out is that it is needed to hold the bullet in a straight position as possible while the ram is being raised to the top. If the bullet is not held straight, you run the risk of inducing excessive runout. If you are loading for accuracy, that's not a good thing to do.
Misadjusting a component to mask a problem somewhere else is never a good practice unless you just enjoy risking getting stuck in some rabbit hole.
I would suggest breaking out the calipers and start comparing every measurement you can think of between one of your loads and a factory load that will chamber in your rifle. There have been some well meant replies and suggestions here, but the bottom line is that after 41 posts into this thread, you still don't know where to begin looking for your problem.
If you have readjusted/misadjusted your FL sizing die, you need to get it back right so your headspace is correct or you will really end up chasing your tail.

You are missing the point in the advice to back the seating die off a bit. The seating die does one thing only, and that is to seat the bullet properly to the right depth every time.

What others are trying to say is that if the seating die body itself is set too low, it can impact the shoulder and deform it, resulting in the cartridge sticking in the chamber. The seating stem is what actually does the work of the seating die. So if you back off the seating die body a bit and then bring the seating stem back into position to properly seat the bullet, you will be setting the die and stem up properly.

 

[Rlandry]

The adjustment for most seating dies is to touch the shellplate with the ram up. He is using a Redding Competition die which sets up differently. So far everything points to that die or it's adjustment causeing the problem, but I don't know enough about the die to diagmose the problem. I do know it adjust different than the usual seating die, and the die guides the bullet in straight as it's moving toward the stem the same as the Forster Micrometer die does.

 

[steve123]

That floating sleeve has to stop somewhere eventually, you don't want it stopping hard against the inside of the die, because if it does the shoulder on the brass will give out before the steel in the die will, crushing it. It's the cartridge cases shoulder that pushes the sleeve up, so the sleeve with the case in it can go up into the die farther than the just stopping on the shellholder.

Backing the die off properly, like the instructions state to, will not affect runout, because the cartridge case is still fully supported in the floating sleeve.

Adjust that relationship foremost, then adjust the micrometer which is attached to the seating stem, for the desired seating depth.

 

[lash]

That floating sleeve has to stop somewhere eventually, you don't want it stopping hard against the inside of the die, because if it does the shoulder on the brass will give out before the steel in the die will, crushing it. It's the cartridge cases shoulder that pushes the sleeve up, so the sleeve with the case in it can go up into the die farther than the just stopping on the shellholder.

Backing the die off properly, like the instructions state to, will not affect runout, because the cartridge case is still fully supported in the floating sleeve.

Adjust that relationship foremost, then adjust the micrometer which is attached to the seating stem, for the desired seating depth.

What Steve said.

 

[sht4brnz]

Measure the neck diameter of a cartridge giving you issues at the center of the neck and at the mouth.
I had a similar issue with the mouth flaring. Not sure why, maybe I annealed too much? The remainder of the neck was the proper diameter.
I ran them through a crimp die lightly, removing the flare.

 

[Rlandry]

Since the Competition die supports the case the entire time, I'm wondering if flaring the cases are affecting how the die is allowing, or not, the case to go up into the die. It's possible keeping the case from going all the way up, which would account for seating long, and after that the case would be crimped as usual only with the longer seated bullet.
I don't understand why the OP is flaring and crimping. If a bottleneck case is sized correctly, chamfered and deburred, you should not have to flare to seat the bullet, and neck tension should be enough to hold the bullet in the case. I've never had to flare/crimp a bottleneck cartridge.
I just think all of his issues are seating and crimping related

 

[lash]

Since the Competition die supports the case the entire time, I'm wondering if flaring the cases are affecting how the die is allowing, or not, the case to go up into the die. It's possible keeping the case from going all the way up, which would account for seating long, and after that the case would be crimped as usual only with the longer seated bullet.
I don't understand why the OP is flaring and crimping. If a bottleneck case is sized correctly, chamfered and deburred, you should not have to flare to seat the bullet, and neck tension should be enough to hold the bullet in the case. I've never had to flare/crimp a bottleneck cartridge.
I just think all of his issues are seating and crimping related

I think that I agree. Precision rifle rounds that I load get no crimp at all, especially for bolt rifle. Just about 0.002” of neck tension is all. In fact, I once had a chambering issues and was trying to work it out. I discovered that this specific chamber had been held to minimum SAAMI specs by the smith, like he was used to doing for fine benchrest rifles. Problem is, this was a comp gun that needed to feed everything all of the time. Slight variations in neck thickness and in ID/OD chamfering were causing some rounds to not chamber. I had him touch it up and bring the chamber to the middle of the spec and all my feeding problems went away.

In addition, I always lightly ID and OD chamfer my case necks. It helps to not only make them feed and size better, but I believe that is also why I only rarely have to trim brass length, even though I’m shooting a standard .260 Rem. Firing brass moves material forward towards the neck area and I’ve seen it thicken the necks a bit. All it takes is a very small amount of thickening to make a case jam into the neck part of the chamber.

Well, that’s my story anyway, and I’m sticking to it.

 

[Autofire]

After spending the weekend examining almost everything everyone mentioned in this thread, I felt like I had been chasing my tail. Today, I came home and cleaned off my reloading bench I took all of the cartridges that I put together that I've been messing with apart put them back in their respective cases close it up. I came upstairs and watched every reloading video I have ever watched, went back downstairs took all of my dies apart cleaned them made sure they were assembled correctly and making sure the bushings were correct.

So I went back to my single stage press and started from the very beginning with some newly cleaned AWG brass that had been shot twice and not annealed. I went through the setting of headspace using Redding’s competition Shellholder set. The one thing I did different that I had not done this past weekend is when I got to the .004 shell holder which felt good just a tiny bit of tension, I took it one more step to the .002 shellholder which felt like there was nothing in the chamber with just the brass. Which, I have always thought was too far. SUDDENLY, I had no problems, the reloaded rounds chambered fine. I took my Starline brass that I could not make work using the same setup I had just used with no problems. So apparently it was a head space problem. Except, I went back to the .004 shell holder that I normally use, when I am on my single stage and it works also, which it did not this weekend. So I do not know why I had this problem, but apparently it is fixed. Tomorrow night I will try to move back to my Dillion 650 and see what happens.

Once again thank-you everyone for your advice.

 

[BearNaked]

Maybe your single stage and your 650 are off from each other by a few thousandths which would cause the headspace to be off. I would make sure to measure your headspace on the platform you are going to use to load the ammo. Basically, everything that changes "CAN" cause variances in your measurements. Not all the time but I can.

My opinion, the easiest way to have solved this problem would have been to use a sharpie and color the whole round that wont chamber, bullet included, then chamber it as far as it will go then add a smidge of pressure so it will leave a mark on the case/bullet. that will tell you exactly where the issue lies. if no mark shows up, add a little more pressure and do this repeatedly until something shows up. I have been down the rabbit hole like this before and this method showed me where to start looking.

A $2 sharpie is your friend and the easiest to spot chamber/bullet issues in your rifle. at least with me it has.