Trackingpoint firearms are pretty dumb!!

B

Bevan

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 3, 2009
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#1
So someone linked this and I was bored shitless and clicked it


TrackingPoint 2013 -- Extreme Distance Hunting - YouTube



First shot, 00:46, Kudu at 698 yards with a .338LM AIAX, note the impact location





Next shot, 01:42, Zebra at 540 yards, note that it is bleeding from a gutshot before the bullet impact, quite obvious on .25x playback speed




Awful shooting position, recoil control and trigger control throughout. Pro-tip guys: Don't use terrible footage of you gut shooting things to hock your overpriced snake-oil bullshit gadgetry that is supposed to compensate for bad marksmanship! Clearly they're in need of some help
 
#2
Wow that is complete bulls*** , these guys need to learn how to humanely take down an animal, especially when hunting trophy game like that. I am appalled with this video, especially that shot on the zebra. If you aren't 100% confident you can make a CLEAN kill at a certain distance, don't take the shot.
 
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#3
Some people have no regard for the suffering they inflict on creatures as they bungle the task of shooting. All they care about is stoking their ego and pride. Karma will hopefully even the score at some point.
 
#4
I feel that the point here is that they're retarded enough to put this shit in their official promo video, where they're gut-shooting things with their stupid gimmick gadget at ranges where a .338LM ought to be a lasergun
 
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#8
I think it's bull! The shooter becomes a loader that's all. If you can't shoot and estimate wind and all other variables, go buy a book and read about marksmanship. just my 2 cents. No need for that zillion dollars gadget. And here, north of the border, we don't have zebras! lol
 
#10
The amount of PR money these guys have amazes me. I thought that their setup at SHOT was over the top but that video must have cost a fortune to produce in addition to the cost of the travel, guide, permits and such for the hunt. Say what you want about the downright terrible shooting form and support as well as poor product performance as evidenced by clearly poor shot placement. I doubt their target demographic notices this anyway. Just look at the production value of the thing. Can you ever remember a firearms promo video that looked as well put together at this one. Each kill must have taken a full day to film as carefully as it was scripted and with all the equipment necessary to make those overhead shots. The editing was at least as good again as the filming. First rate stuff like this is not cheap.

Also, take a look at the board members on the company site. Big fish, I'll bet they didn't come cheap either whether in terms of equity stake or up front compensation. I can't recal a product that I have encountered in the shooting industry that I expect has as much money in it from development to PR as this product. They must be expecting some big .gov contracts because even at $22k a piece I really can't see that there is enough demand to pay for this incredible about of investment and hype. Meanwhile, at SHOT Trijicon debuts what amounts to basically the same tech with a bit more in the way capability as well as user control and not a peep.

I don't think it will as succeed given the amazing amount of capital and limited market but I said that about the ipod and that went bananas. Either way, I'm getting well more than the moneys worth I didn't pay watching the whole thing play out.
 
#15
BigJimFish said:
The amount of PR money these guys have amazes me. I thought that their setup at SHOT was over the top but that video must have cost a fortune to produce in addition to the cost of the travel, guide, permits and such for the hunt. Say what you want about the downright terrible shooting form and support as well as poor product performance as evidenced by clearly poor shot placement. I doubt their target demographic notices this anyway. Just look at the production value of the thing. Can you ever remember a firearms promo video that looked as well put together at this one. Each kill must have taken a full day to film as carefully as it was scripted and with all the equipment necessary to make those overhead shots. The editing was at least as good again as the filming. First rate stuff like this is not cheap.

Also, take a look at the board members on the company site. Big fish, I'll bet they didn't come cheap either whether in terms of equity stake or up front compensation. I can't recal a product that I have encountered in the shooting industry that I expect has as much money in it from development to PR as this product. They must be expecting some big .gov contracts because even at $22k a piece I really can't see that there is enough demand to pay for this incredible about of investment and hype. Meanwhile, at SHOT Trijicon debuts what amounts to basically the same tech with a bit more in the way capability as well as user control and not a peep.

I don't think it will as succeed given the amazing amount of capital and limited market but I said that about the ipod and that went bananas. Either way, I'm getting well more than the moneys worth I didn't pay watching the whole thing play out.
Click to expand...

No doubt. You have to figure the cost of that video approaches $100k or more if you include travel expenses. You have to assume that the primary market is governments. I just can't see civilians wanting such a device, let alone paying much for one. It destroys the soul of hunting, and totally defeats the purpose of target shooting. Such technology does not age well and can't be counted on without company support, so that leaves you with a system of dubious utility except for people who can go out and deploy it now - in other words, the military. And with a little more development, I could see it becoming useful there. Especially if someone figures out how to measure down range wind worth a damn, which is the glaring hole in the system. It obviously cannot reduce training requirements down to nothing, as demonstrated by that video, but it certainly gets you part of the way.
 
#18
Like most here, I think the idea is awesome, but doesn't come close to satisfying the reasons that I shoot/hunt. When it comes to hunting, I prefer to be able to smell what I am about to kill. When it comes to banging steel or punching paper, I prefer to (try to) read the wind and focus on my personal abilities to execute a shot.

I will however not say that it "destroys the soul" of hunting or target shooting. There are many gadgets that have come along that have changed the game, from trail cams to range finders/ mobile weather stations/ ballistic computers that have made a hunters goal easier to attain.

Also, we are talking about a .338 lapua. In 25 MPH 90 degree wind (which we can clearly see they aren't facing in the video) we are talking a 3 mil hold at 1k yards. Clearly, you can still pull shots with this system if you don't execute sound shooting fundamentals. If this joker was taking these shot without this system, we would see much more horrific results, but fortunately for the prey, it decreased the margin of error enough that it still died quickly.

All this said, I will never be purchasing this item regardless of how much the price drops over the years, but if people with deep pockets who are hell bent on taking game at extended ranges without being willing to put in the time to become a true marksman, I prefer to see them use a system like this so I don't have to stumble across an animal that was never recovered by someone who took a shot they couldn't execute. This is just my .02 and I am not trying to start a fight, nor will I oblige someone who is. Human nature is to push our ability, often beyond what it is capable, and while we can preach ethics it regularly falls on deaf ears.
 
#19
The wind is the only thing that will make you miss a shot. I've talked to these guys in detail about the system. The trigger only breaks when the shot can be made including your wind hold that's been put in by the shooter.
 
#20
I'm not sure I completely understand the system. It seems like the system fires when it's is happy - not the shooter - within constraints, I guess. The game warden might not be understanding when you tell him about when the cow walks in front of the bull just a fraction before the system goes hot. "Well I know I have an antler-only tag, but my rifle took control and did it. It wan't me!"
 
#21
jipper74 said:
I'm not sure I completely understand the system. It seems like the system fires when it's is happy - not the shooter - within constraints, I guess. The game warden might not be understanding when you tell him about when the cow walks in front of the bull just a fraction before the system goes hot. "Well I know I have an antler-only tag, but my rifle took control and did it. It wan't me!"
Click to expand...


If that happens it would not fire. That could very well happen to a shooter with out this system. I'm on mobile, but ill try and give a better understanding of how it works. They invited me down to try it out. I need to follow up with them.
 
#22
It looks like you have to have two things for it to fire - a pressed trigger and alignment with the tag. It's unclear what the tag is - it could be as simple as a calculated point in space or they could add computer vision to verify that it has not been obscured - if the image surrounding the tag were to change substantially, it could call off the shot. With enough time in development, the only thing missing from the system is wind. Everything else can be covered with enough work (and money), at least to a high degree. Judging by that video, it looks like they have more work to do beyond just wind effects.
 
#23
Truck drivers hate the automated (not autoMATIC) semi truck transmissions.

Not because they don't work, but because they obsolete the skill/experience of the trucker.
 
#24
So, I'm speaking from memory here, but this is the deal w/ these rifles.

1. Rifle is built by Surgeon, at the time in 2 calibers. 300 min mag, and .338 LM

2. Rifles come w/ 200 rounds of loaded ammunition, this load was built, and doped with this rifle.

3. The program built into the scope is built off the doped load that comes w/ the ammo. You can buy more of this form TP. It's the only ammo that's "guaranteed"(my words here) to work with the system.

4. You use the scope to "Tag" your target, after you've tagged it, you can release the tag button and the "tag" will stay with the object you've tagged as long as it stays in, or pretty close to being in your scope. Right after you tag it, you'll notice the cross hairs jump. This is of course because it's making the adjustment for you to come up on. It takes in the angle, da, etc etc.

5. On top you'll have a wind dial, that works like a zoom button on a video camera. You give the wind conditions that you feel are correct for the distance you want to shoot. This TP gives you the range of course.

6. Now you are ready to fire. If you pull the trigger, before you're in the exact right place you'll just get resistance on the trigger. It has a solenoid in that works with the program to block it until you're in the correct spot. When I spoke with them, they said it take in account the shooter swaying, and jerking. So when the scope is placed on the tag in the solenoid will release and the rifle will fire.
Of course after you pull the trigger, and it fires, anything else that happens is obviously out of the shooters control.

It can't sway the bullet if the wind changes while it's headed down range, or if the animal moves. It's not a magic system, but it's more than a Burris eliminator on steroids.

I have no dog in this fight, but it's silly to argue about it if the details are not laid out for everyone to see.

I can't speak to the shots on film other than the animals look to have dropped right there. I don't work for this company, or have any affiliation with them, I was just able to speak with them for about 30 min at the DSC.
 
#25
I'm still confused on doping the wind with this thing.

Is it solely up to the shooter to estimate wind and "dial" it?

Or, does TP provide an initial estimate that can be "edited" by the shooter?

I assume wind MUST be "dialed"...no holding off....?
 
#26
So let me get this right: for 22k, you can get a rifle that auto-dopes for range (the easy part, especially with a LRF), and you still need to input wind, which you can't do holdover for as conditions change because it prevents you from pulling the trigger if you don't have the target centered. That, and you are FORCED to use their ammo/dope? No thanks.
 
#28
At long range, reading wind becomes as much an art as a science. There may be several changes in velocity (speed and direction) between you and the target. Without real data from downrange along the bullets path, serious marksmen will still be the only ones capable of reliable first-round hits, because the best remote wind reading technology in the world today is still the mk1 eyeball
 
#31
usafabrad said:
So let me get this right: for 22k, you can get a rifle that auto-dopes for range (the easy part, especially with a LRF), and you still need to input wind, which you can't do holdover for as conditions change because it prevents you from pulling the trigger if you don't have the target centered. That, and you are FORCED to use their ammo/dope? No thanks.
Click to expand...


No one said you're forced to use it, but they are not going to be responsible for your reloads working w/ their software. If you want to duplicate the load, there is nothing stoping you.

Surgeon Rifle in .338 costs what? $6500 all the goodies. In that price I'll include the bipod.
iPad mini $400
Good scope , $1,500-$3,500
Good LRF that can range these distances accurately $800-$1500
200 rounds of hand loaded .338 $1,400 according to brownells.
Kestrel w/ Horus $700
Pelican Case $250
Custom Fitting the case $100+
Sling $75



Then what's the cost for someone to build a load for your rifle, mount your scope, zero it, and build your dope out to 1,200 yards?


I mean you're still paying more for a Tracking Point, but it's not like it's out of this world priced.

It's not meant for everyone, me included, but I'm not going to be closed minded about the platform. I'm not implying that you are btw.
 
#32
dieselgeek said:
No one said you're forced to use it, but they are not going to be responsible for your reloads working w/ their software. If you want to duplicate the load, there is nothing stoping you.

Surgeon Rifle in .338 costs what? $6500 all the goodies. In that price I'll include the bipod.
iPad mini $400
Good scope , $1,500-$3,500
Good LRF that can range these distances accurately $800-$1500
200 rounds of hand loaded .338 $1,400 according to brownells.
Kestrel w/ Horus $700
Pelican Case $250
Custom Fitting the case $100+
Sling $75



Then what's the cost for someone to build a load for your rifle, mount your scope, zero it, and build your dope out to 1,200 yards?


I mean you're still paying more for a Tracking Point, but it's not like it's out of this world priced.

It's not meant for everyone, me included, but I'm not going to be closed minded about the platform. I'm not implying that you are btw.
Click to expand...

Sorry I but I wouldn't pay that much for ANY of the things you just mentioned, if I would buy them at all. An iPad mini? Seriously? So you can post your kills to Facebook? You're right it's not meant for everyone, it's just that I don't think I'm going to like the people it's meant for very much.
 
#33
usafabrad said:
Sorry I but I wouldn't pay that much for ANY of the things you just mentioned, if I would buy them at all. An iPad mini? Seriously? So you can post your kills to Facebook? You're right it's not meant for everyone, it's just that I don't think I'm going to like the people it's meant for very much.
Click to expand...


The mini is not just to post your kills to facebook. It gives you control of things in the software, records all of your data, and can be used as a live preview for anyone else that wants to see.

"it's just that I don't think I'm going to like the people it's meant for very much"

Well, that's a funny way to judge someone.


To each his own I guess.
 
#34
dieselgeek said:
Pretty sure the first shot is the mist from the exit, and the animal is DRT, Zebra also drops....
Click to expand...


Whether it's the mist from the exit or not, it's still in the arse! and the zebra drops but is clearly bleeding from a gutshot before the impact of the bullet on film! Both animals drop but you'll note that they cut away immediately!
 
#35
I think that if was nothing more than an integrated sensor/ballistic solver, I would probably like it ALOT more. The fact that it attempts to "guide" the shooter, and appears to not be adjustable for MV/BC/Drag model makes me take it much less seriously. The implications and potential of the tech are amazing, but by shoving the ammo/rifle combination down the consumer's throat makes it seem like this isnt intended to advance the field, but just to cater to the crowd with more money and time than sense.

This feels like the ultimate mid-life crisis rifle.
 
#36
usafabrad said:
I think that if was nothing more than an integrated sensor/ballistic solver, I would probably like it ALOT more. The fact that it attempts to "guide" the shooter, and appears to not be adjustable for MV/BC/Drag model makes me take it much less seriously. The implications and potential of the tech are amazing, but by shoving the ammo/rifle combination down the consumer's throat makes it seem like this isnt intended to advance the field, but just to cater to the crowd with more money and time than sense.

This feels like the ultimate mid-life crisis rifle.
Click to expand...


Well whip out that credit card.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Burris-Eliminator-III-Ballistic-LaserScope/1383194.uts
 
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#38
Bet we see a bunch of similar equipment in the very near future.....only better. Drones in the air employing lethal force; drones on the ground is the next step. A run of the mill surveillance system turns into an autonomous recon/sniper system with oversight occurring anyplace a data link can be utilized. These tools aren't marketed toward hunters.......looks more towards law enforcement with some liability issues being mitigated with digital re-production.
 
#41
The animals I saw seemed to drop pretty quickly, or only run just a short way. Hey, I've shot white-tail deer and even with a heart shot, I've still had deer run 50 - 75 yards before they drop. No, this isn't something I'm up for, and I don't see this as a hunting rig, but the video did impress me somewhat. Again, not that I'd ever even be able to afford an African big-game safari, but still, I also don't think I'd ever have cause to shoot game at 1103 yards away either. The fact they happen to be shooting game, to me, just served to underscore the not-so-hidden implication that it can be used by gov'ts and the military on human game, too. At $22k, they may be the only ones who can afford such a system anyways. Cool melding of technology, IMO, but I can't see ME ever owning one.
 
#42
damoncali said:
According to the website, you must dial in the wind yourself. And yes, you must dial it, or it can't line up the tag and fire. Kind of a big problem. I don't think anyone has figured out how to measure wind down range reliably yet.
Click to expand...

I read an article about a year ago about the Israelis development of a laser that takes wind readings, way down range. I believe it could even average the wind throughout the distance, etc. It was a news article, not a gun article or internet post. I wouldn't be surprised if it's already incorporated into a system similar to this one that we don't know about yet.
 
#44
Still no coffee holder on it. Exactly how does this system compensate for shooter position and guys that anticipate and/or pull the shot? It's still mechnical which means between the time the signal is sent to release the firing pin to when the bullet exits the muzzle the shooter could easily be off. The people buying these thinking they can get on the trigger and start slinging rounds downrange are not likely to know even the most basic fundamentals like getting straight behind and IMO are looking for the "easy" shot and frankly another over-priced toy.
 
#45
Lowlight said:
They can do wind with a laser, there are several units around with wind capabilities.

At SHOT there was the RULR clone with wind built in. Torrey Pines Logic
Venom


Also the Tracking point, the wind toggles are backwards making it a bigger pain.
Click to expand...

Cool. Does anyone know how well these work? They cold be pretty crappy and still work better than eyeballs.
 
#46
_Nick_ said:
Still no coffee holder on it. Exactly how does this system compensate for shooter position and guys that anticipate and/or pull the shot? It's still mechnical which means between the time the signal is sent to release the firing pin to when the bullet exits the muzzle the shooter could easily be off. The people buying these thinking they can get on the trigger and start slinging rounds downrange are not likely to know even the most basic fundamentals like getting straight behind and IMO are looking for the "easy" shot and frankly another over-priced toy.
Click to expand...

The guys shooting it in the video have terrible shooting fundamentals.
 
#48
While I agree with the OP that the fundamentals aren't there in a lot of those shots. Maybe that was the intention. To show that a regular joe could use this rifle to take out game at a lot of distances. You can't argue with that, its possible. As for the ethical kills. All of those animals look like they won't require follow up shots. If everyone gets a kill everytime, first time then I'm proud of you. I've never had the oppurtunity to hunt, but I can't imagine its that easy. This platform, for those with the coin, can have the shooting part put on "easy" mode.
 
#50
This rifle isn't for most of us. There is some cool technology. Tagging and trigger control would worry a bit especially for a heard situation. I have nothing against this company, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't show the dang-ly front leg shot, if there was one, in their marketing video. DRT in this vid doesn't mean anything one way or the other. Now once independent reviews come out ... I still won't buy it. Is $22K for crying out loud!
 
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