trainer

[canuck4570]

my trainer is my TRG22 in 308
I shoot cast bullets
180 grain over 10 gr of Trail Boss, no gaz check
get 1090 fps and very accurate to 200 yards I say 200 yards because that the maximum at our range wish I had longer shooting range
its come out cheaper than good 22lr amo
lots of fun et gets you practice with your rifle
any of you do this?

 

[J_Roger]

Re: trainer

.308 @ 1090fps? And cheaper than good .22 ammo? I'm impressed. Got any pics?

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J_Roger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.308 @ 1090fps? And cheaper than good .22 ammo? I'm impressed. Got any pics? </div></div>
Roger
here are some pics of the RCBS 180gr cast bullets
and a loaded round
these 180gr bullet have gaz check for the reason that I shot all the non GC bullets
these GC bullets are shot at 1750 fps with a charge of 18gr of Aliant 2400
as said the non GC are shot with 10 gr of Trail Boss
both are super accurate
I load them on my Hornady Lock N load
make a lot in short time
the nice thing about it you are using the same rifle and with these small charge and velocity
lead bullet don't wear the barrel and you shoot many round and the barrel stay's luke warm only
and you clean about every 500 rounds
also a pics of my TRG22

 

[rgrwilcox]

Re: trainer

How accurate?
Are either of you using any kind of filler?

 

[clodhopper]

Re: trainer

Having been a bullet caster for years I'm stuck in rut If I shoot cast in a rifle then it is cast bullets exclusively.
Are you getting any greif changing back and forth between jacketed and lead?
Also my loads have beeen about 65-80% the weight normally used
in a cartridge with powders like 4895 or 4064 and velocities in the 17-1800 fps range.
Accuracy acheived is more than 1 MOA but close at 100 yards.
My 35 whelen spits 200 grain gaschecked flat points right at 1900 FPS and kills whitetails quite efficently.
1 1/2 MOA is usefull in 150 yards.
With the cost of gaschecks, 40 grains of powder and a primer,
thumpers for the Whelen run about 17 cents a round.
Another load for the whelen is a 200 grain roundnose plainbase (no gascheck) 16 grains of a well known magnum pistol powder with velocities about 1350, cost on those around 8 cents a round.
These cost calculations assume free lead and no compensation for time to prepare lead for casting, the casting, sizeing or lubeing the bullets.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rgrwilcox</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How accurate?
Are either of you using any kind of filler? </div></div>
the 2 powder mentioned are not position sensitive so no filler used
and filler are dangerous to use you have a chance to ring your chamber
has mentioned above very accurate.....

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having been a bullet caster for years I'm stuck in rut If I shoot cast in a rifle then it is cast bullets exclusively.
Are you getting any greif changing back and forth between jacketed and lead?
Also my loads have beeen about 65-80% the weight normally used
in a cartridge with powders like 4895 or 4064 and velocities in the 17-1800 fps range.
Accuracy acheived is more than 1 MOA but close at 100 yards.
My 35 whelen spits 200 grain gaschecked flat points right at 1900 FPS and kills whitetails quite efficently.
1 1/2 MOA is usefull in 150 yards.
With the cost of gaschecks, 40 grains of powder and a primer,
thumpers for the Whelen run about 17 cents a round.
Another load for the whelen is a 200 grain roundnose plainbase (no gascheck) 16 grains of a well known magnum pistol powder with velocities about 1350, cost on those around 8 cents a round.
These cost calculations assume free lead and no compensation for time to prepare lead for casting, the casting, sizeing or lubeing the bullets.
</div></div>
no problem in changing back and forth with jacket and lead
has long has you cleaned your barrel clean of all copper
and when shooting lead bullet you mai shoot without cleaning jacketed bullet
on the load shooting trail bos you can not double load this powder was develop specially for reduce load its very volumetric and meters good in powder measure
I use bullet without Gaz check with this load at 1090 fps and that is 2 cents for primer and 3 to 4 cents for powder so there you have a round that cost you $,06 cents .....
if you had 4 for the gaz check it come 10 for a round stil in cheap braket
lead well I pick it up in garage wheel weight
so if you had a 2 cent more well you are up to 12
time well its a hoby and I have a 4 cavity mold that goes fast in making bullets
with 10 gr of powder you make 700 round
or 388 for the faster load with 18 gr of 2400
and the satisfaction of practicing with the same rifle is great
whit the 1750 fps load I shoot up to 600 yards with no problem but that does not happen to often because the range is a 3 hours drive....

 

[clodhopper]

Re: trainer

I have not tried trail boss, but have read and heard about the light weight/large volume features.
The cowboy action shooters just love it for their light loads and big targets at close range.
You are the first I have heard to report good accuracy.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not tried trail boss, but have read and heard about the light weight/large volume features.
The cowboy action shooters just love it for their light loads and big targets at close range.
You are the first I have heard to report good accuracy. </div></div>
yes good accuracy
and the Aliant 2400 is just outstanding
up to 200 yards beleive me its almous like shooting 175 smk
often I get - 1 inche
most of all no barrel wear and no barrel heating up

 

[rgrwilcox]

Re: trainer

Canuck 4570
Do you have any special procedures or equipment you use for bullet seating cast bullets in your 308? Can you just seat them like any jacketed bullet?

Thanks

 

[TimK]

Re: trainer

Brilliant idea. I'd been toying with the idea of shooting lead but couldn't quite figure out a good reason. It didn't occur to me the cost could be so low.

I just put a .22 trainer together so I probably won't pursue this idea, but it's a good one. The only flaw I can see in the concept for me personally is the time to reload. I wanted to spend less time loading and less money, and this gets 1/2 of that done. If loading time weren't as important (if I didn't have a 2 year old), this is a great plan.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rgrwilcox</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Canuck 4570
Do you have any special procedures or equipment you use for bullet seating cast bullets in your 308? Can you just seat them like any jacketed bullet?

Thanks </div></div>
rgrwilcox
when preparing your case you need to open up the neck like a trumpet (just a bit) this to keep the top on the case neck from shaving the lead bullet when doing the seating operation after this you need a tapper crimp from redding to push back this trumpet
for the seating die use RCBS they are made more loosely then the Redding this permit the trumpet going in the die to seat the bullet you adjust your seating stem at its lowest point
the mold I have is the RCBS 180 gr and if you look at the picture above you will see you seat it until you hide the grease groove
my OAL is 2.655
round feed easily in my TRG

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brilliant idea. I'd been toying with the idea of shooting lead but couldn't quite figure out a good reason. It didn't occur to me the cost could be so low.

I just put a .22 trainer together so I probably won't pursue this idea, but it's a good one. The only flaw I can see in the concept for me personally is the time to reload. I wanted to spend less time loading and less money, and this gets 1/2 of that done. If loading time weren't as important (if I didn't have a 2 year old), this is a great plan.
tim K
you are correct on this
time to cast, lube put on the gaz check and the expense to get set up
but the set up pay itself in the first year easily
I know what you mean when you have a 2 year old
when I had mine at this age it did not let me a lot of time to shoot 3 position international competion.....

</div></div>

 

[rgrwilcox]

Re: trainer

What die do you use to open the case mouth up?

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rgrwilcox</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What die do you use to open the case mouth up? </div></div>

I use a RCBS neck expander die for rifle lead cast bulles
the die has a body and a expander plug, they are sold separately
the plug come in different diameter, usually a cast bullet in the 30 caliber will be seized in the lube seizer 1 to 2 thousand of a inche bigger ex: .309 or .310
if the .309 bullet is used a plug of .307 would be appropriate
as you can see the expander plug as a straight part .309 and than it flares up
you adjust this expander stem down to open the case neck and just enough to flare the case mouth
as said above after seating your bullet you use the Redding tapper crimp die to squeeze back the trumpet....

 

[clodhopper]

Re: trainer

Lyman makes a similar die they call the "M" die, that I use.
And Lee makes a die they call the universal neck expand which I have not tried. But highly suspicious of it's value because unlike the RCBS and Lyman it does not have the "plug" just the tapered belling punch.
Most standard sizeing dies leave the neck a bit tight for lead bullets so the RCBS and Lyman types expand the neck ID just a bit and also bell the case mouth.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lyman makes a similar die they call the "M" die, that I use.
And Lee makes a die they call the universal neck expand which I have not tried. But highly suspicious of it's value because unlike the RCBS and Lyman it does not have the "plug" just the tapered belling punch.
Most standard sizeing dies leave the neck a bit tight for lead bullets so the RCBS and Lyman types expand the neck ID just a bit and also bell the case mouth.
</div></div>
the lyman die is a 2 step expander and the biggest step is .002 larger than .308 and the smallest is .002 smaller than the diameter of a 308 bullets just enough to grip the bullet with the correct tension it works beautifully to start jacketed bullet
but since a cast bullet is usually .001 to .002 larger than .308 the lyman does not quite flare the case mouth enough so it wont shave some lead
and the lyman does not offer different size because they are made more for jacketed bullet yes it does have a 3 steps that you could use as clodhopper must be using but to me it does not work as well as the RCBS which are made specially for cast bulles
on the other hand the RCBS is flared like a funnel so you are able to flare the case mouth until you see no more shaving on the bullet if the case neck is .330 than you should flare about you read .340

 

[clodhopper]

Re: trainer

I have not tried the RCBS neck expand dies, but have not had trouble adjusting the Lyman "M" die to bell enough to not shave lead.
It is possible to over-bell case necks with the "M" die.
RCBS has a much better reputation for customer service than Lyman, that by itself enough reason to buy RCBS tools.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not tried the RCBS neck expand dies, but have not had trouble adjusting the Lyman "M" die to bell enough to not shave lead.
It is possible to over-bell case necks with the "M" die.
RCBS has a much better reputation for customer service than Lyman, that by itself enough reason to buy RCBS tools.
</div></div>
yes you are correct the lyman can be adjusted for cast has long has your bullet is not over .309 or so if you have one that is .310 to better fit your chamber throath you will shave some lead
but the section that open the case neck on the lyman is .306 and does not offer any alternative like the RCBS that you can order in different expansion size
so to keep only .002 of neck tension on a .310 bullet or even a .309 you will have to musch tension and run a chance to squeeze that bullet ruining accuracy
the advantage of choosing a different expansion size is a big + for the RCBS
I will admit that if lyman would offer this option I would go for lyman since its a step expansion die and making seating bullet on a progressive is easier.....

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: trainer

Look, I admire the ingenuity and dedication displayed here, but basically; it's primarily an exercise in reinventing the wheel.

.22LR is about as simple and inexpensive a means one can find to shoot cast lead. To shoot practically anything, in fact; and with very few significant drawbacks, as training goes.

Shooting cast lead is a very practical and admirable challenge; but as a training implement, it's a lot more complex than training needs to be. Buy, chamber, shoot; additional steps rapidly become superfluous.

Greg

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

one thing that I able to do that 22 trainer can not do
with a load of Aliant 2400 (20 gr)
I able with the set up on my TRG22 to shoot at the Cannaught in Ottawa up to 900 meters
shoot all day, pratice wind dopping
etc and no heating barrel and little wear on it its like shooting a 1500 yards and that at a fraction of the cost of regular ammo
yes its a bit more work but once you get the hang of casting and so on its very easy to turn up hundreds of rounds....

 

[clodhopper]

Re: trainer

Greg,
Thanks for keeping an eye on us, this forum would not be so pleasent without you and the other moderaters.
But let's consider reinventing the wheel.
What did the guys fooling around with wheels hear when they mounted the first tire on a wheel? How about the first rubber tire? Wheel bearing? punematic tire? lug nuts?
None of us can forsee the inovations yet to come in wheels, bullets, and many other technologies.
But all the inovations we all enjoy came about because some guys just had to reinvent the wheel.

 

[ba_50]

Re: trainer

I agree with Grag L. that you can't beat a 22 LR.

Casting bullets is a lot of tedious work, some like it and some like me, hate it.

Cleaning the impurities out of the lead, finding lead or wheelweights at a reasonable price, trying to get "perfect casts", weighing bullets, lubing, sizing, avoiding lead poisoning, cost of equipment, trying different bullet diameters time involved, etc. wasn't fun for me. Some people like it.

If you know someone who does it, maybe they will let you try it before you dive into it.

I'll take the .22 anyday based on my experience with casting bullets.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: trainer

Interesting that folks think I'm a Moderator. I was back when the site was getting started, but not for nearly a decade now. I just speak my mind. A little bit of bark, maybe; but no bite.

Greg

 

[clodhopper]

Re: trainer

BA 50 I had a wonderful experience on first cast bullet attempt.
quite a few dissapointments since. But enjoy unraveling the resons why help keep me out of trouble.
Greg don't stop doing what you do, it's good for all of us stop and think on another level.
That being said I'm off to the range to shoot some .22 longrifle
Which I will never replace with cast bullet centerfire, do to reasons stated in this thread.
And a couple hundred 38 special loads the result of thinking I had solved a cast bullet diameter problem for a specific pistol.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

OK guys
me to back to regular wheels
going to take my 22lr trainer and shoot a couple of rounds

 

[clodhopper]

Re: trainer

Where's the skis?

 

[kytrapper]

Re: trainer

tag- great looking load

 

[canuck4570]

Re: trainer

guys since I have your attention
my stock the colour stinks
I would like to paint it green with black raised spider web like the one on CZ550 kevlar
and the remington compact tactical that has a Bel and Carson stock if I am not mistaken
any idea who make such a spay on paint
tank you