PRS Talk Trainers 22LR vs 223

[Mudflap621]

Thanks Rob I agree but since it was first outing I wanted to get a feel for which ammo worked best in it. I will admit it was pretty fun even set up at 50 yards I could see where this would be a blast to run on some obstacles and steel. I can see myself buying some rimfire steel here pretty soon!

As for the recoil...I shot this before doing some load workup on the 6bra and it was funny once I switched to the big gun first round I let go I was like WTF checking for pressure signs . Yeah that round chronod at like 2700FPS lol.

 

[Matt_3479]

I find it helpful running the 22 both for groups and for steel. On paper I try and practice my basics. Trigger control, breathing, consistency on pressure, loading bipods, body positions in prone or bench. I focus on fundamentals mainly.

On steel I work on building a stable position, reading the wind/or shooting in similar winds, shooting with bags, tripods, slings. I work on opposite hand, body positions, and barricades.

I find all this transfer back to centerfire. I also practice with the 223 but I spend 10x the practice with the 22 then throw the 223 in the mix for muzzle blast and recoil.

Building a second and maybe a 3rd prs 22lr right now. Should hopefully be complete in 8-10 weeks

 

[Rocketboy]

Do people really recommend a 308 over a smaller cheaper caliper?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

what?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Do people really recommend a 308 over a smaller cheaper caliper?

If you want to work on recoil management, yes.

In a perfect world you would have several “trainers.”

You can’t get specialized training with generalized items. You’ll always be compromising.

 

[Tortuga]

I would think the .22lr-6mm combo would be more versatile than a .223-6mm combo. More disciplines and places to shoot, kid/beginner friendlier, takes up less time/room on reloading bench, etc. Have those major rimfire and centerfire bases covered, then decide if the holes in between them are big enough to fill with other rigs.

 

[max-x]

The one who burns the most gas wins

 

[TapRackBang]

I have a .223 barrel for my Bighorn because I also shoot service rifle and it is an easy switch because I have components and sometimes just use the same load in the bolt gun as the gas gun.

The comment about time saved by not reloading though when using 22LR is a good one and you can really stretch out to to 300+ yards and do ELR is fun.

 

[Birddog6424]

Do people really recommend a 308 over a smaller cheaper caliper?

Vibbert has ran a 308 trainer for years.

It takes the cost savings out of the equation, but he believes it's a great caliber to train on.

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

The answer depends on your goals.
If your goal is to improve your placement at matches while spending the least amount of money then the answer is:
-don’t build a trainer and shoot your match gun more

Explaination: your 6Bra will cost $.24/round more than shooting a 223 trainer. Running 6mm 108ELDMs vs 75ELDMs in 223 is $.10/round plus barrel depreciation on prefit is $.15/round on Bra and .04 on 223. The extra 5grains of powder in bra is roughly .03/round.

With 223 will need to spend $300 on 500pcs of Lapua brass plus a barrel at $450 plus a die set at $250. If you build a $5000 rifle all up you will lose around $1500 in depreciation over 3yrs. That means you will need to shoot more than 3,500 rounds of 223 a year for 3yrs to break even.

With a 22 your ammo will cost .30/rnd of centerx vs .66/bra and $500/yr in gun depreciation over 3yrs. If you go the .22 build route you will need to shoot 1400 rounds a year to justify the build.

In the mean time you are shooting your match rifle and tearing through a couple barrels with the same recoil impulse. You will get better because you are training with your actual match rifle.

Most people don’t understand what sort of time commitment shooting 3500 extra rounds of center fire a year can be…that’s 70 extra rounds EVERY week all year. If you shot 10 rounds every day all year from your match rifle you would end up being a top 10% shooter at minimum no matter how you finish currently.

So go out and purchase a couple prefits a bulk box of 2700 108ELDs and start blasting!

 

[Rocketboy]

Vibbert has ran a 308 trainer for years.

It takes the cost savings out of the equation, but he believes it's a great caliber to train on.

I have heard that people like it for recoil management. But with most competitions having pretty heavy classes (heck, even my RPR stock with a scope and bipods weighs almost 15 lbs), I would think that a 223 would be better... at least for me. I would look at the cost and wind training as the more beneficial training. But I may be wrong.

 

[Birddog6424]

The answer depends on your goals.
If your goal is to improve your placement at matches while spending the least amount of money then the answer is:
-don’t build a trainer and shoot your match gun more

Explaination: your 6Bra will cost $.24/round more than shooting a 223 trainer. Running 6mm 108ELDMs vs 75ELDMs in 223 is $.10/round plus barrel depreciation on prefit is $.15/round on Bra and .04 on 223. The extra 5grains of powder in bra is roughly .03/round.

With 223 will need to spend $300 on 500pcs of Lapua brass plus a barrel at $450 plus a die set at $250. If you build a $5000 rifle all up you will lose around $1500 in depreciation over 3yrs. That means you will need to shoot more than 3,500 rounds of 223 a year for 3yrs to break even.

With a 22 your ammo will cost .30/rnd of centerx vs .66/bra and $500/yr in gun depreciation over 3yrs. If you go the .22 build route you will need to shoot 1400 rounds a year to justify the build.

In the mean time you are shooting your match rifle and tearing through a couple barrels with the same recoil impulse. You will get better because you are training with your actual match rifle.

Most people don’t understand what sort of time commitment shooting 3500 extra rounds of center fire a year can be…that’s 70 extra rounds EVERY week all year. If you shot 10 rounds every day all year from your match rifle you would end up being a top 10% shooter at minimum no matter how you finish currently.

So go out and purchase a couple prefits a bulk box of 2700 108ELDs and start blasting!

I would agree with that cost analysis, but your costs are way too high.

You dont need $300 worth of Lapua brass for a trainer. Everglades ammo has range brass, cleaned with primer pockets swaged and shipped for $125 per 1000. I bought 1k from them 3 years ago and I'm still using it.

You don't need a $250 die set. $75 Hornady dies will treat you just fine.

And you sure as heck don't need a $5k rifle. Mine is built on a blue printed R700, an XLR Element chassis, a Timney Calvin Elite trigger and a prefit McGowan 223 AI barrel (accurately priced at $450) I'm in it for <$2k. I have over 6000 rounds on my current barrel loading 24grs of XBR8208 under a 75gr Hornady BTHP Match bullet that I buy in bulk. I load this on my 650 progressive at about 100 rounds every 8 minutes. It's shot half moa for the entirety of its life. I even crack it out for matches here and there with an 80gr ELDM and it performs fantastic.

I bought a replacement barrel for it a year ago, but I just can't kill this one.

A guy can certainly buy top of the line everything if they want to. But if you're looking at it from a cost analysis basis, you can bring it in at a pretty affordable number. And it will perform as needed.

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

I would agree with that cost analysis, but your costs are way too high.

You dont need $300 worth of Lapua brass for a trainer. Everglades ammo has range brass, cleaned with primer pockets swaged and shipped for $125 per 1000. I bought 1k from them 3 years ago and I'm still using it.

You don't need a $250 die set. $75 Hornady dies will treat you just fine.

And you sure as heck don't need a $5k rifle. Mine is built on a blue printed R700, an XLR Element chassis, a Timney Calvin Elite trigger and a prefit McGowan 223 AI barrel (accurately priced at $450) I'm in it for <$2k. I have over 6000 rounds on my current barrel loading 24grs of XBR8208 under a 75gr Hornady BTHP Match bullet that I buy in bulk. I load this on my 650 progressive at about 100 rounds every 8 minutes. It's shot half moa for the entirety of its life. I even crack it out for matches here and there with an 80gr ELDM and it performs fantastic.

I bought a replacement barrel for it a year ago, but I just can't kill this one.

A guy can certainly buy top of the line everything if they want to. But if you're looking at it from a cost analysis basis, you can bring it in at a pretty affordable number. And it will perform as needed.

I would agree you don’t need Lapua brass or competition dies. You also don’t need to spend 5k on a rifle.

I was just trying to show cost benefit for OP with his specific situation…and what would most likely help him climb the ladder at matches.

The OP was talking about building a 223 trainer exactly like his comp gun…or a RimX/vudoo. I used 5k because that is what a low cost setup with good optics will run you. You could also just borrow a browning abolt from your brother in 7mag and run 185s at 2950 for a trainer like a man…but that’s not what OP was asking. And you might feel that on your shoulder and complain like a little girl after only shooting 50-60 rounds.

My 223 trainer is set up exactly like my comp gun minus some duct tape and I run good brass with good dies because I want good accuracy when I’m shooting it. Your rifle shoots really well for range brass produced on a Dillon. Not many setups with those components will get that sort of accuracy. My 223 trainer averages right at 1/2 MOA with 10 shot strings…with the good stuff haha!

With Lapua brass you can get 20+ firings most of the range brass I shot got around 5-10max. Plus keeping the different batches of weight sorted range brass separate is a pain. And then turning those necks so you get consistent neck tension is a pain in the butt! Lapua is easy mode for brass.

The die set is personal preference…I enjoy bushing dies because of the flexibility in neck tension.

 

[ackley264]

I shoot a 6 dasher and have a RimX. I am still putting together a 223 trainer/backup gun. I also live in Oklahoma where the wind can preclude any training with 22lr.

 

[Sheldon N]

FWIW my actual costs shooting a 223 trainer are roughly $0.48/rd all-in with barrel wear, 6BRA match rounds are $0.98/rd all-in. If I switched to a cheap bullet for training with the BRA I could get that down to maybe $0.83/rd. Practicing roughly 4000 rds/yr that is a cost difference of $1900 vs $3300 for a 223 vs 6BRA trainer per year.

My 223 trainer is a full build identical to my match gun. I would say over the past 3 years I have about $800 in depreciation on the parts from when new, with the big difference being that I bought my scope used and it hasn't really lost any value.

So for me it's worked out with costs breaking even in about 7 months on the 223 trainer and ongoing savings of about $1400 per year. However I think the bigger advantage is the speed at which I can load 223 on a Dillon, not having to worry about where my match brass is in the cycle and if I have enough ready for the next match, not burning through match barrels and having to redo break-in/load development, etc.

 

[Rocketboy]

I shoot a 6 dasher and have a RimX. I am still putting together a 223 trainer/backup gun. I also live in Oklahoma where the wind can preclude any training with 22lr.

I love shooting in Oklahoma with a RimX! I like the 4 mil hold at 75 yards@ HAHA

 

[mikeshaw2]

Both is not a bad choice but the .22 first would be my recommendation. Also the .22 matches are cheaper but only less stressful if you care less. It's still a rifle match and you still have to do all the same things you do in a centerfire match to be successful. Maybe more so when wind is involved. That is why shooting the .22 matches is great training.

All the PRS22 matches I've shot so far have me shooting maybe 2 boxes of ammo. For less than $10 you can practice getting stable on the props the MD uses. As others have mentioned, 22s are blown around a lot.

M