Transferable M16...

bm11

bm11

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 18, 2010
2,562
13
41
Maine
#1
I know, this is the SEMI auto forum, but I know there are some knowledgeable full auto guys around here.

Sometime soon I would like to buy a full auto ar-15/m-16 lower. I know that I am going to spend $8k-$15k, that is not an issue. I just need some advice on which direction to go. I know that an original Colt A1 is going to be the most expensive. I would like to buy the most reliable USER possible. Not a collector, but I don't want to spend a ton of money on junk either.

Just looking for some advice from guys who know more about this than I do. Options are lightning link, RDIAS, and a registered lower. Instinct tells me that a forged lower would be the way to go, but I am interested in hearing more.

Thanks,

-Bob
 
#3
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VarmitSpecial</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would look in arfcom armory section, they have a whole section on class 3 items and one specially for m16 and the people will help you out a lot. </div></div>

OK, will do. I don't have a membership there and hate to be the new guy who comes in with zero posts and asks a question, but I'll poke around there.
 
#6
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd go with the RDIAS myself. </div></div>Expand, please! I am definitely open to suggestions, hence, the thread.
 
#7
Re: Transferrable M16...

My understandings at least:
Can be easily swapped from rifle to rifle if need be.
Easier to repair if something happens vs the receiver.


Basically you can buy a nice high end receiver and use that vs some receiver that is going on 3 decades old.
 
#8
Re: Transferrable M16...

i'd go with the registered lower (and in fact i did for years and sold it just last fall... you can find pics in the for sale forum)

one of the reasons for that is that you'll want to put geissele's SSF trigger in it.

i got an EA investment cast receiver and put a TON of rounds through it, including 3gun matches. the only thing you really have to watch out for is that the little ears that hold the trigger guard on are delicate and you can break them if you don't support them while punching out that roll pin.

of course, if i could get a forged lower, i would have. but you will pay a lot more for them, and MOST of them on the market are large-pin colts, which will limit your upper choices. i'd pass on that.
 
#9
Re: Transferrable M16...

Personally, I would go with a factory Colt or other well known conversion that work. We have bought and transfered a lot of M16s and by far the best ones are the Colts. Right now the demand is high for them. The ones I get in are usually not shot all to hell, and are basically in almost new condition. In the past year we have bought gotten them as low as 10k for a beater shooter, to 20k for a brand new in the box, never been fired M16A2. We have also bought and transfered a lot of conversion guns. They are sometimes a gamble, but if you get it at the right price it can be made to work. This week we just took in a Sendra converted M16, while most of them that I have seen worked and fitted well with other parts, this one wasn't up to spec. I am having to polish some parts so any upper would fit with no issues. So basically I am going to have to strip the gun all the way down and refinish the lower to get it back to spec then I can sell it. They usually won't last long. If you were to get a receiver or complete gun, I would make sure it fits the parts you want to put on it. We have run into a lot of less known AR receivers that are not mil spec and have trouble fitting a lot of todays parts that are built on a lot more precise machines.

RDIAS if you get a good one and someone competent to mod your current AR to take it will work like a dream and the beauty of it is that you can move it to a different gun if you like. But if you get a crappy one and the lower it's installed on isn't drilled correctly, it's a handful to diagnose. We have seen a few of those come through the shop as well.

I should have a couple more transferable guns coming in next week or so out of the estate we took over. And I believe there are a couple transferable M16s in the collection too.
 
#10
Re: Transferrable M16...

Ok, I'm glad taliv chimed in, as well as Houston Armory.

It is important for me to run a modern upper on the rifle, so does that rule out Colt? I thought the whole "large pin/small pin" thing was regarding the triggers on Colt semi's, not the uppers?

I am not set in stone on forged vs cast, I just want something that will run, continue to run, and be compatible with other parts out there as need be.
 
#11
Re: Transferrable M16...

so i'm keying in on your reliability comment. if you buy as many guns as poison does, then the RDIAS is the way to go. same for if you just want to have fun with it, impress your friends, turn $ into noise, post youtube videos etc.

if you want something for 'hard use' i'd stick with a registered lower.

i don't disagree with houston, that the colts (factory M16 and AR15 conversions) are by far better quality (though the EA lowers imho are good enough after you strip them and replace all the parts with quality ones). my prob when i was buying was that the only reasonably priced colts were conversions which had big pins and i just really hate not being able to drop a noveske or BCM upper on them. i'd would have had to buy a complete colt, then strip the upper and lower and rebuilt them to get the config i wanted.

one other downside to the investment cast lowers is that the geometry underneath the grip isn't the same as a forged lower. mine would accept an ergo grip, but not a magpul MIAD.
 
#12
Re: Transferrable M16...

Well, I don't know about hard use, pretty much a fun toy to show the friends, but I would much prefer to not have to worry about malfunctions or excessive wear and tear, as I use all my stuff and none gets babied.

My idea is to put a 10" HK416 upper on it with the appropriate buffer and tube setup on it, and run it with a T1 and my Surefire can. Probably would see a fair amount of rounds through it.
 
#13
Re: Transferrable M16...

Yeah, the days of a "affordable" Colt is long gone. For the better part of last year I have been having issues finding factory Colts for reasonable prices. It's not too uncommon to find a new or near new Colt A2 for 22-27k. 2-3 years ago they were 14-17K brand new and everything thought that was nuts for a M16. If you do go that route, at least it will hold value and actually appreciate as times go on.
 
#14
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Options are lightning link, RDIAS, and a registered lower.
Thanks,

-Bob </div></div>

Stay away from any L/L they are cheaper than a RDIAS an R/R for a reason. If your wanting to enjoy the thing, a RDIAS is much cheaper in the long run, as they do not go down in price like a beat up R/R if you ever what to shed it. You can buy a cheap AR, kit it, an rock on w/o worrying about scratching it up. If your shooting NFA comps like car shoots, or shoot houses, appearance will go to shit the first match, anyway.
 
#15
Re: Transferrable M16...

How is an RDIAS to get to run though? Is it hit or miss, or are they pretty much "good to go?"

Also, does the RDIAS allow a short barrel upper on the rifle under the same stamp while installed, or a separate SBR stamp?
 
#16
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I don't know about hard use, pretty much a fun toy to show the friends, but I would much prefer to not have to worry about malfunctions or excessive wear and tear, as I use all my stuff and none gets babied.

My idea is to put a 10" HK416 upper on it with the appropriate buffer and tube setup on it, and run it with a T1 and my Surefire can. Probably would see a fair amount of rounds through it. </div></div>

I would go something different than a HK upper. HK is known for being a royal pain to get parts for and also the HK416 upper was not supposed to be ever sold to civilians. We all know they are out there but if you ever have warranty issues good luck. I have talked to HK employees about this and instead I went with an LWRC upper for a demo rifle. If you want to go with a 10.5 inch upper you might want to look at a no kidding MK18 upper if you want a DI or look at the LWRC if you want a piston. Just my 2 cents.
 
#17
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How is an RDIAS to get to run though? Is it hit or miss, or are they pretty much "good to go?"</div></div> I've never had an issue, an you can change the timing to your liking.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, does the RDIAS allow a short barrel upper on the rifle under the same stamp while installed, or a separate SBR stamp? </div></div>
MG stamp, trumps SBR everywhere as far as I know, but call BATF-E an ask about your state, they don't bite.
 
#18
Re: Transferrable M16...

Look at the Colt Model 614s. They are factory select fire rifles. I had one a few years ago. They are marked safe semi auto. They are generally several thousand less than one marked M16.

As for uppers, I'd look at factory Colt uppers to swap out. If you want aftermarket, I'd look at the Noveske shorties. I've had very good luck with both on my semis and autos.
 
#19
Re: Transferrable M16...

For a compatible GI type rifle you need an M16 hammer,safety /selector, disconnector, and bolt carrier for fire control parts. You also need the full auto sear. The receiver needed to be milled out for clearance and a through hole drilled through the receiver to locate it properly. On a military sear gun you will see a tiny pin directly above the selector. This is the one I would look for a quality lower receiver. The machining is not difficult and worth it (to me).

You can swap in burst fire control parts also if you want 3 shot burst over automatic.

Drop in sears-

They work. Again several people made them and quality varies. Colt receivers at one time used a receiver block to defeat the drop in sear. A PITA to remove but doable. You still need the M16 fire control parts and carrier. Works as select fire.

Lightning Link-

A stamped piece of sheetmetal that allows the rifle to fire fully automatic. Pretty cheap piece of metal that if transferable is one expensive piece of metal.


Receivers-

Colt AR15's used a mix of small pin and large pin receivers. I have not seen large pin M16 parts. If you have a host rifle in mind remember when your parts shopping. I liked having the military parts / sear in my rifle. The sears work and their original selling point was swap ability. Now if in the NFA registry they are little chunks of gold.
 
#22
Re: Transferrable M16...

I run a 9 inch POF upper on my M-16 with excellent results, Surefire 556-212 can with a T-1 on top. buy a Colt, if you ever decide to sell it, you'll get your money back plus
 
#24
Re: Transferrable M16...

Bob, I'm in the same boat as you. I have been looking for a full auto lower. I have decided to buy a Colt M16. I will run a Noveske 8" Blackout upper and a SDN-6 can. Can't wait.
 
#26
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barfly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob, I'm in the same boat as you. I have been looking for a full auto lower. I have decided to buy a Colt M16. I will run a Noveske 8" Blackout upper and a SDN-6 can. Can't wait. </div></div>
I have the same upper with a 762-SD can, running subs, the gun runs like a M-60.
very slow rate of fire on F/A. and very expensive.
on my 3rd case of Southwest Ammos 300 Blackout
 
#27
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgpatty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the Colt Model 614s. They are factory select fire rifles. I had one a few years ago. They are marked safe semi auto. They are generally several thousand less than one marked M16.

</div></div>

We have had great luck with the 614s. They have no issues on parts interchangability with standard mil spec uppers and newer parts of today.
 
#28
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, does the RDIAS allow a short barrel upper on the rifle under the same stamp while installed, or a separate SBR stamp? </div></div>

As long as the RDIAS is installed the rifle can have a short barreled upper. If the RDIAS is removed from that lower, you have to remove the short upper unless you have also registered the lower as a SBR.

I have admired RDIAS from afar for a long time. If I were to jump into the M16 game, that would be the way I go. I don't mind tinkering and I beat the hell out of my stuff. A registered lower would be a waste on me unless it was already a beater. However I like the idea of being able to have all the new fancy features (ambi-controls, integrate magwells, etc.) with a rock-and-roll selector.
 
#29
Re: Transferrable M16...

Well, expanding on the RDIAS, the only reason I was excluding it was because I was assuming they were unreliable. If they can run, I would be all about one for the right price, as I certainly wouldn't mind building the rest of the rifle around it.

Anyone know where there is one for sale?
 
#31
Re: Transferrable M16...

BM11, You have an AX if I'm not mistaken; amongst other very high quality pieces. Now you want to talk RDIAS!! You will never be happy w/ it; reliability is hit or miss. And I don't know about you but I would feel like an idiot paying that kind of money for about an inch of aluminum and steel. Before 1986 one could buy them for under a 100 bucks. Buy a Colt and don't look back; you'll never be sorry you did.
 
#33
Re: Transferrable M16...

For maximum durability take a look at the Group Industries stainless steel lowers. It's the only non-Colt I'd consider and they are currently going for roughly the same amount as a Colt M16A1. Only 106 were made but several have come up for sale over the past few months on Sturm and Subguns so keep your eyes open and be prepared to act quickly. Some were made slightly out of spec (usually the shelf is a few thou too high) but can be corrected by M60Joe.com. If the stainless lower is ever damaged it is easier to repair by welding up and machining than an aluminum lower. And of course they're a few ounces heavier.
 
#35
Re: Transferrable M16...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BM11, You have an AX if I'm not mistaken; amongst other very high quality pieces. Now you want to talk RDIAS!! You will never be happy w/ it; reliability is hit or miss. And I don't know about you but I would feel like an idiot paying that kind of money for about an inch of aluminum and steel. Before 1986 one could buy them for under a 100 bucks. Buy a Colt and don't look back; you'll never be sorry you did. </div></div>You are probably correct. Especially when they are similar money.
 
#36
Re: Transferrable M16...

The last year has been a sellers’ market for MG’s especially for the RDIAS’s. As of late, the RDIAS’s have all but disappeared on the boards. If they do pop up, people are snatching them up for 15K to 17K. I’m not sure if I could bring myself to pay that for a RDIAS. Of course, a couple years from now I might be kicking myself for not buying one. You just never know what the market will be like in the future. If I were going to buy another ’16, I would get one of the following (unless the price was too good to pass up): Colt M16 A1/A2, Group Ind. SS, Sendra/Bushy conv., or a RDIAS.
 
#37
Re: Transferrable M16...

For a shooter

#1 Group stainless lower
#2 Colt
#3 Sendra/Bushy conversion
#4 Drop in auto sear
#5 LL (make a wide path)

I had a 72 Factory shorty, a 614 and the group Ind s/s. Sold the Colts because I was using the Group Ind. lower as a shooter in all calibers. 9mm is hard on lower pins and IF I broke a pin the stainless would be EZ'er to repair.

JMO YMMV
Hope this helps,
Trilogymac
 
#38
Re: Transferrable M16...

Thanks trilogymac.

To all of those in this thread- I have talked to a number of people who own and have owned full auto guns, and everyone thus far says the novelty wears off. I'm leaning towards just not doing it. Anyone have anything else to add?
 
#39
Re: Transferrable M16...

Don't take the following wrong but,....

If one can't make a drop in work, they need to rethink owning any Title II toys. Having a title II for enjoyment is totally different than, look at what I've got. Machine guns are not for every one, as the cost of the weapon is not the issue, the food is.
When I got in, Steal DIAS's were $15.00. In the early 80's they were still only 25-30 bucks. My first full auto AR was less money than the drop in, an Form 1 charge. Still have it to this day an use it exclusively, when shooting bldg entry match's. Though it sports a 11.5" tube now, it still runs like a Swiss watch. Few guys on here can vouch for that, as many hide members have shot her as well.
If you want one to shoot match's, an learn how to properly employ/drive a F/A that's one thing. If your just getting one to shoot once or twice a year an hopefully make money on, invest somewhere else, an just rent for the urge.
 
#40
Re: Transferrable M16...

So as a follow up to this thread-

Today I finalized a deal with Tom Olson on his transferable M16A1. I am going to buy a short piston upper (probably an LWRC M6A3 unless I can find a sub-rape price on a HK416,) a 300 BLK upper, and a .22 upper. Maybe a Shrike as well if I can find one!

Thanks again for all the input. I am also going to be buying the Geissee SSF trigger per advise.

Next up after my bank account recovers will be a transferable MP5!
 
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