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Re: trap or lead
yeah your right bolt ripper,leading works best for me also.
I was just trying to come up with something that wasnt allready beat into the ground with past threads.
It always good to hear the way other people do it.
thats how i learn.
yeah your right bolt ripper,leading works best for me also.
I was just trying to come up with something that wasnt allready beat into the ground with past threads.
It always good to hear the way other people do it.
thats how i learn.
Re: trap or lead
I had this conversation with a USMC SS instructor back from Iraq, and who had taught at the HI schoolhouse for 40 months. He said they teach and shoot trapping method over the tracking method by a wide margin.
I would say in a perfect world, trap when you can. Train to shoot both ways. If the target is close, or pops up with limited time to get set-up you might have to do a track (catch up and lead).
There is a segment in our Data Book and accompanying User Manual that addresses moving target engagement, and has boxes for the shooter to record this valuable data.
I had this conversation with a USMC SS instructor back from Iraq, and who had taught at the HI schoolhouse for 40 months. He said they teach and shoot trapping method over the tracking method by a wide margin.
I would say in a perfect world, trap when you can. Train to shoot both ways. If the target is close, or pops up with limited time to get set-up you might have to do a track (catch up and lead).
There is a segment in our Data Book and accompanying User Manual that addresses moving target engagement, and has boxes for the shooter to record this valuable data.
Re: trap or lead
I spent 3 years living on a range with a good moving target system.
As a result of that, I expect that I've spent more time shooting movers at ranges out to 700 yards than most people can imagine.
And I find that you really need to be able to both track and ambush, depending on the range and situation, and also on whether you have an FFP scope, or a SFP scope which has a reticle accurate only at the highest power.
The problem with ambushing or trapping with a high-power scope at close distances is that you don't have enough field of view. And real-world targets change speed and direction. If you're trying to trap at relatively close range with a high-power SFP scope, the target may never appear, or may be moving at a speed which is different than you thought.
So, you may need to track the target just to get an estimate of the speed of the target.
Also, under low-light conditions, a high-power scope under recoil may jump enough that you'll lose the target for a possible follow-up shot.
And I find that I use my FFP scope at a medium power - say 10, or even 8 at night - and use a combination of techniques. I usually track the target, then get out in front of it, and trap it.
With a .308 at 2600 fps, at 500 yards or less, I use a rule of thumb of 0.6 mils per mph of mover speed perpendicular of the line of fire. I estimate the target speed, and go from there.
And then there's the wind. If the wind is blowing in the same direction the target is moving, you have to reduce your mover lead by the wind lead. If the wind is blowing hard enough, you may be holding behind the target to hit it.
If the wind is blowing oppposite to the direction the mover is going, you have to increase your mover lead by the wind lead.
There are people who dial the wind lead. It takes less mental agility, because they can use the same mover lead whether the target is going upwind or downwind. However, the wind varies and gusts, so I don't favor that technique.
Are we having fun yet?
Moving targets are an interesting real-world problem, because real-world targets are rarely polite enough to stand still while you shoot them. Pity.
I spent 3 years living on a range with a good moving target system.
As a result of that, I expect that I've spent more time shooting movers at ranges out to 700 yards than most people can imagine.
And I find that you really need to be able to both track and ambush, depending on the range and situation, and also on whether you have an FFP scope, or a SFP scope which has a reticle accurate only at the highest power.
The problem with ambushing or trapping with a high-power scope at close distances is that you don't have enough field of view. And real-world targets change speed and direction. If you're trying to trap at relatively close range with a high-power SFP scope, the target may never appear, or may be moving at a speed which is different than you thought.
So, you may need to track the target just to get an estimate of the speed of the target.
Also, under low-light conditions, a high-power scope under recoil may jump enough that you'll lose the target for a possible follow-up shot.
And I find that I use my FFP scope at a medium power - say 10, or even 8 at night - and use a combination of techniques. I usually track the target, then get out in front of it, and trap it.
With a .308 at 2600 fps, at 500 yards or less, I use a rule of thumb of 0.6 mils per mph of mover speed perpendicular of the line of fire. I estimate the target speed, and go from there.
And then there's the wind. If the wind is blowing in the same direction the target is moving, you have to reduce your mover lead by the wind lead. If the wind is blowing hard enough, you may be holding behind the target to hit it.
If the wind is blowing oppposite to the direction the mover is going, you have to increase your mover lead by the wind lead.
There are people who dial the wind lead. It takes less mental agility, because they can use the same mover lead whether the target is going upwind or downwind. However, the wind varies and gusts, so I don't favor that technique.
Are we having fun yet?
Moving targets are an interesting real-world problem, because real-world targets are rarely polite enough to stand still while you shoot them. Pity.
Re: trap or lead
I'm not a shotgunner, and I don't have an understanding of the meaning of the terms 'trap and lead'.
My method for movers has been something sorta like what I used the few times I shot at claybirds.
I would shoot with a friend, and would pick up on his misses. I would swing 'through' the target from behind, and 'flick/slap' the trigger as the sights passed through the mover.
Coarse, quick, and dirty; and it worked more often than it didn't.
With a .22LR and moving rodents, it has a significant value.
And yes, turning down the magnification to minimum is necessary for me.
Greg
I'm not a shotgunner, and I don't have an understanding of the meaning of the terms 'trap and lead'.
My method for movers has been something sorta like what I used the few times I shot at claybirds.
I would shoot with a friend, and would pick up on his misses. I would swing 'through' the target from behind, and 'flick/slap' the trigger as the sights passed through the mover.
Coarse, quick, and dirty; and it worked more often than it didn't.
With a .22LR and moving rodents, it has a significant value.
And yes, turning down the magnification to minimum is necessary for me.
Greg
Re: trap or lead
About 25 years ago I was extremely fortunate to have been able to shoot routinely on a military range where we could set up moving target drills using human powered targets... i.e. the people moving the target were protected by a high berm and the targets were attached to long poles. By virtue of the variablity of the walking speed, angle of poles changing, targets bobbing vertically, people reversing direction at the sound of the shot or an impact, etc., we had very interesting shooting problems to solve. The target runs were up to approximately 50M. We were typically shooting semiautos, but bolt guns were in the mix as well. We only shot these set ups out to 400M, but at those ranges and with the variability of target movement, we all ended up shooting the lead method rather than traps. Note that all of this was with somewhat antique scopes, with simple duplex reticles primarily, so trapping would have been less precise. Also, it was more of an infantry type of training not precision marksmanship. We were focused on getting a hit, and if we had to fire a follow up or two, no matter. I hesitated to even write this, as my experience pales in comparison to the other writers here. So it is offered as a sharing of an experience, rather than a suggestion of "the way".
As a side note, for me, at ranges inside of 150 to 200M I found that the number of hits was inversely proportional to the stability of the shooting position. That is, it became a lot harder for me to track smoothly if I was prone with a mover at 100M, wereas, if I switched to kneeling, I did much better. Might be obvious stuff, but it was a lesson that stuck for me.
As another observation from that experience, shooting movers with a rifle at a little distance (at least using the lead method) was the single most perishable skill I have ever encountered in years of shooting handguns, shotguns and any other form of rifle shooting. Perhaps trapping would be more durable??
About 25 years ago I was extremely fortunate to have been able to shoot routinely on a military range where we could set up moving target drills using human powered targets... i.e. the people moving the target were protected by a high berm and the targets were attached to long poles. By virtue of the variablity of the walking speed, angle of poles changing, targets bobbing vertically, people reversing direction at the sound of the shot or an impact, etc., we had very interesting shooting problems to solve. The target runs were up to approximately 50M. We were typically shooting semiautos, but bolt guns were in the mix as well. We only shot these set ups out to 400M, but at those ranges and with the variability of target movement, we all ended up shooting the lead method rather than traps. Note that all of this was with somewhat antique scopes, with simple duplex reticles primarily, so trapping would have been less precise. Also, it was more of an infantry type of training not precision marksmanship. We were focused on getting a hit, and if we had to fire a follow up or two, no matter. I hesitated to even write this, as my experience pales in comparison to the other writers here. So it is offered as a sharing of an experience, rather than a suggestion of "the way".
As a side note, for me, at ranges inside of 150 to 200M I found that the number of hits was inversely proportional to the stability of the shooting position. That is, it became a lot harder for me to track smoothly if I was prone with a mover at 100M, wereas, if I switched to kneeling, I did much better. Might be obvious stuff, but it was a lesson that stuck for me.
As another observation from that experience, shooting movers with a rifle at a little distance (at least using the lead method) was the single most perishable skill I have ever encountered in years of shooting handguns, shotguns and any other form of rifle shooting. Perhaps trapping would be more durable??
Re: trap or lead
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...If the wind is blowing hard enough, you may be holding behind the target to hit it...</div></div>I have tried holding negative lead and it works for me. But why do some schools, like Storm Mountain, teach that holding behind a mover is not the preferred technique?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...If the wind is blowing hard enough, you may be holding behind the target to hit it...</div></div>I have tried holding negative lead and it works for me. But why do some schools, like Storm Mountain, teach that holding behind a mover is not the preferred technique?
Re: trap or lead
Well, that's hard to say without knowing how they would plan to hit a target where the wind lead is more than the mover lead and in the opposite direction.
You could dial one way or the other, but as I mentioned before, since targets change direction and speed, and so does the wind, I prefer not to do that.
Well, that's hard to say without knowing how they would plan to hit a target where the wind lead is more than the mover lead and in the opposite direction.
You could dial one way or the other, but as I mentioned before, since targets change direction and speed, and so does the wind, I prefer not to do that.
Re: trap or lead
Boltripper always tries to bring home the bacon...you got to LEAD the bastiges, cause they done always run in a straight line....from the tooter to the snooter >>>>
Boltripper always tries to bring home the bacon...you got to LEAD the bastiges, cause they done always run in a straight line....from the tooter to the snooter >>>>
Re: trap or lead
Just a couple of thoughts. I have only ever seen a couple of ranges where the target actually can go any direction (instead of just back and forth and the target controller can almost turn the target around on a dime out to 800yds. This really teaches one to guage the angle and speed before shooting.
Boltripper is correct, if you have shotgun experience shooting movers comes more easily.
DTubb
Just a couple of thoughts. I have only ever seen a couple of ranges where the target actually can go any direction (instead of just back and forth and the target controller can almost turn the target around on a dime out to 800yds. This really teaches one to guage the angle and speed before shooting.
Boltripper is correct, if you have shotgun experience shooting movers comes more easily.
DTubb
Re: trap or lead
Yes i have quite a lot of experiance with the scattergun.Ido a lot of dove and quail hunting.
I am a pretty good shot with a rifle but i have hardly any experiance with movers.So now is the time for me to start.thanks for all the knowledge from everyone.
Now tell the truth boltripper you chased that hog down with that knife and dispatched it didnt you.haha
Yes i have quite a lot of experiance with the scattergun.Ido a lot of dove and quail hunting.
I am a pretty good shot with a rifle but i have hardly any experiance with movers.So now is the time for me to start.thanks for all the knowledge from everyone.
Now tell the truth boltripper you chased that hog down with that knife and dispatched it didnt you.haha
Re: trap or lead
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes i have quite a lot of experiance with the scattergun.Ido a lot of dove and quail hunting.
I am a pretty good shot with a rifle but i have hardly any experiance with movers.So now is the time for me to start.thanks for all the knowledge from everyone.
Now tell the truth boltripper you chased that hog down with that knife and dispatched it didnt you.haha</div></div>
no...actually that one WAS a runner and before he vanished due to his excellent cammo....i popped him in the plumbing and he leaked out for about 40 yd before he ran out of fluid, both he and his younger brother that i head shot earlier in the day were both harvested with a suppressed .308, the 155grn Amax make more noise smacking the animal than the gun going off....
really kinda gotta be real careful about letting others know what you are doing and where you are aiming when others are in the field, especially when you un-ass a vehicle and chase down these little boogers....they run everywhere.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes i have quite a lot of experiance with the scattergun.Ido a lot of dove and quail hunting.
I am a pretty good shot with a rifle but i have hardly any experiance with movers.So now is the time for me to start.thanks for all the knowledge from everyone.
Now tell the truth boltripper you chased that hog down with that knife and dispatched it didnt you.haha</div></div>
no...actually that one WAS a runner and before he vanished due to his excellent cammo....i popped him in the plumbing and he leaked out for about 40 yd before he ran out of fluid, both he and his younger brother that i head shot earlier in the day were both harvested with a suppressed .308, the 155grn Amax make more noise smacking the animal than the gun going off....
really kinda gotta be real careful about letting others know what you are doing and where you are aiming when others are in the field, especially when you un-ass a vehicle and chase down these little boogers....they run everywhere.
Re: trap or lead
roger that.here were i live there arent many wild hogs.
the closest thing we have that you can get a good running shot on is coyotes.We have tons of them
roger that.here were i live there arent many wild hogs.
the closest thing we have that you can get a good running shot on is coyotes.We have tons of them
Re: trap or lead
467.....you may wish to chat up DTubb about the yotes....if memory serves, he has been on many a dirty dog jihad.
467.....you may wish to chat up DTubb about the yotes....if memory serves, he has been on many a dirty dog jihad.
Re: trap or lead
intresting thread thanx guys. id say in hunting running deer ive used a reflexive lead but only on lateral movers 100 yards and under. ive never really worked out what speed a deer hits when theyre haulin but it seems like i break the shot just low of their nose and usually strikes chest. but i remember once on one that was a touch farther out same hold took out rear leg sending that doe toppling into a strip pit. suppose i should note most of these shots ive attempted actually were followups to what was later found to be first round lethal hits, but i dont like to stop shooting till the thing im shootin is DOWN.
intresting thread thanx guys. id say in hunting running deer ive used a reflexive lead but only on lateral movers 100 yards and under. ive never really worked out what speed a deer hits when theyre haulin but it seems like i break the shot just low of their nose and usually strikes chest. but i remember once on one that was a touch farther out same hold took out rear leg sending that doe toppling into a strip pit. suppose i should note most of these shots ive attempted actually were followups to what was later found to be first round lethal hits, but i dont like to stop shooting till the thing im shootin is DOWN.
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