Suppressors Travelling overseas with supressor

[cega]

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered previously but I've searched and have not found anything regarding traveling with a suppressor from the US overseas, plenty of info for travel between states etc.

I travel regularly to Europe for both business and to see family and would like at some point to take my 338LM with suppressor with me. I figure I will need to make certain I can legally have it with me in my country of destination, which I can handle. What I haven't been able to find is any clear statement regarding temporary transit of the suppressor from the US to the other country.

Is this getting me in to ITAR territory where I need to go in to State and/or DTC for approvals etc.?

Any help here much appreciated and thanks in advance.

 

[Downrange1x]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

Unless you like the thought of big hairy European men nestled up to your backside DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT !!!! I have seen and heard some crazy BULLSHIT on here but this is the kicker of all!!!! Please tell me this was a joke thread or at least you are strung out on meth. SERIOUSLY!!!!

 

[Carpenter07]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

I'm not sure about Europe, but from what I know about traveling to South Africa is that it is bad news to travel with a caliber that is currently or commonly in use by military, 308, 338lm... This is why I shoot a 7mm rem mag.

 

[KYS]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

You cannot take a federally regulated item out of country. Hell, they are even not allowed in some states here in the USA.

If you like foreign prisons, go right ahead. And then prosecution back in the USA, if you return.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

They are not regulated over there like they are here. You might look into purchasing one over there and leave it for when you visit.

 

[cega]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

Thanks for the responses. For a few of those who read and responded the question seemed to have touched a nerve so I'll try to add some info that hopefully will settle all that down.

First to the idea that even thinking of taking a regulated item out of the country is nuts and will somehow land one in trouble with the overseas authorities and later the US ones:

Absolutely right if you just hop a flight and don't do your paperwork for this side of the deal and make certain that your country of destination is cool with things as well.

There seems to be a common misconception that regulated items cannot be taken out of the country. This is incorrect in general so long as certain requirements are met. Both ATF regulated items and other far more sensitive regulated items are routinely exported out of this country and doing so is perfectly legal providing the exporter goes through the proper procedures.

The requirements vary depending on what the item or items are and the purpose of their export but generally speaking as long as the exporting entity is registered with DDTC and the proper license or licenses have been obtained, most often either a DSP-5 or a DSP-73 the item can be taken out of the country and, in the case of the DSP-73 licensed items, be returned (imported) back in to the US.

I have an employee on staff who is the Firm's dedicated ITAR compliance officer and so we are familiar with the DDTC requirements and based on that I understand that a DSP-73 license would need to be obtained if I had to go that route, which I certainly can deal with as we do it for other clients of my Firm.

My question was specifically about whether there was any ATF form, permit, license or whatever that might act in place of the DSP-73 since I suspect if there were the process might be a bit less of a PIA.

Anyway, hopefully the above sheds a bit more light on what I was trying to get to. All that said I would still like to hear from anyone who has actually either taken a can out of the country and returned with it or who went down the path of trying to and found that they were not able to.

 

[cega]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot take a federally regulated item out of country. Hell, they are even not allowed in some states here in the USA.

If you like foreign prisons, go right ahead. And then prosecution back in the USA, if you return. </div></div>

KYS338:

Maybe your post was just your opinion but you are incorrect in stating that federally regulated items cannot be taken out of the country.

Via the State Dept. and Directorate of Defense Trade Controls it is perfectly legal to export regulated items and also import them.

Presuming the exporter is in compliance with those requirements AND the country of destination is good to go then there is no worries re. foreign prisons or prosecution back in the USA either.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

You will to check with the country of destination with reguards to having your weapon. Also you will have to check with customs on how to re-enter the country.

As to the Suppressor-- Hell I am nervious about travelling out of state let alone out of the country.

My simple advice ... leave them both at home.

 

[cega]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downrange1x</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you like the thought of big hairy European men nestled up to your backside DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT !!!! I have seen and heard some crazy BULLSHIT on here but this is the kicker of all!!!! Please tell me this was a joke thread or at least you are strung out on meth. SERIOUSLY!!!! </div></div>


Downrange1x:

Actually not a joke and not strung out on meth though given your post I have to wonder what was going on over there with you.

Seriously other than that I found your post pretty funny it was obvious to me that you have no actual knowledge about moving regulated items around, or at least not as it applies to my question.

There are very clear and, for the Federal government, pretty straightforward procedures in place to do exactly what I was asking about via State and DDTC.

My question wasn't whether it is possible to do it since I already know it can be done but was rather about whether or not ATF had anything in place to deal with out of country movements since they (ATF) might be easier to deal with than State and DDTC. That was it.

 

[RebelYell]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

Here's what I do when I have a question regarding something that doesn't relate to this site.
I CALL THE COMPANY,ORGANIZATION OR SOMEONE DIRECTLY RELATED TO WHAT IT IS MY QUESTION DEALS WITH.
NOT a bunch of guys who only have "ideas" of what may or may not be the right answer.

 

[cega]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will to check with the country of destination with reguards to having your weapon. Also you will have to check with customs on how to re-enter the country.

As to the Suppressor-- Hell I am nervious about travelling out of state let alone out of the country.

My simple advice ... leave them both at home. </div></div>

Kevlars -

Thanks for the response and advice. I've thought about leaving this kit here but really want to get out on our lands in Europe and have some fun. We have enough land that I can easily stretch out as far as I want, not something I can do easily here.

Country of destination checks are part of the process and since I do not intend to permanently export my rifle and suppressor the re-entry to the US is dealt with by the proper export license - most likely a DSP-73 since so far I've not found anything from ATF that can take its place.

The good thing about the DSP-73 is that it is good for 4 years once approved and since I have a couple of houses in Europe I could just take this kit over and leave it there for that duration, which given Lufthansa's $250 charge for the case each way may not be a bad idea. As long as I bring it all back prior to the expiration date of the license things will be fine.

Again thanks for the reply.

 

[cega]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RebelYell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's what I do when I have a question regarding something that doesn't relate to this site.
I CALL THE COMPANY,ORGANIZATION OR SOMEONE DIRECTLY RELATED TO WHAT IT IS MY QUESTION DEALS WITH.
NOT a bunch of guys who only have "ideas" of what may or may not be the right answer. </div></div>

RebelYell:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think every suppressor maker in this country knows exactly what is needed for them to export their products. I am less certain whether they can answer the question of one of their end users here in the States taking one of the products out of the country and then back. I had already contacted the maker of my suppressor and they didn't have an answer specific to my question so I posted it here. Also realize that permanent export by the manufacturer is different than temporary export by the manufacturer, both of which are different than export by the end user.

As to "ideas" of how to move regulated items out of this country, and back in for that matter:

My Firm has worked with NATO, State, DDTC and others for more than 20 years. We know how to move regulated and controlled items around and deal with that regularly. I'm not coming at this without any knowledge from that perspective, rather I was asking if anyone had any knowledge of an ATF procedure that would cover travel out of country.

So, and not trying to be a dick about it but the question still stands:

Does ATF have a procedure in place that after approval would permit a regulated item (suppressor specifically) to be temporarily taken from the States overseas and then brought back?

 

[KYS]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEGA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot take a federally regulated item out of country. Hell, they are even not allowed in some states here in the USA.

If you like foreign prisons, go right ahead. And then prosecution back in the USA, if you return. </div></div>

KYS338:

Maybe your post was just your opinion but you are incorrect in stating that federally regulated items cannot be taken out of the country.

Via the State Dept. and Directorate of Defense Trade Controls it is perfectly legal to export regulated items and also import them.

Presuming the exporter is in compliance with those requirements AND the country of destination is good to go then there is no worries re. foreign prisons or prosecution back in the USA either. </div></div>

So tell me what can be imported? Because I have checked on the importing and exporting of suppressors and the ATF said NO!

We are talking about the OP's post asking about suppressors. In which they ARE federally regulated/controlled items.

And if what you say is true (which I know it is not) then you are answering your question. So you have wasted everyone's time acting like you know the answer to everyone's responses. If you know, why bother asking us then? You need to write a formal letter to the ATF in specific the NFA branch and ask them what to do. I can say with certainty they will tell you in no way can you take a suppressor over seas. The rifle would have to go thru customs inspection.

 

[KYS]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEGA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will to check with the country of destination with reguards to having your weapon. Also you will have to check with customs on how to re-enter the country.

As to the Suppressor-- Hell I am nervious about travelling out of state let alone out of the country.

My simple advice ... leave them both at home. </div></div>

Kevlars -

Thanks for the response and advice. I've thought about leaving this kit here but really want to get out on our lands in Europe and have some fun. We have enough land that I can easily stretch out as far as I want, not something I can do easily here.

Country of destination checks are part of the process and since I do not intend to permanently export my rifle and suppressor the re-entry to the US is dealt with by the proper export license - most likely a DSP-73 since so far I've not found anything from ATF that can take its place.

The good thing about the DSP-73 is that it is good for 4 years once approved and since I have a couple of houses in Europe I could just take this kit over and leave it there for that duration, which given Lufthansa's $250 charge for the case each way may not be a bad idea. As long as I bring it all back prior to the expiration date of the license things will be fine.

Again thanks for the reply. </div></div>

Sounding like you already knew the answer to your question, and are wasting our time. You would rather pose the question, let everyone express their thoughts, then tear down their answers with your "knowledge" of the subject.

Call the ATF/NFA at 304-616-4500. Ask to speak to the head of export/import. Your firearms will be check by the customs office at your destination. And I can tell you know they will tell you to leave the suppressor at home and it is not permitted to leave the country.

 

[Mead]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEGA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My question wasn't whether it is possible to do it since I already know it can be done but was rather about whether or not ATF had anything in place to deal with out of country movements since they (ATF) might be easier to deal with than State and DDTC. That was it.



</div></div>


Can you guys read???
No need to thrash the guy, he's asking a legitimate question and being respectful. Sorry I can't help, best bet is to call ATF.

 

[sinister]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

ATF/NFA normally enforces importation and commerce within the United States (CFR 27).

State DDTC controls and monitors imports and exports of items on the United States Munitions List. You'll need a temporary export form and a permit to import on the far end.

Customs and Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (as well as the Coast Guard off-shore) enforce import and export law at ports of entry and departure. You'll have to fill in the Customs temporary export form showing it was in your posession when you left the US.

You have an ITAR compliance officer and section so you know all this and want a work-around.

If so, I strongly recommend you notify your individual or company legal counsel so they know what you're trying to do. You'll want the US Embassy or Consulate to assist if you're arrested overseas in transit or at destination, and legal representation if arrested on departure or arrival at a US port with contraband.

You know enough to be dangerous. If it's you traveling with your gear own gear and clueless good luck to you.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEGA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will to check with the country of destination with reguards to having your weapon. Also you will have to check with customs on how to re-enter the country.

As to the Suppressor-- Hell I am nervious about travelling out of state let alone out of the country.

My simple advice ... leave them both at home. </div></div>

Kevlars -

Thanks for the response and advice. I've thought about leaving this kit here but really want to get out on our lands in Europe and have some fun. We have enough land that I can easily stretch out as far as I want, not something I can do easily here.

Country of destination checks are part of the process and since I do not intend to permanently export my rifle and suppressor the re-entry to the US is dealt with by the proper export license - most likely a DSP-73 since so far I've not found anything from ATF that can take its place.

The good thing about the DSP-73 is that it is good for 4 years once approved and since I have a couple of houses in Europe I could just take this kit over and leave it there for that duration, which given Lufthansa's $250 charge for the case each way may not be a bad idea. As long as I bring it all back prior to the expiration date of the license things will be fine.

Again thanks for the reply. </div></div>

Sounding like you already knew the answer to your question, and are wasting our time. You would rather pose the question, let everyone express their thoughts, then tear down their answers with your "knowledge" of the subject.

Call the ATF/NFA at 304-616-4500. Ask to speak to the head of export/import. Your firearms will be check by the customs office at your destination. And I can tell you know they will tell you to leave the suppressor at home and it is not permitted to leave the country. </div></div>

Yup checked with our Compliance person here ... Weapon (with the permit and proof of ownership) no issue but may cause some eyebrows to get raised ... and may cause some custom issues on the point of entry. Heck-- in in the US not all the LEO's are up on what the laws are. And Europe being as Liberal as they are .. rule of thumb is unless it is specifically stated it is not allowed ... where here in the US unless it says it is not allowed ... it is permitted.

Suppressors are not Allowed and will be impounded at POE in Eruope. You need special permission (not sure of the form number) to have legal possession. From my friends over there - its sort of like getting a conceal carry permit in California. It is allowed but need special permission -- which is usually alwasy denied.

Good luck.

 

[cega]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

Kevlars -

Thanks for taking the time to check with your Compliance person, I really appreciate it. I'll ask my guy to check as well and your info may give him a better starting point.

It is interesting that at POE to Europe your person thinks the can might be impounded despite being permitted/licensed and papered. Didn't happen to elaborate on why that might be the case by any chance?

In the end I may just take RADcustom's advice and see about buying one over there and leaving it at the house so that way all I would have to do is deal with the back & forth with the rifle itself.

Thanks again.

 

[Sami]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Suppressors are not Allowed and will be impounded at POE in Eruope.</div></div>
Depends on the country. In Finland suppressors are not considered parts of firearms, therefore you can buy them over the counter without any paperwork (other than receipt of purchase). I still have my .22LR at my brothers with a suppressor, I think I paid a total of $150 back in the day for the complete package.

New .22LR suppressor starts at 30 euros out the door, no permit needed:

http://www.ahtihuvila.fi/tuotteet/asetarvikkeet/aanenvaimentimet

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

Ya... I have heard about this ... but I think you can not bring them into the country. I know some friends that were going hunting and one of them brought a suppressor-- and they were stopping off in Finland -- and of course they searched his bags and they confiscated it ... well thats at least his story...

either way ... I hope he makes it ok over there with that

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEGA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kevlars -

Thanks for taking the time to check with your Compliance person, I really appreciate it. I'll ask my guy to check as well and your info may give him a better starting point.

It is interesting that at POE to Europe your person thinks the can might be impounded despite being permitted/licensed and papered. Didn't happen to elaborate on why that might be the case by any chance?

In the end I may just take RADcustom's advice and see about buying one over there and leaving it at the house so that way all I would have to do is deal with the back & forth with the rifle itself.

Thanks again.

</div></div>

Ya England ... Heathrow Airport.

 

[Sami]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya... I have heard about this ... but I think you can not bring them into the country. I know some friends that were going hunting and one of them brought a suppressor-- and they were stopping off in Finland -- and of course they searched his bags and they confiscated it ... well thats at least his story...</div></div>
In Finland it is not a controlled item so I doubt very hard they would confiscate it. If their point of entry was another country where it is not allowed, then yes. Did they confiscate the firearms?

 

[DeltaP]

Post sample when returned

An issue you may want to consider is that while you may be able to export the suppressor, re-importing it may constitute a post sample suppressor.

There may be some avenue for a temporary export for samples/etc., but if my hazy memory is working correctly, this was one of the issues surrounding exportation and re-importation of a suppressor.

best of luck, please let us know what comes of your research.

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Post sample when returned

FAIL.

Once you comply with the ITAR regs for exportation, assuming it is going to be exported/imported without issue, the paperwork to get it back isn't worth the time. You are better off selling it or destroying it. Or just leaving it there.

Time and hassle is money and as someone who seems to understand money, your whole post baffles me.

 

[Roadwild17]

Re: Post sample when returned

My $.02

Find a good lawyer that deals with import / export law.

 

[pilotguy299]

Re: Post sample when returned

I don't know what the regulations are, or what forms are required. But I do know that in your position, I would probably take the easiest and safest route and provided I could afford it, and would just purchase one over there and leave it at one of my residences. Too many bags get lost by the airlines.

When you do find out the real info, please post it so we can see what is involved. Not that I will ever look to take a suppressor overseas, but I am interested in what the process is.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

Well, don't know about all other countries, but you will have NO problems with bringing a suppressor to Norway (from an import POV).
Sweden is much more difficult, so if you are going there, I'd recommend leaving it at home.

 

[ChrisF]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor


Finland and New Zealand are the ONLY countries I know of that you should not have a Issue with in reguards to travelling with a suppressor .

BUT , you need to find out the actual Law & interperation in the European country you intend to go too , and see what applies in that country .

Also , you may have also forgotten , that any country you pass thru ( Transit thru on the way to your destination ) , you will need permits to comply , even for a few hrs .

The bottom line is , due to different laws in all countries & new laws made by paraniod people after 911 , its not worth the time/money or risk with a suppressor , its bad enough with normal bolt action rifles .

Most people seem to think that in Europe suppressors are un restricted , this is not the truth as in some its actually totally banned/illegal , Switzerland use to be OK for cans , but a few yrs back , made them all Illegal .

Be careful & do your home work , IF you really wanted/needed to take rifle , then look at buying a can in Europe or just use your brake .


Later Chris

 

[KYS]

Re: Post sample when returned

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FAIL.

Once you comply with the ITAR regs for exportation, assuming it is going to be exported/imported without issue, the paperwork to get it back isn't worth the time. You are better off selling it or destroying it. Or just leaving it there.

Time and hassle is money and as someone who seems to understand money, your whole post baffles me. </div></div>

+1

This is what I was saying but he would choose not to listen. Asking a question then answering it himself, I am still confused.

 

[wdebo]

Re: Post sample when returned

I know a guy who travels to Africa every year with several suppressors for hunting. I have no idea what needs to be arranged before hand.

 

[GlockBlock]

Bringing this thread back from the dead and I know it. I will be traveling to New Zealand from Texas and then returning in like a week's time for a Red Stag hunt. Looking to take my suppressor with me on the trip. Being that this thread is more than 10 years old and suppressor ownership has come a long way since then I wanted to revive this and see if anyone else has done it more recently. I have filled out all the permits to get it into NZ. My questions are more around is there anything special I need to do to get it back stateside? I read somewhere online that people recommend putting a copy of your tax stamp in the case with the suppressor but that seems like maybe a bad idea. I'd keep a copy of the stamp with me on my person.

 

[sinister]

... I will be traveling to New Zealand from Texas and then returning in like a week's time for a Red Stag hunt. Looking to take my suppressor with me on the trip. I have filled out all the permits to get it into NZ. My questions are more around is there anything special I need to do to get it back stateside? I read somewhere online that people recommend putting a copy of your tax stamp in the case with the suppressor but that seems like maybe a bad idea. I'd keep a copy of the stamp with me on my person.

You still need ATF and ITAR temporary export and import permits.

 

[Bcamos]

Bringing this thread back from the dead and I know it. I will be traveling to New Zealand from Texas and then returning in like a week's time for a Red Stag hunt. Looking to take my suppressor with me on the trip. Being that this thread is more than 10 years old and suppressor ownership has come a long way since then I wanted to revive this and see if anyone else has done it more recently. I have filled out all the permits to get it into NZ. My questions are more around is there anything special I need to do to get it back stateside? I read somewhere online that people recommend putting a copy of your tax stamp in the case with the suppressor but that seems like maybe a bad idea. I'd keep a copy of the stamp with me on my person.

I have no personal experience with this, but I know a guy that went to SA and spent probably 100k on various hunting activities while there. He decided to not take his personal can and rented one from a local guide while he was there. For him, that was a much simpler solution than taking his.

 

[Benfield_Precision]

Re: Travelling overseas with supressor

You cannot take a federally regulated item out of country. Hell, they are even not allowed in some states here in the USA.

If you like foreign prisons, go right ahead. And then prosecution back in the USA, if you return.

Probably been called out already but the above is compete BS

 

[Conqueror]

I’ve looked into this a few times and the amount of paperwork, complexity, and expense was CLEARLY not worth it just to take a suppressor on a trip. Maybe if I personally was an attorney specializing in ITAR issues I’d think about it, otherwise it’s not nearly worth the risk to DIY and that means tracking down a very specialized attorney and paying who knows how much in fees to do it right.

 

[Benfield_Precision]

I thought about it for Africa, turns out that may be the worst place to try. I am getting the paperwork together for New Zealand

 

[Mr.BR]

I have no personal experience with this, but I know a guy that went to SA and spent probably 100k on various hunting activities while there. He decided to not take his personal can and rented one from a local guide while he was there. For him, that was a much simpler solution than taking his.

In SA you can buy Centerfire cans for about 200-250$ a pop so makes sense to use local offerings

In Europe where cans are allowed they cost a bit more but typically under 400$ for a centerfire and 100$ for a rimfire can

In our neck of woods they are non regulated ,so can be bought by anyone over the counter

 

[Conqueror]

That has nothing to do with this thread lol

 

[John L]

My random thoughts based on actually traveling out of the country with a suppressor (yes it can be done). Took mine to South Africa not NZ so your mileage may vary.

First talk to your outfitter in NZ and get his thoughts on rules and regulations, he may or may not know.

The idea of buying one in whatever destination country your traveling to works BUT, most suppressors sold overseas have metric threading, so to get one to fit your rifle may take some prior planning, or an adaptor. Then when done just leave it with your outfitter, it is amazing how much cheaper a suppressor is outside the US and nobody bats an eye about them.

You are NOT exporting or importing anything, that terminology is wrong, you are simply traveling with an item you legally own and returning with it. Just put the item on your 4457 along with your rifle, the form 4457 simply proves you owned something before leaving the US. Call your local international airport CBP office and see what their requirements are as to getting your form signed off. I have to make an appointment at ours and take the gun and suppressor ( and any other high dollar items ex. Rolex watch etc.) that your taking with you. This will avoid any hassles about taxes owed on something purchased outside the country. And take a copy of your tax stamp just to CYA.

The statement below I feel is one of the most important regardless of traveling with a suppressor or not. Travelling out of the country with a firearm can be very dicey depending on where you're going and what country you may be transiting through, even what airline your using. A good travel agent that deals with this very stuff daily is worth their weight in gold.

Use a travel agent that caters to hunters, they will walk you through every detail as to what is needed to travel with your firearm. I use Gracy Travel and Shaun is my go to lady there. Yes it will cost you a few extra dollars, but I have traveled to 4 times to Africa and never had a problem worth writing about.