Rifle Scopes TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

wizdumb

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Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 20, 2009
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Portland, OR
I spoke with a rep from Horus Vision today about the TReMoR 2 reticle that I have in my HDMR scope. Since it didn't come with a manual of any kind, and there is minimal information online about what the milling sizes are, I wanted to know more.

He was kind enough to talk through the reticle with me and shared the specification file, which goes into more detail. Apparently, they are working on a more detailed page for their website, and it's just not ready yet.

I've shared the spec file on my Dropbox account, you can grab it in PDF form here: http://db.tt/7SoQXEWv

I hope this helps other folks using this reticle, and anyone who might be interested in giving it a try.

I'm pretty impressed with it so far, and for the excellent customer service over at Horus. I look forward to working more with the TReMoR2.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

you, sir, are good to go
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thank you so much for taking the time and energy to make this available to those of us who are learning this reticle.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

I've been looking for this for quite some time, and now I am really confused. That is not an intuitive layout. It may work great but it would take some serious study and practice time to get used to it.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been looking for this for quite some time, and now I am really confused. That is not an intuitive layout. It may work great but it would take some serious study and practice time to get used to it.</div></div>

Is there something specific you need help with? I have a pretty good grasp on the millings now, maybe I can assist.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

Something like an H-## makes perfect sense. There is a grid and you can hold off or over to correct for elevation and windage.

The T2 on the other hand you better have been studying.

The vert staff below the cross has gaps that are spaced at .5 and 1, but the lines in between are at what, .2 so you have .2, .5, .8, 1, 1.2, 1.5, ... Huh?

What are the __ __ markers on the vert supposed to be? They are at like 2.3, 3.4, 4.5??? Is that supposed to be the 400/500/600 drops on a 308? If so what round and what MV?

I suppose 200/300 are supposed to be the .5 and 1.2 mil lines?

The dots and the + on the tree don't line up with any mils so I assume they relate to some kind of windage at range system, but it would be bullet specific. They do line up in diagonal lines from the top to the bottom. What system applies?

I get the 5 line chevron is for milling to 0.1 mil, that actually makes sense. But again with the staggered what I would call non-standard 0.5. 0.8, 1.0. 1.2, 1.5, 1.8, 2.0 spacing on the horizontal, yea, that's intuitive? (.5, .75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5 would seem more logical to me)

It doesn't just jump out at ya, and say do it this way, that's for sure.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

Some preliminary information, not well-described in the reticle spec, might help here. Let's consider the horizontal cross hair. Each 1 mil section (except near the center) is divided into four parts -- .2 mils on the outer two, and .3 mils on the inner two.

--|-.2-|-.3-|-.3-|-.2-|--

The first 1 mil section, from the center of the cross hair, is short by .1 mil and is missing the first .2 mil hash. So it measures out to this:

--|-.2-|-.3-|-.4- +

Staying with the horizontal cross hair, let's look at the length of the 1mil hash marks. Starting from the center of the cross hair, moving left, they start at .5mils tall, and increase by .1 mil until they reach .9mils. Then, it drops back down to .5 mils tall, and repeats. The chevron is at the .8 mil hash.
.9 .8 .7 .6 .5
--|---|---|---|---|--- +

The left, right, and top cross hairs are all identical to the above description.

The bottom crosshair is obviously a bit more complicated, but the *general* spacing is very similar to the above.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The vert staff below the cross has gaps that are spaced at .5 and 1, but the lines in between are at what, .2 so you have .2, .5, .8, 1, 1.2, 1.5, ... Huh?</div></div>

To find the pattern, follow the descriptions to the left of the bottom cross hair. The gaps are always .3mils apart, but used as indicators to mark vertical millings, starting at the top from .9mils, then .8, then .7.. down to .5mils.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the __ __ markers on the vert supposed to be? They are at like 2.3, 3.4, 4.5??? Is that supposed to be the 400/500/600 drops on a 308? If so what round and what MV?
I suppose 200/300 are supposed to be the .5 and 1.2 mil lines?</div></div>

The -- -- markers work with the gaps to serve as indicators. The .9 and .8 millings don't have them, but the rest do. Again, see the height descriptions that go from .9 to .5 and you'll see how those hashes are part of that.

This reticle is not a ballistic reticle in the sense that it's designed for one particular round.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The dots and the + on the tree don't line up with any mils so I assume they relate to some kind of windage at range system, but it would be bullet specific. They do line up in diagonal lines from the top to the bottom. What system applies?</div></div>

Forget the wind dots for just a second and let's consider the + and | marks between the dots. You'll notice that the | marks are always indicate 1mil. You'll also notice that the + marks only appear once in each side -- they're simply used to indicate the halfway point of the wind dots.

Now, let's look at the wind dots. The dots are designed to represent wind holds using the Accuracy 1st Wind formula. Unfortunately, I don't see that published anywhere. I believe each dot is supposed to represent some increment of wind at distance, but you need to run their formula to get the value for YOUR rifle.
One example, for a .308 each dot might represent 4mph of wind.
There are two dot sizes -- "Large" (.1 mil dia) dots at every 1 mil line of drop and "small" (.05 mil dia) dots between, at every .5 mil line of drop.

The idea here is to figure out what the dots represent for a specific distance and wind increment value for YOUR rifle. They're not designed around any particular round, but merely spaced based on the similarities of the effects of wind on different rounds. Horus has a nice wind dot calculator on their site that you can use to create a range card for YOUR rifle using the wind dots.
http://www.horusvision.com/tremor_wind_dot_calc.php

More information available on the Horus blog:
http://horusvision.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/how-to-use-the-h58-reticle-by-todd-hodnett/


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get the 5 line chevron is for milling to 0.1 mil, that actually makes sense. But again with the staggered what I would call non-standard 0.5. 0.8, 1.0. 1.2, 1.5, 1.8, 2.0 spacing on the horizontal, yea, that's intuitive? (.5, .75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5 would seem more logical to me)</div></div>

It definitely takes some understanding, but I think does it offers flexibility. If you need to mil range objects at unknown distances, they are rarely going to be an exact .25 mil increment. Doing some basic math, which gets easier when you know the markings and use the reticle more, gives you that flexibility.
.2, .3, 4, .5, .7, .8 are all very easy to mil, without having to count .1 hash marks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It doesn't just jump out at ya, and say do it this way, that's for sure.</div></div>

Well, hopefully all of my typing doesn't go to waste and it helps you to understand the reticle a little better!
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

Wow what a headache i am glad i have a Gen2 XR reticle for my ranging having those wind dots realy makes the reticle to busy and they are not calibrated to anything at all to bust and a waste of time, but thanls for your time researching it and giving the information to confirm i will never require one.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow what a headache i am glad i have a Gen2 XR reticle for my ranging having those wind dots realy makes the reticle to busy and they are not calibrated to anything at all to bust and a waste of time, but thanls for your time researching it and giving the information to confirm i will never require one.
</div></div>

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Well, I'm not here to sell it. I just took the time to study it and wanted to share the info. Personally, I kind of like it, but I also love math.

I think it has real value for shooting outside of the range environment, when you might need to make a snap shot and don't have time to dial it all in on your turrets. Like anything else, it still takes practice and understanding.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

I hadn't noticed that the 1 mil lines got longer, that's useful.


What's the point of the four 0.3 mil gaps on the lower vert?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The -- -- markers work with the gaps to serve as indicators. The .9 and .8 millings don't have them, but the rest do. Again, see the height descriptions that go from .9 to .5 and you'll see how those hashes are part of that.

This reticle is not a ballistic reticle in the sense that it's designed for one particular round.</div></div>

I don't understand the need for the 9.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.5 mil measurements there. It has that capability on the chevron on the upper vertical, and the one at 0.6 and 0.9 doesn't follow the same convention, it is not _ _ .

Intended or not the - - marks on the lower vertical are very close to the hold overs for a 308, depending on the round. They are at odd points to be anything else and the one at 4.5 is of little or no use in relation to the gap in the line between 4.2 and 4.5. BTW, that reinforced the point that it's anything but intuitive, I had to stop and consider the spacing between the 4.2 and the 4.5 to figure out what to type.

I have no doubt that once you learn the system in here that it works, but you are going to have to learn and use it so that your' comfortable and familiar with it, and that's going to be more than a little range time I think.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

XTR, it certainly isn't the H-37 I used to own; and, for a math challenged dummy like I am, it'll be a whole bunch of range time. Sure would be nice if Horus would update their manual offerings to include this reticle as well. Nevertheless, many thanks to "wizdumb"
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

wizdumb, please don't misunderstand my comments. I do appreciate you getting this one up, I've looked all over the place to see what was going on in this thing and came up blank.

I've posted before with questions comparing the T2 and the H-59 and gotten no solid answers, I'm kicking around the idea of doing some tactical shoots and was planning to use one of the two.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

To add fuel to the fire, at SHOT they said that when you dial up with your elevation it changes the holds... every 5 mils you go up changes it.

So the wisdom of the sliding scale of numbers continues with this dream reticle.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wizdumb, please don't misunderstand my comments. I do appreciate you getting this one up, I've looked all over the place to see what was going on in this thing and came up blank.

I've posted before with questions comparing the T2 and the H-59 and gotten no solid answers, I'm kicking around the idea of doing some tactical shoots and was planning to use one of the two.</div></div>

No offense taken, whatsoever! It's not an easy reticle, but I think it is a powerful tool if you take the time to understand it fully. I'm still getting there, I just sat down for an hour and studied the reticle specification until it *clicked* for me.

Your mileage may vary, but I hope that my knowledge sharing proves useful for you and others. I should check with Todd and the folks at Horus just to confirm that *I* am understanding it correctly as well
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Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To add fuel to the fire, at SHOT they said that when you dial up with your elevation it changes the holds... every 5 mils you go up changes it.

So the wisdom of the sliding scale of numbers continues with this dream reticle. </div></div>

If I remember correctly, when your physical elevation changes (in thousands of feet), the wind dot values change accordingly (rather than your dialed elevation). This makes sense because the density altitude will change with elevation.

Dialing elevation would certainly throw the equation/hold values off because you'd be using an improperly spaced dot for a specific distance and wind value.

Either way, I would agree that they should provide more robust documentation around the reticle, paying particular attention to the wind dot values.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hadn't noticed that the 1 mil lines got longer, that's useful.</div></div>
Indeed!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's the point of the four 0.3 mil gaps on the lower vert?</div></div>
The gaps work as indicators, as you quoted me explaining.
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Perhaps I could have explained better.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't understand the need for the 9.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.5 mil measurements there. It has that capability on the chevron on the upper vertical, and the one at 0.6 and 0.9 doesn't follow the same convention, it is not _ _ .</div></div>
It gives the shooter more flexibility. You can use the upper vertical cross hair to mil-range in the same way that you would with the horizontal.
(One small typo correction in your post: <span style="text-decoration: line-through">9.9</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">0.9</span>)

Consider the situation that you're using the lower half of the reticle and doing elevation and wind holds using their speed shooting wind dots. It's easier to keep your focus in the lower half of the reticle than having to reposition. But there is another benefit! The order of the sizes is reversed according to distance in the lower half! Targets at closer ranges require lesser elevation holds AND are going to be physically larger, hence why the .9 mil size comes *first*. The mil sizes get smaller with greater elevation holds/greater distances.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Intended or not the - - marks on the lower vertical are very close to the hold overs for a 308, depending on the round. They are at odd points to be anything else and the one at 4.5 is of little or no use in relation to the gap in the line between 4.2 and 4.5. BTW, that reinforced the point that it's anything but intuitive, I had to stop and consider the spacing between the 4.2 and the 4.5 to figure out what to type. </div></div>
I looked at the spacing of the dots for some time, and couldn't easily determine what they were, exactly, in mils. Try running the wind dot calculator that Horus provides (I linked to it earlier) and it should help you to determine what the dot value is for your rifle/ammo/environment. It may also help you to play with the numbers and try different environments (temp/pressure) just to see how much (or little) the values change.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no doubt that once you learn the system in here that it works, but you are going to have to learn and use it so that your' comfortable and familiar with it, and that's going to be more than a little range time I think.</div></div>
100% agree, but that's true for almost everything, especially shooting long range precision rifles. You need to try it for a reasonable amount of time, give it a fair chance, and see if you get comfortable with it. If you can and do, then it may become a very powerful tool for you. It's probably not for everyone, of course.

Hope this helps!
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like this reticle it is like a hybrid of the GEN II XR, a horus, and a MP-8 dot. Is leupold or Nightforce going to offer it? </div></div>

I could *easily* be remembering incorrectly, but I seem to remember the T2 reticle installed on at least one of Leupold's new scopes at SHOT this year. Don't hold me to that though, email Leupold or Horus and ask someone to verify.
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Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

Sir, have you considered writing Horus to tell them that you'd be happy to help them out writing up a manual?? I'm dead serious
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I've gotten more useful info from your posts here than I know to talk about yet.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: copdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sir, have you considered writing Horus to tell them that you'd be happy to help them out writing up a manual?? I'm dead serious
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I've gotten more useful info from your posts here than I know to talk about yet. </div></div>

Funny you should mention that. I just sent them an email to give a heads up about this thread. Mostly, I wanted to verify that *my* understanding of the reticle is accurate so that I don't spread misinformation about it unknowingly.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

Their dozens of people advertising things in their signatures. The information provided in my post was 100% accurate.
You have your own agenda with anything related to long range training and that is fine. You have earned the right to keep your members from learning anymore about long range shooting than you want them to know. I look forward to discussing this with you in person at the K&M event.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TxShooter63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Their dozens of people advertising things in their signatures. The information provided in my post was 100% accurate.
You have your own agenda with anything related to long range training and that is fine. You have earned the right to keep your members from learning anymore about long range shooting than you want them to know. I look forward to discussing this with you in person at the K&M event. </div></div>

For your information we have just hired a moderator to do nothing but police signatures, to stop people from advertising without being a sponsor.

As far as my agenda, I have no agenda except to say, that is the only place on the site a business can post and advertise that I don't charge so that sort of shoots that in the foot. If I had an agenda, I would simply charge you, or remove it, but yet there are thousands of posts "advertising" competitions, training, etc which is encouraged by me.

A clue for you might be the post above yours, where clearly what you said was laughable made real by the comment, "here we go".

Discuss with me what you like in person, I am easy to find...
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TxShooter63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, at this point our range isn't finished and we have no classes on the schedule so I am not sure what it was I was advertising. </div></div>

Well it would help if you don't derail this topic into something else.

This thread has great info and there is no need to discuss classes.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

Ya know, I don't know squat about a lot of shit. Before the crap hit the fan here, I was learning a whole helluva lot about this reticle. So I second Iggy. Can we get back to learning about this reticle, AND, about resources that might help those of us who aren't the accomplished pros of LR shooting do that?
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

Update: I just got off the phone with Todd Hodnett, who was kind enough to talk my ear off for almost a full hour about the TReMoR 2 reticle. I had asked him to confirm the accuracy of the information in my posts, and he verified that it is.

He had a lot of great stories and detailed information to share, and I'm still mentally digesting the conversation. He seems like a really friendly and helpful guy, and I think he has a great system here.

Anyway, I'm happy to continue sharing what I've learned about this reticle. If anyone has any more questions, feel free to post them on this thread and I'll do my best to answer them in a timely manner.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

You're welcome! Is there an exportation restriction that you hit, which is why you don't have the T2 available? Hope this info helps you out when you are able to shoot with it again!
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wizdumb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Update: I just got off the phone with Todd Hodnett, who was kind enough to talk my ear off for almost a full hour about the TReMoR 2 reticle. I had asked him to confirm the accuracy of the information in my posts, and he verified that it is.

He had a lot of great stories and detailed information to share, and I'm still mentally digesting the conversation. He seems like a really friendly and helpful guy, and I think he has a great system here.

Anyway, I'm happy to continue sharing what I've learned about this reticle. If anyone has any more questions, feel free to post them on this thread and I'll do my best to answer them in a timely manner. </div></div>

At the risk of getting the hook for saying this: I got the Magpul PR DVD set. Todd of course is the featured instructor. I've now hit the Reticles section in which he describes how to make a simple cross-hair into a poor man's Horus reticle. Of course, in the world of the blind (me), the one-eyed man is king, so I'm sure others of you already know all of this. Even so, it's a damn good job he's doing and I'm looking forward to seeing his explication of the Horus system.

Wizdumb, anything further you could share here about the T2 I'd sure appreciate. I'm in the middle of thinking that I probably should have gotten the H59
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(
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

Pretty sure there is a section on that video set that talks about the T2 reticle, which Todd invented and Horus sells.

Is there something specific you'd like to know more about?

Two things that we talked about, which I'm still mentally digesting, were 1) the usefulness of the mil sizes (using those gaps) in the lower half of the reticle for quickly ranging a 12" target (top of shoulders to top of head) and 2) the ability to divide the wind dots by dialing part of your elevation and holding the rest (if you were holding 4 mils of elevation, you can dial 2 mils, then hold two, and your dots are now 1/2 of what they were. 4mph -> 2mph).

I'll need to revisit my notes for confirmation and better examples, of course
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Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

well, at this point, I've got questions I'm not even sure how to ask
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I expect that'll improve when I hit the range with it, soon as it warms a bit.

yes, there is a section on the T2 reticle. I've only given it a once over, so I'll be back to it.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

yes, there is a section on the DVD where Todd clearly explains his reticle. It's so simple, it's genius. He's eliminated having to use wind formulas. All you need is accurate wind speeds. And he says it works with all calibers. Value for each wind dot is, .223 = 3 mph wind, .308 = 4 mph, .300 WM = 5 mph, 6.5mm = 6 mph, .338 LM = 8 mph wind. So for a 12 mph wind with a .308, you would 3 dots (12/4=3). He also states it's accurate to 8,000 ft.. Above that elevation, the value of each dot increases by 1 mph. Simple.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

The poor man's Horus thing in the DVD is to cover a big mistake... They replaced the rings on Travis' rifle and added a Larue Stomp to the mix. <span style="font-style: italic">(More plugs keep the free gear flowing)</span> Anyway, now the rifle has 40MOA of cant, rather than say, oops, we have 40MOA of cant and your rifle won't zero at 100, they zeroed at the top of the reticle.

if you are dumb enough to think that is an effective thing, well I have to bridge in NYC to sell you. Poor man's Horus, well those who aren't paid to "sell" you on the Horus reticle will tell you Shooters have been holding off since before we knew what to call it. It's actually a bad idea to zero a reticle in that fashion. And was only done that way to keep the STOMP on there and look cool guy.
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You want to zero in the center and then adjust the turrets to shift the zero around for hold offs... but then you can't call it a poor man's horus, or is it the Horus is a mentally challenged man's hold over reticle. After all it was designed to help the owner hit an animal hunting when he knew he wouldn't' be practicing at all.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

If the shoe fits, that all I will say...
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As an FYI,

David Tubb's reticle uses MPH and Air Density, actually both Air Density and Density Altitude. It was done well before the Tremor, and everything including the calculations can be done from inside the scope or with a single laminated data chart. No complex math, no shifting calculations, just straight up holds. In fact his includes SD and dissimilar wind drift, and has elements for moving targets. So, again, imitations is the greatest form of flattery.

Look up the new and improved DTR from David, you even have a 200fps swing for caliber so you can zero via muzzle velocity and recorded air density.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

well, Frank, my feet are pretty big, so I doubt yours will fit. That said, what's up, bro? Hodnett tweaking your toes? How about instead of a sideways slam on him, whoever he is, you just provide an alternative analysis so that those of us who are trying to learn this shit can do it w/o having to scrounge through the drama.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wizdumb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the excellent customer service over at Horus. </div></div>

I couldn't get past this part... ROFL
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

well, Frank, my feet are pretty big, so I doubt yours will fit. That said, what's up, bro? Hodnett tweaking your toes? How about instead of a sideways slam on him, whoever he is, you just provide an alternative analysis so that those of us who are trying to learn this shit can do it w/o having to scrounge through the drama.
 
Re: TReMoR 2 Reticle Specifications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wizdumb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the excellent customer service over at Horus. </div></div>

I couldn't get past this part... ROFL</div></div>
?
All I've said was that my experience with their customer service was excellent, which is true.
It's unfortunate that this thread, which I intended to be informative, continues to be derailed.