trigger control stock problem

[timelinex]

So in my everlasting quest to get my recoil management down(have the rifle go perfectly back and then forward), I've been breaking down my form and investigating improvements little piece by little piece.

I'm starting to worry about the fitment of my stock with my body. I think my form has been compensating for these fitment issues, so my groups are good, BUT I can't get the rifle to recoil back perfectly to its original POA.

So I've always held my the stock with my trigger hand like this:

It enabled me to pull my trigger finger straight back, and not disturb the stock. Now I think this might be contributing to not as much control in the recoil though. When I try to do the correct pistol grip hold, it doesn't work. Its unvomfortable and I can't really have a rearward pull. Here is a picture of the proper hold:

Notice my finger is too long! I can't curl it far back enough to get a proper pull, basically because of the length of my finger.

Any recommendations? I know getting a new stock... but if I'm not ready to spend 500+ on a quality stock yet, what can be done till then?

Sorry for the blurry pictures, but it was hard to take them one handed on the iphone!

 

[Megahoser]

Re: trigger control stock problem

You could always cut off the end of your finger...

 

[Sportin Wood]

Re: trigger control stock problem

You don't NEED to spend $500 on a new stock. There are ones out there with a little ibgger palm swell for $250-ish. The HS is a perfect example.

 

[timelinex]

Re: trigger control stock problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't NEED to spend $500 on a new stock. There are ones out there with a little ibgger palm swell for $250-ish. The HS is a perfect example.</div></div>
The thing with the cheaper one's is I've read many are worse than the bedded accustock that comes with my rifle. If anyone has any comments on whether this is true, that would be nice... But either way, I wouldn't want to give up the RELATIVELY great accuracy I've been getting, for a little more comfort.

 

[Rthur]

Re: trigger control stock problem

You don't have to put a stranglehold on the stock. Build your trigger position from the trigger back. You can even shoot with your hand on the side of the stock if it allows you a more consistent trigger pull.

 

[timelinex]

Re: trigger control stock problem

Thats sort of the problem, the trigger pull itself is good BUT the pressure I put on the stock I believe might not be enough to act consistently. I'm not saying I need to choke the stock, but currently the weight I have on it from my trigger finger is from the pads of my middle/ring/thumb fingers. So, it really isn't too comfortable to hold for too long consistently either. Other than the fact that I can't reach the trigger, holding it the way its meant to be held I definitely feel more 'one with the rifle' and in control. I'm not really seeing an easy way to modify the stock to accomadate though.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: trigger control stock problem

is that shag carpet in the blury pictures....?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: trigger control stock problem

try this......skip the gorilla grip and rotate the had so the thumb is over and on top of and in front of the trigger finger,,,,as in the ham of the thumb is resting on the side of the stock....thumb pointed down range, finger pad engaged and moved rearward to you the loose nut behind the trigger.....only the finger pad is engaged.....try it

this technique requires a rear bag.....

 

[kraigWY]

Re: trigger control stock problem

Try this:

Get a salt and pepper shaker. Draw a line on the table. Align the salt and pepper shaker on the line.

Now grip one with a firm grip, and try to move the other along the line with your trigger finger, keeping it perfectly on the line.

Now try the same thing with a more relaxed grip on one while you slide the other back.

You will notice that the tighter you grip one shaker, the harder it is to move the other with the trigger finger with out having lateral movement.

The same thing works with rifles (and pistols). I don't believe there is any reason for a gorilla grip.

If you have a perfect tight position, the shooting hand is not needed to hold the rifle. You should be able to take your shooting hand off the pistol grip, write in your data book, load, etc, without disturbing the rifle in your shoulder, or loosing much of your NPI.

It works the same way in pistol shooting. Use a more relaxed grip with your strong (shooting hand) get the firm heavy grip with your non-shooting support hand.

The tighter you grip anything, the harder it will be to use your trigger finger without latteral movement.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: trigger control stock problem

I think we're getting rather far out on the limb here.

Unless your hand, etc. differ(s) in a huge way from the average/norm, there is no reason why you can't shoot adequately well using a conventional stock. If the stocks were configured so badly that this was not true, conventional stock design would get changed. Honest. Many, many thousand of shooters have managed just fine.

The key to proper trigger manipulation is consistency; pretty much like every other facet of good marksmanship. It's not about follwing a dogmatic preaching; it's about finding what works and sticking with it.

If the concept is not clear enough, the closed educational forum can pretty much straighten that right out. I urge you to join it.

Greg

 

[Hogstooth]

Re: trigger control stock problem

What is your other hand doing on the rear of the stock? Your non shooting hand should have a good grip on the stock or a sling/ sling swivel. The shooting hand only makes up about 20% of your control of the stock and recoil managment, it is simply there to press the trigger for the most part.

Your natrual point of aim and the way you position yourself behind the rifle is mainly what gives you the recoil management to come right back on target.

 

[timelinex]

Re: trigger control stock problem

Ok guys, I wanted to try a couple suggestions before replying, so I tried changing up firing hand positions at the range yesterday and it didnt work out so well. Just ended up being a frustrating day. Instead of .5-.75MOA groups at 200, I was getting 1-2MOA groups, trying to grip the stock differently with my trigger finger. All the groups literally had less than .2MOA of vertical dispersion but HUGE horizontal stringing. So I'm assuming that all the new ways I tried definitely did no good, and its causing horizontal pressures or movement in the stock.

 

[timelinex]

Re: trigger control stock problem

So my last picture was blurry and not to great, so decided to make a video. Here's a video of my current trigger pull. Does anyone see anything wrong with holding my trigger hand the way I do or the trigger finger movement.

Click Here to see the video.

 

[Hogstooth]

Re: trigger control stock problem

Well for one once you touch the trigger and get your placement, I shouldn't be able to see your trigger finger moving.

The difference between your 1st and 2nd press, I can see how you hooked your finger around the trigger on the 2nd shot.

Looks like you got a long way to go, you need to steadily build the pressure on the trigger till the rifle fires. You are moving your finger way too fast, it starts off slow and smooth then speeds up at the end. Your crosshairs on the target shouldn't move when you are dry firing, make sure you have something to aim at while you are dry firing. The movement will tell you if you are doing it correctly.

 

[timelinex]

Re: trigger control stock problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hogstooth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well for one once you touch the trigger and get your placement, I shouldn't be able to see your trigger finger moving.

The difference between your 1st and 2nd press, I can see how you hooked your finger around the trigger on the 2nd shot.

Looks like you got a long way to go, you need to steadily build the pressure on the trigger till the rifle fires. You are moving your finger way too fast, it starts off slow and smooth then speeds up at the end. Your crosshairs on the target shouldn't move when you are dry firing, make sure you have something to aim at while you are dry firing. The movement will tell you if you are doing it correctly. </div></div>
Thanks for the feedback. Are you talking about the jerkiness and fastness leading up to the trigger itself? Its a savage accutrigger, so the middle blade has no effect on the trigger itself, just that it needs to be depressed before the actual trigger will move. So I wouldn't consider my ready position being on the metal blade, but rather having the blade fully depressed.

When I dry fire at home, I have nowhere to aim at longer than 10 yards, so its pretty useless trying to see POA movement. But I dry fire at the range, up to 200 yards, as well and don't see any reticle movement from the fire.

 

[UNCIVILIZED]

Re: trigger control stock problem

As to short range dry firing, there are things which you can use as targets where you should be able to discern movement. Graph paper with small grids, & maybe highlight a pair of intersecting lines, or a section of squares while leaving a small uncolored set of "crosshairs" on the paper.
A topo map, a magazine with appropriately sized text, Zeiss optical resolution test pattern... And such things work outdoors/at the range as well. Plus they'll let you see how good your position on the gun/natural point of aim is, even without touching the trigger at all.

One other thought is to break down the whole process into steps, from getting into position, to grasping the weapon, to trigger pull, & follow through. Might help to write'em down, literally, & what you [personally] do for each step. As when I use said process, I think about each step in a lot of detail. And later on I'll go back & add more notes. Both as to what's involved with each part of the task, plus what I did well, & what needs more work. Not just for shooting either, anything that requires a good deal of concentration.

If you're behind the rifle for a while without moving, likely you'll notice what feels awkward, & those things might be affecting what happens to the negative when you break the trigger. AKA muscling the gun [into position].
Also it'll let you start to see the little things a lot better, down to how your breathing & heart beat move things. There's a lot more to dry firing than just a good squeeze of the trigger, it's the whole process.

You mention the idea of a different stock perhaps helping. It may, it may not... a fair amount of such things is mental, as well as practice. But, if you want to try something with a different grip shape to see if it helps, find a wooden stock for your barreled action. And then get some Bondo/epoxy, glass cloth, & sandpaper. There's a good number of threads on here where guys have done as much to make trainers, or stocks with custom grips for their full sized rifles.

Coldboremiracle's "Budget .223 Build" - http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=179149&Number=1993488#top

77/22. Walnut to Tactical, and Alderleet story - http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2539439

 

[timelinex]

Re: trigger control stock problem

That second custom mold looks really good!

Well the problem with using anything at a short distance like at my house, is my vortex viper is useless at such short distances. It doesn't really focus in on anything to great until at least 50 yards away. Which is fair, considering the parallax adjustment has a minimum at 50 yards and its a 6.5-20x scope. The only place time this is bad for me, is for these at home situations.

 

[wirehand]

Re: trigger control stock problem

Have you seen this? IOTA

 

[timelinex]

Re: trigger control stock problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wirehand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you seen this? IOTA </div></div>
Sweet, thanks for the link. I made a quick homemade version and worked pretty good.

I can't reproduce anykind of lateral movement from trigger pull though, even when I zoom in on an extremely small dot, there is absolutely no movement. I am in prone, and with the rifle sturdy against my shoulder, even me trying to do horrible finger pull, there is no movement. The only thing I can think of , is it because Im on soft carpet and its absorbing the small movement?

 

[timelinex]

Re: trigger control stock problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't reproduce anykind of lateral movement from trigger pull though, even when I zoom in on an extremely small dot, there is absolutely no movement. I am in prone, and with the rifle sturdy against my shoulder, even me trying to do horrible finger pull, there is no movement. The only thing I can think of , is it because Im on soft carpet and its absorbing the small movement? </div></div>
Anyone have any comment on that? Is it the carpet? Unfortunatly I live in a condo and cant exactly go outside and try it, unless I want my neighbors to freak out!