Trigger hand placement question.

[Nathantc]

Ok so from what i see just about everywhere from anyone who shoots ELR or competition, I should be placing the pad of my finger center on the trigger, and most keep their thumb on the same side of the rifle as their hand. While this is not uncomfortable, its causing me personally some issue. I can simply shoot a better group holding the pistol grip with my thumb across and the trigger in the first fold of my finger. Trying to do what everyone says is the correct way causing some issue with the group and poi vs poa.

Photos below because i suck as describing this. Just spent the last couple hours, laying prone on my semi-trailer deck, dry fire practicing on a white piece of bark on a tree 500 yards off. Every time i use the "correct" hold, my point of aim shifts to one side or the other. When i use the other way, i can keep my point of aim on point thru the follow thru

Any info or suggestions. I'm not a competition shooter, no do i aspire to be, just want the best performance out of myself, as i can get.

 

[6.5SH]

Mechanics of the Firing Hand

Sniper's Hide, Precision Rifle Instruction, Training Shooters, Acccuracy International Rifle Bipod, Fundamentals of Marksmanship Mechanics

www.snipershide.com

 

[Lowlight]

Angles matter,

But not on the pad of the finger, grip is too loose, finger is not a 90 degree...

 

[Nathantc]

Angles matter,

But not on the pad of the finger, grip is too loose, finger is not a 90 degree...

i have a better grip, with a straight pull on the trigger when firing. Just no good way to place my hand, and hold my phone for the photo lol. It's more awkward than it looks. I got long fingers, large hands, and long arms. Being 6'5" makes things not "fit" me as well as others. I feel that may be one reason the thumb over, trigger in the fold works better. On paper, and in practice. All shooting and practice done in prone. I know from my other rifles, holding my hand with the thumb on the side works better when standing, or bench type position. Just seem to have ill effects when in prone. I'll have to get someone else to get a photo of my grip when i'm in a shooting position, and a photo of my entire position. Maybe that will help.

Recently had a better shooter, use my rifle, and ammo. and consistently stay between 3/4" and 1/4" groups. My best so far is 1 1/4". So i know i'm the issue somewhere. This being my first magnum rifle i've owned, and shot for groups, had a hunting rifle in 7 mag but never cared about being sub 2" at 100 yards with it. This rifle is in 300 PRC. So recoil is playing a part in ways i'm not accustomed to. Multiple people suggest something im doing with my trigger hand and finger.

 

[Nathantc]

Mechanics of the Firing Hand

Sniper's Hide, Precision Rifle Instruction, Training Shooters, Acccuracy International Rifle Bipod, Fundamentals of Marksmanship Mechanics

www.snipershide.com

awesome read, and pointed out one detail i'm doing wrong.

""firing hand’s graspers to pull against, providing even, straight-back pressure.""

i'm using my off hand, in the hook on the stock to pull back into my shoulder, not sure why, but i thought using the grip on the rifle would cause a torque effect of sorts. So in intentionally do not pull with my trigger hand. Ill try that tomorrow with more dry fire practice to see if i can stay on target more consistently. Thanks for the link.

 

[theLBC]

how hard are you pulling back on the grip with your graspers?
i was taught young to rest your thumb in a neutral position because 1) trigger motion puts tension in the web between your thumb and trigger finger, and 2) because it helps keep you from steering the poa with your hand instead of having a natural point of aim.
for me, pulling straight back with my 3 other fingers firmly gives me solid control and my trigger finger is completely free.
you might try something behind the grip if you think big hands are the root of your issue.

 

[Nathantc]

how hard are you pulling back on the grip with your graspers?
i was taught young to rest your thumb in a neutral position because 1) trigger motion puts tension in the web between your thumb and trigger finger, and 2) because it helps keep you from steering the poa with your hand instead of having a natural point of aim.
for me, pulling straight back with my 3 other fingers firmly gives me solid control and my trigger finger is completely free.
you might try something behind the grip if you think big hands are the root of your issue.

not pulling rearward at all. After reading the link above im thinking that may be my issue. I try and relax my entire hand as much as possible and focus ONLY on my index finger. According to the link above, that is incorrect. So ill give what you just said a try in the morning with more dry fire practice.

 

[ma smith]

FWIW I agree you are not getting enough tension on the grip (pulling back) and your angles are off as a result...
its not the grip size but it looks that way from the pics, like there is too much reach from grip to trigger shoe

Another question, can you activate (nervious system, etc) your trigger finger without moving other fingers? IE if you "air guitar" your trigger finger? Thats a skill you can practice off the rifle as well, as it needs to be engrained as a neuropathway.

Good luck either way and let us know how it goes...

 

[Nathantc]

Another question, can you activate (nervious system, etc) your trigger finger without moving other fingers? IE if you "air guitar" your trigger finger? Thats a skill you can practice off the rifle as well, as it needs to be engrained as a neuropathway.

oddly, doing that my thumb never moved, but my middle finger tried to follow suit. Never tried, or noticed that before.

 

[smoothy8500]

Yes, it takes a lot of practice to get the fingers to act independently: pulling back that 15 to 18 lbs, positively marrying up the index finger to the trigger, etc.

That's where extensive dry fire practice comes into play to build those skills.

 

[Dthomas3523]

In person instruction is going to be your best option.

Also, you can’t really use your current results or your current comfort level as a gauge of what does and doesn’t work.

“I simply shoot a better group” yet both grips would likely get an overhaul, so it doesn’t matter and you’ll come out shooting better than anything you’re doing now.

That’s not to pick on you personally. I see it in every class. “That’s not comfortable”. Well yea, you’ve been doing it wrong (or at least partially wrong) for a long time and wrong is what feels comfortable.

 

[Nathantc]

In person instruction is going to be your best option.

Also, you can’t really use your current results or your current comfort level as a gauge of what does and doesn’t work.

“I simply shoot a better group” yet both grips would likely get an overhaul, so it doesn’t matter and you’ll come out shooting better than anything you’re doing now.

That’s not to pick on you personally. I see it in every class. “That’s not comfortable”. Well yea, you’ve been doing it wrong (or at least partially wrong) for a long time and wrong is what feels comfortable.

i don't feel that you are picking on me.
I know i need advice on how im shooting to become a better shooter. So i asked here were a lot of guy do competition shooting. Learned a long time ago, if you want to know more about a given subject, stop thinking you know all about that given subject. So here i am. What i do, does net good results. What i do does not get CONSISTENT good result. Sure i can shoot a 5 round group nearly in the same hole. One out of every 10 shot groups or so. With the groups ranging from 1.25" to .75" on average. I want the lower of the two to be my most common, not the other way around. I want less "flyers" that when shooting i know damn well it was me that did it.

 

[Newbie2020]

Get your hand and length of pull set up so that you’ve got your trigger finger at 90 degrees to the trigger shoe

set the trigger shoe in the middle third of the pad

Do not put the trigger shoe in the crack of the knuckle. That will cause pulling of the rifle off point of aim

pull straight back “firmly” with your graspers. Don’t worry about the exact amount of force.

only use your support hand to manipulate the rifle laterally and vertically using the rear bag NOT pulling back—-leave that to the graspers of the shooting hand

 

[Nathantc]

ok, so it's a nice cool morning (not common) so i was out doing more dry fire practice. This time pulling with my trigger hand and not my off hand. HUGE difference keeping point of aim exactly thru the trigger pull and follow thru. Oddly now its backwards. When pulling if i have my thumb wrapped around the grip, i cannot hold as steady and move off target when i pull. Testing this with the rifle on safe, pulling harder than usual to see if there is a shift. So now the 90* trigger finger center of pad, thumb on the side type of grip makes more sense. Now that is working far better than anything. Also ended up moving my scope back towards me 2 notches in the rail. Didn't notice it until this morning, me correcting me, to fit the eye relief. So tha may have helped as well. Added a new butt pad system since my last live fire that is a little less than 1/4" longer, so that probably compounded it a bit. Anyway, less eye strain and a more natural head position. This also made me need to adjust my cheek rest a bit to make up for the other changes. I don't know if the scope seemed extra clear due to being early and not directly in the sun, cooler weather (less mirage), or the fact i was more comfortable and not cooking in direct sunlight in 100*F+ weather. Combination of all maybe?

Anyway i feel that link posted here got me on the correct track as i was honestly moving farther from doing what is mentioned there. That was the most stable dry fire practice i've ever had in my life. Before this morning it has always been a game of trying to pull the trigger right as i get on target. Like trying to catch it so to speak. This was much more stable and i can stay on target, pull when ready, and stay on target thew the entire ordeal. Never been able to do that before. Can't wait to re-zero and try for another group. (i wait for zero wind days)

Side note. I got accustomed to using grips with a palm shelf as it helped with keeping the trigger hand relaxed, NOW i see why everyone else says that shelf is pointless. Crazy how i was looking for a crutch to solve an issue when the issue was of my own creation. Now the new challenge will be breaking that bad habit that i have done all my life. In this case, muscle memory is my enemy.

 

[Nathantc]

Get your hand and length of pull set up so that you’ve got your trigger finger at 90 degrees to the trigger shoe

set the trigger shoe in the middle third of the pad

Do not put the trigger shoe in the crack of the knuckle. That will cause pulling of the rifle off point of aim

pull straight back “firmly” with your graspers. Don’t worry about the exact amount of force.

only use your support hand to manipulate the rifle laterally and vertically using the rear bag NOT pulling back—-leave that to the graspers of the shooting hand

we must have been typing at the same time
Everything you just said worked amazingly this morning, like in my previous comment. All of that i have been doing incorrectly my entire life. Seems silly im sure, but im pretty damn excited seeing what i was seeing. Over 100 dry fire pulls this morning all flawless. Keep in mind i have a 2" white dot painted on tree bark exactly 500 yards from my set up to practice on. If i can stay on at 500, 100 should be cake. You guys are awesome. Ill keep posting here after i get the chance to try again for groups. Im feeling pretty good about this. Just want a LOT more dry fire practice to break old habits first.

 

[Nathantc]

Here is my practice setup/location for dry fire. For live fire i move the truck and trailer out into the pasture for obvious safety reasons. Its is the most stable thing i have available to me that is over the grass enough to see the target. I lay an old comforter down over the deck when shooting for comfort reasons. Posting these photos to give an idea.

 

[1moaoff]

Get rid of the monopod and hand shelf.

Use a rear bag.

 

[1moaoff]

How well can you consistently shoot normal cartridges? Example for comparison please.

Spend the money on good instruction!!!!

I understand your having a hard time with hand placement. I have crazy nerve damage and muscle damage in my firing hand but it can be overcome with practice and basics.

 

[Nathantc]

i am not sure if it was a fluke or not. 3 3rd groups, 2 of them were almost exactly 3/4" and one was right at 1" in a line. (like a tight vertical string). Shot one group, put away the rifle, hours later shot 2 more about 30 min apart. Using the monopod again, but this time flowing instruction on grip. So now i don't know if it was me, the adjustable butt pad, the new action screw torque reduced from 60 to 55 inch lbs, The fact the scope mount was moved one notch back towards my eye and re torqued, much cooler, and more humid weather. Idk. I also cleaned the barrel to the best of my ability and wasted 5 rounds right after to "season" the barrel when all the other changes were made. So a lot has been tampered with but positive results. Just need some actual consistent results.

To answer your question 1moa0ff i can shoot under 1" at 100 yards usually when the ammo and rifle are capable. The heaviest recoil i've ever dealt (shooting for groups) with was a 6.5cm savage 12fv. So a mildly heavy rifle with a light recoil. This is only 16.6 lbs as pictured, the brake helps, but i have a better one on the way.

I feel i've made progress, just wanna see it stay under 1" consistently. Not just on a good day. I will say this though. Being able to adjust the butt pad and get more inline with the bore, as well as NOT relaxing my trigger hand, makes for a HUGE difference in how well i can keep the target in the scope thru the shot.

The oem butt pad system was used when trying to shoot for groups originally. With the monopod i was getting horizontal stringing, with a bag i was getting vertical, unsupported it was an acceptable group, but was more of a round pattern. With the current setup, I'm not seeing stringing in every group.

 

[BoltRunner]

In person instruction is going to be your best option.

Also, you can’t really use your current results or your current comfort level as a gauge of what does and doesn’t work.

“I simply shoot a better group” yet both grips would likely get an overhaul, so it doesn’t matter and you’ll come out shooting better than anything you’re doing now.

That’s not to pick on you personally. I see it in every class. “That’s not comfortable”. Well yea, you’ve been doing it wrong (or at least partially wrong) for a long time and wrong is what feels comfortable.

I have to second this @Nathantc Im 6'6" and wear 3X gloves had the exact same problem thumb over grip and some other things just felt more comfortable as I had been shooting that way for 20+ years. LOP just never seemed long enough for me, thumb over felt better, my cheek placement was wrong and when I started doing everything the correct way it felt like shit at first. I started going to the range 3-4 days a week practicing correct hand placement, trigger pull, cheek/head placement, until it started to feel comfortable again but it took some real time. Lowlight has a ton of videos on YouTube you can use for help if you don't do 1 on 1 training...

 

[Nathantc]

I have to second this @Nathantc Im 6'6" and wear 3X gloves had the exact same problem thumb over grip and some other things just felt more comfortable as I had been shooting that way for 20+ years. LOP just never seemed long enough for me, thumb over felt better, my cheek placement was wrong and when I started doing everything the correct way it felt like shit at first. I started going to the range 3-4 days a week practicing correct hand placement, trigger pull, cheek/head placement, until it started to feel comfortable again but it took some real time. Lowlight has a ton of videos on YouTube you can use for help if you don't do 1 on 1 training...

This rifle has made me realise 14.5" LOP is about perfect for me. Beforehand i stayed with the 14.25". That .25" seems small but it made a difference. Im sure you have noticed this being tall like me, but being able to move the butt pad away from the cheek rest is important. Still feel it could be longer, though for off hand the rifle gets pretty far away from me, making it seem heavier than it is. So its a balancing act so to speak.

 

[hlee]

You know, you can dry fire in the comfort of your home, with the AC blasting if necessary. All you need is something to aim at. No need to swelter on your flat bed.

 

[Nathantc]

You know, you can dry fire in the comfort of your home, with the AC blasting if necessary. All you need is something to aim at. No need to swelter on your flat bed.

true, but aiming at 500 yards at something about 2" in size, will show you much more error than something to close to even focus the scope on.

 

[smoothy8500]

You know that .1 mil is still .1 mil at 500 yards, right?

 

[Nathantc]

You know that .1 mil is still .1 mil at 500 yards, right?

yes, but that does not matter at all when you are in the house looking at something to close to focus the parallax on. Not to mention nothing beats the clarity of daylight. Also, i live in a mobile home. Though you cannot feel it, it moves every time someone walks around, or any movement at all happens. You cannot feel it, but you damn sure can see it in a scope.

 

[smoothy8500]

Well, most of us have a window or patio door to get the necessary 25 to 45 yds, unless I'm not understanding your dilemma?

Regardless, if you're indoors only and notice parallax movement while dry firing, then its movement or changing cheekweld. Still something to work on.

 

[Nathantc]

Well, most of us have a window or patio door to get the necessary 25 to 45 yds, unless I'm not understanding your dilemma?

the part where i have children who are home when i'm off work, and where i said a mobile home moves when people move within it. Maybe you don't understand how that affects things when looking thru a scope. Its a trailer house in a 20 acer feild lol so yes, outside on my step deck is usually my best, most undisturbed place to be. Also i work outside, so i don't think of it as punishment to be outdoors. Hope that clears up your confusion

 

[smoothy8500]

Oh, I didn't pick up on the floor moving and not a stable base. I get it now.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Without any comment on the above posts, I use this grip on all of my AR's.

Greg